Buying Question

[Mark Callanan]

I am looking at a Parker
Nice gun but it isnt now how it came out of the factory
If Delgreog says it is real is that as good as it gets?
Is a Letter From Delegrego all that I would need to prove the Parker legit?
If you would rather tell me in PM feel free to do that
Thanks...

[Jim DiSpagno]

If there are surviving records in the Parker books, then go to the serial number font here and see. Someone will check the Serialization book if you post the number. Then condition will determine a fair price. Post pics if you can. The knowledgable folks here will respond. Jim

[Rick Losey]

yes - pictures if possible, the serial number may help if it is in the book

what is it about the gun that you know has been altered? cut barrels, restocked or refinished?

[Mark Callanan]

How about this
No matter what the Parker in the end is Delgrego The ultimate guru?
Would a letter from them make the gun correct no matter what the book says?
Again I understand this may be a sensitive issue respond in Private Message if you want

[John Taddeo]

Holy cow, Im on the edge of my seat here. How does one authenticate a gun that does not match the book? There sure seems to be more than a few. Some say the gun isn't right ,Some say the book isn't always right. Sure can make a difference when buying or selling.

[Dave Suponski]

John, That comes with experience and looking at a LOT of Parkers.

[John Taddeo]

Dave, you are absolutely right. Although, I have seen guns on this forum with matching numbers that do not calaborate with the book and the reviews are often mixed. This will at times put the buyer an\or seller in an uneasy spot as in a "defending her honor" kind of way , not to mention negotiating prices. Understandable is the fact that records are at times hazy and inconsistancies are ever present. As a layman I have dealt with Larry, respect his knowledge and his craft, and rely on him and his opinion whenever he will give me the opportunity.

[will evans]

Mark, I might be willing to give you a letter. You could even tell people my letter is actually a Delgrego letter. The point is that letters don't mean much in our World of computers and printers.

After reading this board a few weeks it appears the above statement regarding looking at a LOT of Parkers is the gospel. That, and arming yourself with as much information as possible. I have a serialization book, and I just ordered both volumes of The Parker Story from DGJ. They still have blemished sets for $195. My favorite tool is an inside dial caliper bore gauge with long legs that I picked up on eBay for $50. I can measure the length of the choke and the constriction pretty accurately. With those tools I feel I can at least walk away with a pretty comfortable feeling regarding the barrels, but fit, finish, checkering and the rest? While I don't wish I were older, I do wish I had more experience. I'm hopeful my soon to arrive copies of The Parker Story will shorten the learning curve on the rest of the details.

[Bill Davis]

Mark--The gun wouldn't happen to be a GHE SKEET gun--would it? If so--there is plenty of conversation about it on Trapshooters.com.

[Mark Callanan]

Mark--The gun wouldn't happen to be a GHE SKEET gun--would it? If so--there is plenty of conversation about it on Trapshooters.com.

Yes thats the gun
This all started many days ago
And whats on there is all over the place as you know
Not helping the seller or a buyer
Thats why I post here to try and get real information

[Mark Callanan]

Mark, I might be willing to give you a letter. You could even tell people my letter is actually a Delgrego letter. The point is that letters don't mean much in our World of computers and printers.

After reading this board a few weeks it appears the above statement regarding looking at a LOT of Parkers is the gospel. That, and arming yourself with as much information as possible. I have a serialization book, and I just ordered both volumes of The Parker Story from DGJ. They still have blemished sets for $195. My favorite tool is an inside dial caliper bore gauge with long legs that I picked up on eBay for $50. I can measure the length of the choke and the constriction pretty accurately. With those tools I feel I can at least walk away with a pretty comfortable feeling regarding the barrels, but fit, finish, checkering and the rest? While I don't wish I were older, I do wish I had more experience. I'm hopeful my soon to arrive copies of The Parker Story will shorten the learning curve on the rest of the details.




I have all of the above books
They are of no help on this Parker
No thanks on a fake letter lol
Thanks for trying...

[Bill Davis]

Mark--I expressed my opinion as honestly and fairly as I could on TS. I sell a lot of items on that site. It's a very nice gun, handsome gun, great shooting gun, with original parts etc. but it NOT an original skeet gun. The gun, according to the serialization book started life in 1923 as a 28 inch GHE with DT and splinter FE. Skeet was not even a word before 1926! It's a nice #1 frame gun that has been converted sometime over the last 75 years to a skeet configuration. The beavertail looks good. The 26 inch barrels look good. I know the seller claims Del Grego denies working on the gun. Buy it as a shooter and enjoy it. Get a factory letter and convince yourself. Hey--maybe I'm wrong--it's happened before. Maybe Parker did the work or Remington! My money is on Del Grego. Good luck to you.

[Richard Abraham]

That's my gun. It sure has started a fire storm on the net! I will try to post some pix here to help. I was the one who called DelGrego. They said send some pix and they would give an opinion. They said they would talk to anyone interested if they were called.I his mind the gun is legit no matter what the books say. They said the receiver might have been recolored but they couldn't say who. They said the barrels looked good. keels in place bar at the end of the matting etc. I know its a 1923 gun and I know remingtons repair records are lacking. there is no remington date code on the gun or barrels. Only the skeet in and skeet out stamps. Choking is .005 and .007.They did say I had an early "BIG" beaver tail that was used on early target guns. Checkering pattern was legit also.
I will try to post some pix for you to ponder.

[Chuck Bishop]

I've been reading that thread and purposely did not reply. Only the Stock Book is available for this gun and it verifys 28" barrels. If the gun was returned to either Meriden or Illion, it's not in the order books. To me, the gun looks worked on and not just the barrels but without more detailed pictures of the forend including the reinforcing rod, water table, and sides of the receiver, it's not an absolute. To my eye, the butt stock looks original but the case colors on the bottom of the receiver look too splotchy. That's why I'd like to see the water table.

If that's all the pictures the seller sent to Del Grego, Del Grego didn't have much to base an opinion on. From what I'm told, they don't keep track of guns worked on by the serial number, they keep track of the name of the person who sent them the gun. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me on this.

Either way, from what I've seen, it's a nice gun but until I would get further proof to originality, I wouldn't pay as if original.

[Chuck Bishop]

I see that Mr. Abraham posted while I was typing. Mr. Abraham, can you post a picture of the water table and the end of the forend? The checkering pattern doesn't look like any I've seen. The only way to see if the forend wood is original is to take the metal off and look for the S/N stamped in the wood.

[Rich Anderson]

My 2 cents worth (and you can get change from that:rotf:). If the serialization books says it was made befor the game of skeet was even invented thats a big red flag to it being a true skeet gun. I once had a vent rib DHE 12 that was stamped skeet in/skeet out but it was not an original skeet gun:eek: The checkering isn't correct on the forarm. The only letter that matters would be from the PGCA. Skeet guns can bring a premium dollar and IMHO this isn't an original skeet gun. All the true skeet guns I have seen were mfg after the Parker Gun Co was sold to Remington. If the receiver says PArker Bros than (once again my opinion) it's not a true skeet gun.

At the end of the day remember this "it is much easier to buy a gun than to sell a gun".

[paul stafford jr]

nice gun i agree with rich, the forend look different than my 1923 ghe. i'll post a picture if i can figure out how to do it again. mine # is 205xxx but as luck would have it most of 1923 records are lost

[Eric Eis]

Ok I was not going to reply but since I have a couple of Skeet guns there are a couple of points that makes me wonder, first Skeet in/Skeet out was used during the Remington era, the gun is double trigger and has a DHBP both not seen on Skeet guns and even if there is a serial number stamped in the wood of the forend that does not mean it's factory. Also a 12 ga Skeet gun on a 1 frame I haven't seen that either. To me too many questions, great gun to shoot yes but to pay a premium for, no. That's my two cents. Eric

[Bruce Day]

Eric knows Parker skeet guns.


Eric, could this be a standard game gun that went back to Parker in the late 20's/early 30's to be rebarreled and beavertail forend added to be suitable for the new game of skeet? The beavertail forend looks early Parker to me.

Does the absence of a Parker Bros or Parker overload proofed stamp pin a return date to the mid 1920's?


This assumes return records are not available and the history must be discerned through indicators on the gun. It looks like factory work to me.

[Richard Abraham]

Here's the best I can do. The splotchy bottom and sides looks like patina from hands from carrying and shooting. Any how I think I shot pix of everything you asked for.

[John Taddeo]

Im back on the edge of my seat.:corn:

[Eric Eis]

Eric knows Parker skeet guns.


Eric, could this be a standard game gun that went back to Parker in the late 20's/early 30's to be rebarreled and beavertail forend added to be suitable for the new game of skeet? The beavertail forend looks early Parker to me.

Does the absence of a Parker Bros or Parker overload proofed stamp pin a return date to the mid 1920's?


This assumes return records are not available and the history must be discerned through indicators on the gun. It looks like factory work to me.

Bruce that's my gut feeling too, that it was sent back and rebarreled the forend look early to me too, not what you would find on a "Skeet Gun" per say and to me it looks like factory work. Like a said nice gun but not sure it should carry a premium for being a Skeet gun.

[paul stafford jr]

heres a foto of my 1923 forendhttp://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=416&pictureid=4538

[paul stafford jr]

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=416&pictureid=4540

[paul stafford jr]

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=416&pictureid=4539

[Chuck Bishop]

To me, the case colors on the water table look correct. Is that where the S/N is typically stamped on a BTF? Just asking for my own knowledge.

[John Taddeo]

Great (info packed) stuff guys, in the absence of a Sunday afternoon game. Thanks.

[David Noble]

Mr. Abraham, what does the reinforcement rod in you forearm screw in to? I see no provision in the forearm iron, or the inletting for it.
Mr. Stanford's gun shows the usual beavertail forearm iron.

[Dean Romig]

David, Mr Abraham's forend iron is correct for a BTFE as is the reinforced forend lug on the barrels.

[David Noble]

Well, again I ask, what does the reinforcement screw in the front of the beavertail screw into? All I've ever seen or owned screwed into an extension of the forend iron. I'm not seeing that in Mr. Abraham's pictures, but do in Mr. Stanford's.

[Dean Romig]

I can see it.

Maybe if Mr. Abraham could show us the forend iron at a very slightly different angle we all could see it.

[David Noble]

Dean, looking at the inletting in the wood for the forend iron, there is no provision for the extended iron or a hole evident for the screw to pass through. Are we looking at the same pics on page two of this thread? In the second set of pics Mr. Abraham shows the inletting for the forearm iron ( the picture showing the serial number stamped in the wood), it looks like the inletting for a standard forearm iron and no thru hole.
Am I missing something here? Quick link below.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22269&d=1360539976

Perhaps pics from a different angle would make it more evident to my feeble old eyes.

[Dean Romig]

Thank for showing that David. I stand corrected. I was looking at the iron only which appears to have the thicker forward section that is necessary to drill and tap for the reinforcing screw. Now that you point out that picture of the wood I agree with you.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Boys my ole daddy told me a long time ago "When in doubt get out"

[Eric Eis]

Boys my ole daddy told me a long time ago "When in doubt get out"

I've said my peace and Gary summed it up......As they say on some TV show I'm "out". Eric

[Richard Abraham]

OK, I took it apart for you. I hope you can clearly see the hole through the forend, the hump in the iron, the screw and the comparison between this and the splinter forend I took apart also. You can see the upward curve of the skeet iron as opposed to the flat iron of the splinter.
I don't know what else I can do for you.

[Bruce Day]

Looks like a Parker forend and barrels to me, but what do I know?

Its not The Parker Skeet Gun as defined in The Parker Story Chapter IX Trap and Skeet Guns and listed in the 1934 Skilled Hands Remington Parker Catalog as The Parker Skeet Gun , but IMHO it is a Parker skeet gun that is factory modified post initial manufacture for skeet shooting. Lots of guns went back to Parker or Remington for re-work or additions . I and my friends are fortunate to own some of them.

If I was looking for a skeet gun or a 12ga for close shooting, I would give consideration to this one. Its a lot fancier than the guns Billy Bob , Blind Bat and I ( Smedley) go for walks with in the cow pastures.

[Dave Suponski]

David, Please note the extreme forward end of the forend iron on these two examples. note the distance from the forward most screw. That area is a tapped boss to receive the screw that runs from the tip. This helps seure the iron to the wood on beavertail equipped guns.

[Bill Murphy]

This could have been a gun factory equipped with a beavertail. For anyone to describe this as a factory skeet gun is a bit ridiculous. Del Grego couldn't have had all the facts to make the statement that is claimed. In my opinion, the Del Grego shop converted this gun into a skeet gun and stamped it, like they did many others. The poster got good information on the trapshooters forum and got the same information here. It's not an original skeet gun. Nice gun though. By the way, I'm not clear on the present barrel length. Is it 26" or 28"?

[Mark Callanan]

This could have been a gun factory equipped with a beavertail. For anyone to describe this as a factory skeet gun is a bit ridiculous. Del Grego couldn't have had all the facts to make the statement that is claimed. In my opinion, the Del Grego shop converted this gun into a skeet gun and stamped it, like they did many others. The poster got good information on the trapshooters forum and got the same information here. It's not an original skeet gun. Nice gun though. By the way, I'm not clear on the present barrel length. Is it 26" or 28"?

Bill

The barrel length is 26" the book says this gun should be 28" thats how this all started

[Mark Callanan]

I want to make sure of something here
Richard who owns this gun and I have talked several time over the last 2-3 weeks about me buying this gun
He has been honest and straight to answere all of my questions as best he could
To try and help he even took his time to ask Mr Del Grego
The reson I have posted questions here is due to my lack of knowledge not my mis trust of Richard
Mark Callanan

[Rich Anderson]

Mark I don't think anyone here is stateing the seller is untrustworthy. I don't look at the other forum you discussed this on but it's my perception the ansers are about the same and the gun isn't considered by most of the Parker enthusiasts here a "skeet" gun but it is a skeet configured gun. This is a nice shooter but IMHO doesn't warrent the price of a real skeet gun esp a graded gun. Most of the skeet guns were VHE so a graded one like this GHE is a rarer gun. No one has mentioned what the seller is asking price wise for this so all the hoopla is pure supposition on our part as we don't know if he is asking $10,000 or a $1000.

At the end of the day the important thing is to ask YOURSELF A) Do I like the gun, B) Can I afford the gun C) Is this to shoot targets/hunt with or are you buying it as a investment. If you like the guna nd are comfortable with the price than congratulations on a very nice Parker shooter. IF your primary purpose is as an investment for future return then I would pass on it.

[Mark Callanan]

Mark I don't think anyone here is stateing the seller is untrustworthy. I don't look at the other forum you discussed this on but it's my perception the ansers are about the same and the gun isn't considered by most of the Parker enthusiasts here a "skeet" gun but it is a skeet configured gun. This is a nice shooter but IMHO doesn't warrent the price of a real skeet gun esp a graded gun. Most of the skeet guns were VHE so a graded one like this GHE is a rarer gun. No one has mentioned what the seller is asking price wise for this so all the hoopla is pure supposition on our part as we don't know if he is asking $10,000 or a $1000.

At the end of the day the important thing is to ask YOURSELF A) Do I like the gun, B) Can I afford the gun C) Is this to shoot targets/hunt with or are you buying it as a investment. If you like the guna nd are comfortable with the price than congratulations on a very nice Parker shooter. IF your primary purpose is as an investment for future return then I would pass on it.



Rich
With all due respect
The questions wasn't about the cost of the gun
It wasn't about what I was going to do with it
As far as me being able to afford it I will leave that to the seller and me
The question was what is it and is it real?

I also didn't say anyone here said Dick wasn't and honest seller
I wanted to make sure people here didn't think I thought Dick wasn't honest
I have told Dick today I wasn't going to buy it
For you Parker Guys take a look

Thanks for everyones help here
Mark Callanan

[Scott Janowski]

I am looking at the 1937 Parker Catalog You can clearly see the serial numbers on the guns. So I thought why not check it aganist the Serialization book. The A1 Special is serial number 171341 in the catalog it has a capped pistol grip. In the serialization book it is listed as a straight stock. Has this gun shown up anywhere? The AAHE #214709 is correct to the book. The AHE 197081 (16 Gauge) is correct to the book. BHE 191866 is not in the book. The CHE# 196318 in the catalog is listed as an AHE Grade 20 bore with 32 inch barrels!
No other serial numbers are shown.

[Bill Murphy]

Twoatlow8, you are wrong about the C Grade. It is listed in the book as a C Grade, clear as glass. As far as the straight grip listing for the A-1, any number of situations can exist that would cause the book to disagree with the catalog picture. It only costs $40.00 to get to first base. Of course, this has little to do with the fact that a 1923 GHE was not originally built as a skeet gun.

[Scott Janowski]

Bill check the catalog again, you are right that 196319 is the C grade. However the picture in the catalog clearly shows the number as 196318. You are also right about the GHE Skeet.