CH Opportunity

[D.P.Warden]

Gentlemen I have the opportunity to purchase a CH, I believe it dates 1892. This particular CH was a Worlds Fair winner and at one time was owned by major baseball great and Hall of Fame inductee Christy Mathewson.
The gun does not have the original Bernard barrels. My questions are, What are the main things to consider before purchasing? Is it possible to ever locate the original barrels? Should I allow the guns history to play a role in my bargaining? I'm flying out to examine it in the morning, what should I consider before literally pulling the trigger? I currently own two VH's a 20 ga. and a 12 ga., this is my first serious consideration on purchasing a high grade Parker.
Thanks in advance for your assistance.

[Bruce Day]

The history adds interest but may not translate to value.

An 1892 C will have fine scroll, lots of detail and probably deer or elk engraving. If abused, the engraving could be worn down.

Spare Bernard barrels are about impossible to find. The last spare set I know of were #2 frames and sold for $2000 four years ago the moment they were offered. I was too late. Spare grade 2 damascus barrels are always available and you can always buy a G for cheap and cannibalize the barrels to return the C to close originality. Added fluid barrels are all right but not as nice as the original Bernards.

The wood should be high quality and very attractive on this gun. Its like these were old growth French walnut with depth and complexity that is just not seen anymore even in costly blanks.

Hope you have the original skeleton butt.

Being a Worlds Fair gun , the engraving should be spectacular. I'd like to see it.

Here are a few photos of an 1891 C 12ga Bernard/10ga Damascus.

[Mike.Smith]

If the gun is missing the original barrels, I'd want to know where the replacement set came from. Were they factory added and serial numbered to the gun? If the work was done by Parker there may be a record of this happening, in which case I'd personally feel better about the barrels being replacements. Do you know for sure that the barrels were in fact "lost" and not damaged or destroyed, necessitating a new set? (i.e. are they even out there to be found?) Also for a gun this rich in history, is there any documentation of it's accomplishments and previous owner?

Just some thoughts,

Mike

[Dean Romig]

Orphaned Bernard barrels are out there but like Bruce says, they're about impossible to find. I have a set that I would like to find the gun for because these barrels are a bit unique. What is the serial number of the CH you are going to examine? Maybe we have a match. My Bernard barrels are for a 1 Frame.

[edgarspencer]

Do you know for a fact that the gun originally had Bernard barrels and not Damascus? Not all Cs were Bernard

[calvin humburg]

Take your camera so you can bring back some pictures if you leave the gun. That could be a very neet gun there is somthing about early C's.

[Ed Blake]

If you are making the effort to fly out to see it, everything else is a moot point. Buy it if you like the gun and the provenance is correct.

[charlie cleveland]

if you like the gun andcan afford it buy it...if you pass it up youll be sorry about the one that got away... charlie

[Jeff Christie]

I second Charlie's advice above. It is better to pay a few bucks more than curse yourself for years for the one that got away. If you like it- go for it.

[Richard Flanders]

That's Bruces famous 10ga 'quail gun' !

[paul stafford jr]

my son has offered as much as 3500.00 for a set of good bernards with no takers

[D.P.Warden]

I just returned home from visiting it's current owner. The serial number is 82331 and he has received the detailed letter on the CH from our very own organization. The barrels on the gun are titanic steel and the serial numbers match. There is a 2 stamped on them, he tells me that it represents the fact that they are a second Parker set produced for this gun. The original barrels the letter says are Bernard.
It has a skeleton butt plate, it sold for 150.00, sent to the New York Exposition in 1896 where it took first place, it was returned the NY Exposition in 1897 where it again took top honors. The CH was offered for sale in 1900 and sold to baseball great C.H. Mathewson of the New York Giants. Mathewson went on to be one of the 1st 5 players inducted into Cooperstown.
The gun can be found in Book 29
Built in 1895
30" barrels
English straight stock.
The left side of the receiver has a pointer and a lot of scroll.
The right side has a setter and a lot of fine scroll.
The bottom has 6 quail, trees, bushes and more scroll.
I left him with a substantial down payment and will return to get it in two weeks, Ed and Charlie, I certainly hope you are right.
I am the proud owner of a DT-10 Trident which i use regularly to give my fellow trap shooting opponents ulcers. Never did I think I would ever spend that much on another shotgun. Maybe by the time I pick it up I'll feel better, but right now I'm more than a little anxious....

[Chris Travinski]

The guilt will pass! Do we have to wait the two weeks too, or did you take some photos? I'm anxious to see it, sounds great.

[Dave Suponski]

Congratulations Mr.Warden Pictures please as Chris say's.

[D.P.Warden]

At this time I have no photos, didn't take a camera, was worried I'd look too ready to purchase. Photos will be taken and uploaded very soon, any do's or dont's once it's in my collection?
If I shoot it, should I use tubes? Should I put out an "all points bulletin" for the Bernard barrels serial number 82331? Would it be crazy to use to hunt quail, even if it's plantation hunting?

[Bruce Day]

Just shoot and enjoy the gun. No tubes. Regular shells.

South Dakota wild birds. Store bought Federal shells.

The first one is an 1896 A 12 that went back for Titanic barrels from the original damascus.

The second one is a 1904 C 16 that went back in 1939 for Rem barrels from the original damascus. Has knurled triggers, sort of unusual.

The President Harrison A grade has its damascus barrels replaced by Titanics.

That is not to say to not look for original barrels. Maybe something will come along, maybe not.

[paul stafford jr]

congrats another fine gun coming home

[Bill Mullins]

As I recall Christy Mathewson was a member and frequent guest of an old hunting club called Camp Bryan in coastal North Carolina. Other baseball notables such as Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig also visited the camp. Ted Williams was a guest in the early 1950's.
If old guns "could only talk"---and if we only look and listen closely I am not too sure that they really do!!

[Dean Romig]

Being commissioned specifically for the New York Exposition in 1896 I'm sure it must have lovely engraving!

[greg conomos]

So you have a CH with factory Titanic barrels. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over finding the Bernard barrels. It's not like the gun is a piece of junk without them.

Here's my opinion - there were plenty of guns which were sent back to Parker for new barrels which usually were fluid steel. The old barrels were most likely placed in an old keg that stood in a corner and every so often was emptied out by the scrap man.

It's fun to think every gun that received a second set of barrels wound up as a two barrel set but I'd guess a lot of times the second set was bought because the first set had been blown up, run over, etc. and no one spent a lot of time worrying about them.

[Ed Blake]

Congratulations. You have a very cool gun. Think of it this way, you just substituted one asset (cash) for another asset (C-grade Parker). They print more cash every day, but a shotgun like that is a rare bird. The gun will hold its value, unlike our current dollar.

[Craig Larter]

Sounds like a great gun---don't be afraid to shoot it with proper loads----Enjoy!!

[Mike Krol]

Wow! Can't wait to see pics of what has to be one very cool gun.

[D.P.Warden]

Thanks for all of the information shared regarding my latest acquisition. I am a reloader, what is the max fps recommended? Should I load some Federal paper hull, #8 shot, at 1100 fps to avoid unnecessary wear and tear? I'm sure that I can modify the paper hulls to 2.5 inches. Are there any particular powders that I should avoid?

[Craig Larter]

I also handload-----I would suggest any 2 3/4" 1oz or less load plastic or paper that produces 6000psi or less at 1150fps. FIRST have a gunsmith mic the walls and bores to determine the barrels are in shootable shape. I have a CHE Bernard that I shoot frequently both targets and ducks with handloaded bismuth, enjoy your new purchase and shoot often.

[Rich Anderson]

I have a CHE 16/12 with Bernard bbls (boy I'm glad I added those 12ga bbls) and shoot all 2.5 inch low pressure shells. If your not going to shoot targets alot with it get some RST ammo and enjoy your new gun. Just a warning though once you start using it you may put that Beretta up for sale...I know I did:)

[D.P.Warden]

22330

[Paul Stafford]

Very nice letter, My C grade has similar display information on the PGCA letter. It's unfortunate the Bernard's are missing, but I am in the same position. I chased two pair I found for mine, but was unable to persuade the owners to sell. Oddly one of the bernards was put on a D grade. And I even offered to buy the whole gun. Get some RST shells and enjoy!

[D.P.Warden]

Thanks to everyone who helped me decide on adapting The 1895 Christy Mathewson CH 12ga. I have not taken it into the field yet, maybe my first shots with it will be taken in Sanford next week.

[Mike Franzen]

That's a beautiful gun. Is that the original stock? Do you have the stock the letter states was made for Matheson?

[greg conomos]

So this gun was ordered, then presumably manufactured,then used in an Exposition the previous year?

[Russ Jackson]

Beautiful Gun , Congratulations ! I would enjoy seeing some close up pictures of the Receiver engraving ,especially the Quail ! Thanks for posting ! Russ

[edgarspencer]

As the letter doesn't state that it was rebarreled by Parker, it may have been after they kept order book information, or it could have been done at Remington. Do the flats have any stamping to indicate Remington? Does it have a Parker Brother legend on the top rib? If so, it could have been done in Meriden after they ceased order book entries. Where is the number 2 stamped? On the fore end lug?

[D.P.Warden]

Edgar,

Is this stamping and are these the lugs you were inquiring about?
I'm using my camera phone to take the pictures, so if the clarity of the photos isn't helping answer your question just let me know.

[Ray Masciarella]

Very cool. Looks like it was made for promotional purposes. While it went to expos, I'm sure it was also used elsewhere by Parker to promote it's guns. Probably was maintained at the factory. When it's use as promotional gun was complete, it was sold to dealer in Boston. Interestingly, at full price. Many time these promotional guns were sold at a discount hater use. Then the dealer sold it to a baseball great! Can't get much better then that! I hope you can find the barrels but if not maybe any set of Bernard barrels would do.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar,Is this stamping and are these the lugs you were inquiring about?
I'm using my camera phone to take the pictures, so if the clarity of the photos isn't helping answer your question just let me know.
Yes, and good pics. Certainly appears to be a factory fitted 2nd set of barrels. It would lead me to believe that the original barrels were with the gun when it had the 2nd set fitted, but I could be wrong. I'm also speculating that the work was done in Meriden, even if Remington owned Parker at that point. If it was a set of Meriden barrels that went to Ilion, then I'd expect to see Remington stamping on the flats.
Very nice gun! I'm sure you'll get plenty of use out of it, and perhaps more so because of the Titanic barrels. I guess it's the rarity of Bernard barrels that gets some wound up, but personally, I find damascus patterns more pleasing to look at.

[D.P.Warden]

Can anyone tell me if the history and provenance gives the gun more value or is it just a neat thing to have and know about the gun? Many athletes and actors owned Parkers, but I'm guessing it's the condition of the gun that gives it value. Unless of course it was owned by a Czar....

[David Noble]

Generally speaking, provenance adds interest and history to the firearm. It can also add value if one of the previous owners was a famous (not just wealthy) person such as a top tier actor (Clark Gable etc.), political figure (past president etc.) or a noted competitor or exhibition shooter (Annie Oakley etc.) or noted sports personality. :)
After seeing the pictures it appears your barrels are Vulcan, not Titanic. The circled V on the right barrel flat indicates Vulcan steel.
My BHE 20ga (originally Damascus ) was fitted with Vulcan steel barrels sometime in the mid 30's, probably by Remington/Parker as evidenced by Remington codes on the barrel flats.
Could you take another picture of the flat of the left barrel? That is where the repair codes are usually stamped.

[D.P.Warden]

Here are the close up photos that you requested. Excuse the lack of focus, I'm using a camera phone right now until I can find my wife's digital camera.

[D.P.Warden]

David, It clearly states Titanic Steel on the top of the rib.....

[David Noble]

That's interesting.
After looking closer at the barrel flats I would agree with Edgar. If the barrels were factory replaced they were most likely done in Meriden before 1934.
That is a beautiful Parker and I bet it will be a great shooter also.

[edgarspencer]

That's interesting.
After looking closer at the barrel flats I would agree with Edgar.
Don't be too quick to agree with me. I didn't blow up the picture of the barrel flats before, but doing it now, clearly see the circle V. Curiouser and curiouser.
The overload proof mark would indicate post 1927.

[Mark Conrad]

The arrows at the end of the rib inscription should be compared to the arrows in The Parker Story.

[edgarspencer]

The arrows at the end of the rib inscription should be compared to the arrows in The Parker Story.

Aha! Super Sleuth Conrad nails it. Vulcan arrows.

[Dean Romig]

Mark is right but the "V" in the circle on the rt. barrel flat nailed it for me. I don't believe Parker Bros. would have allowed a slip like that.

[edgarspencer]

I don't believe Parker Bros. would have allowed a slip like that.
Likewise, I'm having trouble believing they would let a V grade barrel get marked Titanic on the top rib.

[charlie cleveland]

heh yall say never say never....charlie

[Mike Franzen]

I saw this gun today and Darren was very gracious to let me handle it. It is a beautiful gun and the engraving on the frame is spectacular.

[Bill Murphy]

I believe Parker Brothers could easily have done the work, Titanic marked rib and all. Back in those days, no one knew or cared about water table markings. The barrels could have been installed gratis for a "friend of the management". In that case, anything goes. By the way, this is another example of a gun that was sent to an Exposition as proven by the order book records, but not listed in the lists of Exposition guns in The Parker Story. This gun was listed in the New York Exposition of 1897, but not 1896. However, we know it was there because of the order book wording. This is a great gun with show gun and personality provenance as well as nice refinished condition. Congratulations, D.P. By the way, I have a gun that was displayed in the 1896 New York Exposition also.

[Charlie]

IMHO, these were originally Vulcan Steel barrels but someone has re-engraved TITANIC over VULCAN on the top rib. The arrow is from a standard Vulcan roll-die. Note the second E in STEEL is larger than the first; this is from a Vulcan. TPS Vol II has pictures of roll-die marks used on top ribs. Charlie Price

[Bill Murphy]

Whoever did all this work certainly paid attention to details and built a heck of a stock. Remember, the Mathewson stock was capped pistol grip. I am going with Turnbull's shop or Robert Runge or someone just as talented for the rib engraving. The whole package is pretty nice. Photographs of the rib inscription from different angles may confirm that the words "Titanic" and/or "Steel" are engraved, not roll marked.

[John Gardner]

Wow. I won't presume to add a contribution to the Parker side of the equation in this august company other than to say it is a beautiful gun!

You did however ask about the value with association to a former owner or event and David weighed in on that point and, as I can contribute on this aspect in this case, I would comment as well.

You have made a good dollar investment in a Parker. You have made a great dollar investment in baseball memorabilia. This combines to create a SUPERB investment.

The issue is not that your gun may not have all the original bits and the barrels aren't the original Bernard, (the lug has a 2 marked I think used to denote a second barrel set?), and whether current barrels are true Titanic or Vulcan re-roll marked, - (both legitimately expanding your shooting options over the original Bernard), and that the stock is now straight versus pistol grip in the letter, or even the issue of amount of refinish - lovely done by the way - versus original finish. Indeed all of which, and this was referenced already by another member, can be reasonably explained by the active use of the gun over time.

All the above would be very significant, in fact be the most significant, aspect of the gun's value even greater perhaps than present condition of the gun - IF not for the association with the World's Fair and Christy Mathewson. This is where I transition away from the emphasis of value from the comments thus far.

A CH grade gun will always carry an intrinsic value and it will always have it's devoted (me too!) admirers. However CH grades are not exceedingly rare.

A documented World's Fair gun is a much rarer bird and a documented gun associated with one of the immortals of baseball - and their were few if any players ever more loved and admired than Christy Mathewson, is in a category of it's own.

Fast history: Not only was he an exceptionally skilled ball player (13 out of 14 years he won 20+ games and had 4 seasons over 30+ games - he was a literal GIANT of the game - pun intended!) he was also a true gentlemen and genuine American hero. "He gripped the imagination of a country that held a hundred million people and held this grip with a firmer hold than any man of his day or time" per Grantland Rice the famous sportswriter of the era.

I have no idea what you paid for your gun, nor do I desire to as I would probably cry like a baby with envy, but I can assure you that, since it has iron clad provenance to Christy, if it is worth '$X' as a Parker in present condition and value as a World's Fair gun, to a Mathewson collector it is at least 50% more.

Frankly I am only started with 50% as that small, churlish, bit deep inside of me hopes I could persuade you to part with it!

To me, and I am only a generalist when it comes to Mathewson and this is the part where I may get the other members thinking I'm nuts, :), I would much, much, rather own Christy Mathewson's C gun then any non-provenance A. You have a collector's dream - an item that crosses multiple markets.

My warmest congratulations. Enjoy! Cheers JG

[Brian Dudley]

One thing that I noticed about the rib marking is that all the characters are in regular (non italic) font. This is correct for all barrel steel under Titanic. However, According to TPS examples of roll stamps, barrel steels titanic and up have Italic font being used for the whole rib marking. So, in addition to the incorrect arrows, it appears that the font style is also not correct.

[Dean Romig]

So, the last record we see on this gun was from 1900. A lot may have happened in the next few decades (during which time Mathewson died of tuberculosis - probably a complication stemming from a gas attack during his service in WW-I) including going back to Parker Bros. as a result of the next owner possibly having damaged the barrels or believing them to be 'unsafe to shoot with modern powder'.
I am convinced the barrels are a factory replacement by one fact alone.... who else but the Parker Bros. factory barrel-makers would have known to stamp a set of Vulcan barrels with the number code for a C-grade, a 4 in the absolute correct location on the barrel flats?!

[Dave Suponski]

I agree with Dean. Here's something to think about. Could this be a clue that Parker Bros. used the same steel in all their fluid steel guns and just marked them according to grade? Except of course Whitworth .

[Dean Romig]

This is another in a string of "apparent evidence". Look for an article in this Summer Issue of Parker Pages which we believe is pretty conclusive.

[D.P.Warden]

Gentlemen,

If more photos are what you need to answer these questions, just let me know and I'll take as many detailed photos as possible. I also have in my possession the original straight grip stock. Should I be looking for a set of 1.5 frame Bernards to put all of this debate to rest? The original wood was just as snazzy as the new...

I'm not one who collects for the sake of simply having a collection, if I buy it, I use it, and I'm feeling like I may have something too rare to actually use. If there are some CH Mathewson fans out there that could give this beauty a nice home PM me and we will work out the details. I'm going to be doing a lot of traveling over the next couple of months due to this being heavy state trapshooting season and I'm considering a Caesar Guerini back up gun to my Beretta. My better half is recommending selling something before buying something else, so I'm officially considering offers:)

[Dean Romig]

Sorry if our comments have been offensive - basically we're just discussing it without disparaging your wonderful Parker. In my case, I'm convinced the barrels are a Parker Bros. replacement and that makes them 'original factory work' which is always good.

Your CH is in exceptional condition but it is not too nice to shoot. Many of us have very nice guns with great provenance and we shoot them. If I were you I would keep it and shoot it at gatherings of Parker and other SXS shooting venues.

[Brian Dudley]

What a wonderful thing to have the original stock for the gun. Especially since it was taken off so long ago.

[Ed Blake]

Personally, I'd keep the original stock. Is that bondo in the wrist area?

[D.P.Warden]

I don't think it's bondo, it actually feels like ceramic. It definately doesn't have the bondo ingredients.

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if it can be checkered, stained and finished to look close to original... it would certainly be a job for an expert like Dave Trevallion to remove that stuff and splice walnut in there to make an invisible repair.

[Brian Dudley]

Most of the filler material is in the checkering pattern, which is a big help when it comes to making a good repair.

[D.P.Warden]

Sold

[Mike Franzen]

Congratulations Darren! Somebody got a nice gun.

[Richard Flanders]

What a great gun to have in ones 'stable'. I hope a PP story is in the works. The story on this gun deserves to be in the permanent record.