Newtown etc. effect on Gun Sales

[allen newell]

While returning from the hospital in Boston today where my bride of 40 years is receiving radiation treatment, I decided to stop by one of local gun shops in Weymouth, Ma. just off Rte 3 south. I walked into the 'Hunters Trading Post' where I've shopped for years for good used doubles looking to see what Parkers and LC Smith's they typically have on hand for sale.

The store was packed! People were lined up at the counter (men and women) in the process of purchasing thier handgun while to the right side of the store there were a number of customers looking at or in the process of buying a semi-auto, AR-15 type weapon. It was astonishing to see so many folks in the process of buying firearms and I couldn't help but think that as horrible as the events in Connecticut were/are, the politician's and media's knee jerk reaction to start clammering for a ban on 'assault' type fireararms (and I suppose firearms in general would be the next step) is spuring just the thing they seek to eliminate.

It was an eye opener.

[Steve Huffman]

I wish your wife well on the treatments and all goes well. The gun stuff I think is a different form of radiation.

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

Allen: I hope that your wife is doing well.I went through the same with my wife of 47 years and she is doing great. Thomas

[allen newell]

Thanks Steve. She is strong and fighting this hard. My hero for sure.

As for the other type of 'radiation', In as much as the country could benefit from having an open and honest discussion/debate about firearms in the US. It would be much better if our politicians and their media allies would observe a long moment of silence until the families could finish burying their beloved children. Just shut up out of respect and observe a period of silence while the dead are taken care of the the families and friends can grieve without all the background noise. The families deserve that much I would think.

Then have an open and honest debate. And let's be honest about it. Let's talk about how the privacy laws impact mental health disclosures. Just my 2 cents.

[Paul Plager]

Well said Allen.
God bless you and your HERO. Prayers have been sent for you both.

[Paul Plager]

It's sad state of affairs when we, as law abiding americans think that we have to go out and buy a gun due to fear that our government will make them illegal to purchase. No matter what the reason.

[Richard Flanders]

It was the same at the Sportsmans Warehouse here in Denver on Saturday. Three people deep the entire length of the gun counter and lots of form filling going on. Lots of waiting on background checks too I think. It was amazing. Similar but not quite as much so at Bass Pro.

[John Campbell]

Don't worry fellas.

The 1968 gun law fixed everything.
The assault weapons ban fixed everything again.
The UN weapons ban is going to fix things worldwide.
But this time the Dems are really going to fix YOU.
Buy 'em if you can find 'em.


Best, Kensal

PS: Remember... Parkers are guns, too.

[Mills Morrison]

I hope Allen's wife pulls through ok. I have a cousin and best friend going through cancer treatment as we speak. His prognosis is pretty good, fortunately.

The media glorifies these shootings so much it is no wonder we have so many.

[Paul Plager]

Because the media glorifies them, the kids nowadays can't think for themselves. No one taught them to think, just to pass the tests.:crying:

[Mills Morrison]

The whole thing is depressing. Especially for me having 2 young boys close to the ages of the ones shot.

[Paul Plager]

Hug them, hold them and make sure they know you love them.

[allen newell]

we have 3 grandchildren and one in kindergarten. We turned off the news for 2 days, just wouldn't/could not bring ourselves to watch it. Too unbearable. Too emotional. Nana and Papa hugged the kids over the weekend.

[Mills Morrison]

Amen.

[John Farrell]

Lost in all of the gun debate and the other mass killings over the past 30 years, is that in 1980 President Reagan ordered (?) no more federal funds for institutions that housed the crazies. The lunatics were turned back to the communities. The dead mother of this latest killer made statements earlier that getting her son committed was next to impossible. Meanwhile . . .

Here in Minnesota we have more than 600 sexual predators locked in detention centers. They have completed their prison sentences. By law they cannot be released to society unless they are "cured". No one knows what "cured" means. In the history of the law, only 2 people have been released. Sex offenders must be registered with the local police who are required to notify residents of the area in which he/she lives about his/her home address. Lunatics are protected by privacy laws and no one knows if they are in the community.

I hope the commission that is going to study the "gun issues" for the next six months looks at the number of crazies in our communities and considers locking them up, again.

[John Campbell]

The sad fact is that there will always be more lunatics and/or mental incompetents running loose in a society than those that can be identified, certified and committed.

These are the scariest people to me. And we've all known far too many.

Then my mind sarcastically suggests Washington DC as a perfect example.

Best, Kensal

[Dean Romig]

John, contrary to your post there is a free "app" that both of my daughters ( mothers of daughters) have on their iPhones and that is the location of where registered sex offenders live in relation to my daughters' zip codes. It is surprising and quite unnerving to discover that there are 7 within the area of their zip codes... this is in rural New Hampshire.

[Mills Morrison]

Yes, everyone should know about the sex offender registry and that you can check it online. Around here, you can get details on the conviction. We live in a gated community so we have a little protection that way. The greater Savannah area has become a war zone where crime is concerned.

[John Campbell]

That lunatic in CT wasn't on a sex offender list... yet he offended BOTH sexes by killing boys, girls and women.

My only point is that there will always be MORE screwballs running loose on the streets than there will ever be in "treatment." And their locations are unknown. Hence, the best defense for the individual is a Model 1911 loaded with 230 gr. FMJ ammo. It's a guaranteed lunatic pacifier. Regardless of whether he's listed or not.

Best, Kensal

[Mills Morrison]

Right, that point is well taken.

A cousin of mine once said, if you get me you get me, but mess with my family and there will be a tag on your toe by sundown

[tom leshinsky]

we need to outlaw violent video games, these kids play them for hours on end and it just brainwashes them to kill, kill, kill. Paintball games do not help one bit either. We need to watch and be aware of what is going into these kids brains.

[allen newell]

Don't count on it, The Annointed One has just appointed his second in command to lead an inside the ball park team that will most likely focus just on gun control and probably outlawing possession of firearms capable of handling large capacity magazines. And the Media that follows the Annointed One will help lead the charge.

[Daryl Corona]

I don't know if anyone listened to the NRA's press conference this morning but Wayne Lapierre gave a brilliant speech and outlined a specific remedy for the school violence problem. His best line was something to the effect of "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun". He made many excellent points but the media will still paint the NRA as a bunch of gun nuts. I truly hope everyone who owns a gun belongs.

[Jay Gardner]

I don't know if anyone listened to the NRA's press conference this morning but Wayne Lapierre gave a brilliant speech and outlined a specific remedy for the school violence problem. His best line was something to the effect of "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun". He made many excellent points but the media will still paint the NRA as a bunch of gun nuts. I truly hope everyone who owns a gun belongs.

Brilliant speech? WL did more to jeopardize our 2nd Rights today than the shooter did a week ago. What a colossal blunder. LaPierre's arrogance knows no bounds. If our country is at the point where militarization of our schools is the solution then is our society truly free? I can't imagine any intelligent adult thinking the plan Wayne LaPierre put forth this morning is anything other than a preposterous farce.

This mentality is exactly why I have never joined the NRA and I never will.

[allen newell]

The Annointed One, The Schumer's and Pelosi's of the world and with the media cheerleading - they will brand WL as part of the right wing lunatic fringe. Already, very little of what WL said has been taken seriously. WL missed a perfect opportunity to make a reasoned case for a variety of actions that could be taken with necessarily infringing on the rights of gun owners. (I am a member of the NRA but I'm also a father and grandfather and former teacher in another life)

[Dave Purnell]

And here we have the difference in ideology, WP made perfect sense for a solution to the obvious problem, and the radical left can't see it. Here we go again.

Dave

[allen newell]

WL could have delivered/made his case in a different manner with better effect. Much of his content was spot on, but his manner of presentation was not as effective as it could have been. While he may have been correct to point out in his opening that the Annointed One is basically a hypocrite on this issue, he had to know it would color the rest of what he had to say, he had to know the media would be looking for any way to characterize his message unfavorably. He put himself and the NRA in a position where the Media and their political allies could pounce on them. Most unfortunate.

[Mills Morrison]

The whole thing is sad and it appears Washington is going to play politics rather than try to address the problems which caused this horrible crime. This is probably a good time for us to go back to talking about Parkers, hunting and more pleasant things

[John Campbell]

Mills:
I agree with you. I'd much rather be talking about Parkers. But to ignore reality is to accept the fate others deal to you. And... if you think that those idiots in Washington will stop with "assulat weapon" and high-cap magazine legislation, you will have to think again.
Parkers? Well, let's see. They are also talking about "the gun show loophole." That means you may not be able to buy that wonderful BHE you spot at Tulsa. Or have to fill out a 4473 for a pre-'98 shotgun.
You may not realize it, but for the "public safety" you can't even keep a shotgun in your home in the UK without police OK. Think it can't happen here? Think again.
In my book, the NRA did fine. As a former newsman, PR man and ad man, I like the fact that old Wayne stuck it to them. They were already blaming the NRA anyway. Why lay there and take it?
Romney did that during the election. And see what happend?

Best, Kensal

PS: On second thought, Mills is right. Let's go back to Parkers.

[Steve Huffman]

Brilliant speech? WL did more to jeopardize our 2nd Rights today than the shooter did a week ago. What a colossal blunder. LaPierre's arrogance knows no bounds. If our country is at the point where militarization of our schools is the solution then is our society truly free? I can't imagine any intelligent adult thinking the plan Wayne LaPierre put forth this morning is anything other than a preposterous farce.

This mentality is exactly why I have never joined the NRA and I never will.

Jay what you said really turns my stomach without the NRA you should just leave those nice guns on the front door step to be picked up for garbage . This is the only group that actually is fighting for your right to keep them I dont see the media talking about anyone but them. If our President can be guarded by armed guards why cant my son ? I think I better stop !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cuss::cuss:

[Jay Gardner]

Jay what you said really turns my stomach without the NRA you should just leave those nice guns on the front door step to be picked up for garbage . This is the only group that actually is fighting for your right to keep them I dont see the media talking about anyone but them. If our President can be guarded by armed guards why cant my son ? I think I better stop !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cuss::cuss:

If the thought of militarizing our schools doesn't turn everyone's stomach then our country is truly beyond hope. If we are at a point where the only defense against fellow citizens who would harm us with guns is to carry a gun are we truly free? Does that sound like the freedom those who wrote the Bill of Rights foresaw?

The WL did more to jeopardize our 2nd A rights yesterday than all of the mass shootings combined and we all had better be ready for the blow-back because it will come swiftly and the ONLY real power the NRA has comes through political threats and there are not going to be a lot of legislators who are going to roll over this time.

[Steve Huffman]

Than guess what WAKE UP WERE NOT FREE !!!

[Paul Plager]

Wasn't it the armed citizens that gave us our freedom in the first place? The true fact is that we have let ourselves be out manuvered by politics and by people that are scared of us standing up for ourselves. We have let the government regulate us, instead of us regulating the govnment.

[Steve Huffman]

I would like to see how FREELY you could walk down some of these big city streets at 11:00 at night for lets say a 2 mile walk up and back

[Jay Gardner]

Wasn't it the armed citizens that gave us our freedom in the first place? The true fact is that we have let ourselves be out manuvered by politics and by people that are scared of us standing up for ourselves. We have let the government regulate us, instead of us regulating the govnment.

From that we obtained the right to vote for our leaders and our government. So you are saying if enough people do not agree with the majority in an election then it's ok to take up arms against the majority?

[Jay Gardner]

I would like to see how FREELY you could walk down some of these big city streets at 11:00 at night for lets say a 2 mile walk up and back

There is a great difference than walking down a street at night and waking into en elementary school and if you can't grasp that then you have a warped sense of reality.

[Fred Preston]

In the last 10 years or so, whenever authorities hear of a "threat", real or imagined in a school, or a police officer is called in with his dog for a locker check, there is a "lockdown". Sure sounds like a prison to me.

[Steve Huffman]

In my warped sense of reality I am seeing people killed walking down streets and in schools so what kind of defense do either have ? Is that not reality !

[Dave Suponski]

Steve and Jay, We all know there is no easy solution to this dilemma. You both have valid points but I feel if you guy's want to continue this discussion it would be better to do it off line. Can we get back to Parkers and related topics? Please...

[John Campbell]

Personally, I like Parkers.


Best, Kensal

[Steve Huffman]

YES ! Im sorry !! Just venting I guess , no hard feeling. Im done with it.

[allen newell]

I would have preferred that WL said something like "the NRA stands ready to work with Vice President Biden's Commission, participate in its membership to bring realistic approaches and solutions to this kind of violence". He wasn't as politic as I would have hoped. The NRA could better influence this so-called commission if it was directly involved and contributing rather than be seen as the outside influence to be ignored and demagogued. (did I spell that right?). I'd rather see the NRA inside the tent rather than putting their match to it from the outside...

[Jay Gardner]

I would have preferred that WL said something like "the NRA stands ready to work with Vice President Biden's Commission, participate in its membership to bring realistic approaches and solutions to this kind of violence". He wasn't as politic as I would have hoped. The NRA could better influence this so-called commission if it was directly involved and contributing rather than be seen as the outside influence to be ignored and demagogued. (did I spell that right?). I'd rather see the NRA inside the tent rather than putting their match to it from the outside...

Alan, that's what I had hoped would happen. It was an opportunity for WL to offer to work with congress instead of against them. Then I heard what was proved and I was absolutely floored.

While I have the floor, I have no patience for those who question my commitment to firearm ownership just because I have been vocal in my criticism of WL and the NRA. Your intolerance speaks volumes about your personal character and the fact that you blindly follow the NRA without question tells me exactly the kind of person you are (a lemming) and ultimately your blind faith will be what costs us our rights as gun owners.

[allen newell]

Setter Man,

I hope you are not directing the last paragraph in my direction. I certainly am not questioning your commitment to firearm ownership. Don't understand your last paragraph. It's over the top if it's directed my way.

[Jay Gardner]

Allen, my comments were not directed at you.

[David Noble]

If it were not for the NRA none of us would own guns at this time. Call us lemmings if you like, but you sir are the miss-guided one.
This thread needs a "thumbs down" icon.

[Jay Gardner]

If it were not for the NRA none of us would own guns at this time. Call us lemmings if you like, but you sir are the miss-guided one.
This thread needs a "thumbs down" icon.

Sure. But for the NRA the 2nd A would have been erased from the Bill of Rights. I assume you took Civics 101 in high school. As I said earlier, the inability to stand any criticism of the NRA's tactics and policies will ultimately lead to the decline in the relevance and power of the organization.

[allen newell]

For many of us there is a growing sense and awareness that the underlying principles that have driven our culture are being abandones or at the least are slipping away. The results of the last election reinforce this awareness. The 'Greatest Generation' and the political leadership that sprang from this generation has all but left us. Where are the principled politicians in our national govenment who operate on the Constitution first and Partyy second or even third? There's an ever growing population of citizens (and others) who apparently believe the government exists to make their life easier, solve their problems. You know what I mean. We no longer enjoy a free and unbiased independant journalist media (Fox News may be the exception) We would know very little about the reporting/investigating on the Benghazi attack if it weren't for Fox News. Imagine that occuring 40 years ago. The NRA which has fought so long and hard to protect our right to own and bear arms is now going to face probably it's greatest challenge. Given the cultural changes and backdrop, the high emotionally charged reaction to the school children shooting one Party's proclivity to pander for more votes, there no doubt will be a full court press to limit the rights we have gained under the Second Amendment. We are in for a rough ride and we all need to stick together. God save the US of A.

[Bill Zachow]

In regards to having an armed guard at our schools, consider the fact that there has never been a successful terror type mass killing at.....A GUN CLUB!!! Now we can go back to Parkers. Thank you all and thank the NRA for funding the validation of the 2nd amendment as an individual right in the recent Supreme Court cases.

[Mark Ouellette]

Gentlemen, this turned into a lengthy essay. I apologize for being so verbose but this is what I think and why I think this way!

The NRA takes a hard stance on ALL gun rights because the anti-gunners’ strategy is to slowly chip away gun rights one at a time.

I shot assault rifles on full auto and machine guns in the Marines. It was a rush but I left those things behind in the Corps. I now own two only three semi-autos, a Benelli shotgun, a .22 Ruger target pistol, and a SIG .380. I haven’t shot the Benelli in years. The Ruger drives tacks and dispatches an occasional unwelcome critter. The SIG holds only 6 rounds but conceals easily. I shoot it well with either hand and unless I am in the wrong neighborhood at night, it should be all I need. I sincerely hope that I am never in a situation where I will need to draw a weapon on another human. Life it too precious.

Thanks to the NRA I have the right to own the above listed weapons. Additionally thanks to their unflinching devotion to everyone’s gun rights I also have the right to own a legally registered Class III weapon, i.e. full auto weapon. Oh, for the price of a good DHE one could purchase a full auto MAC 10. I personally have no use for something like that but I am very happy that if one follows ALL the Federal, state, and local laws, a law abiding citizen may purchase and own such a weapon.

A few years back while sighting in a Contender pistol at 200 yards someone was sighting in an AR-15 style weapon with a large scope at 100 yards. I asked him if and what he might hunt with it. His reply was coyotes. Okay, I would select a bolt action because I strive for one shot kills but maybe that guy thought that he could kill several coyotes at once. That shooter probably would not understand why anyone would want to shoot Damascus barreled shotguns, To each his or her own!

The killing field in Connecticut was horrible. If I was in Wayne LaPierre’s position of having to make a statement after a seemingly mentally unstable person used a legally purchased assault rifle to kill young year school children, well I do not know what I would have said. I agree with Wayne that if a legal gun carrying person had been there that they may likely have been able to stop the killing before 20 children had been shot.

I also know that being born before 1960 that as a child, when I did something bad that I got punished. A leather belt across my bare butt happened too often in my opinion. But then I did grow up to be a prior enlisted Marine Corps Officer who retired with night school earned BA and MBA degrees. The discipline that I received as a child may have repressed some creativity but it kept me from making really stupid decision that would have landed me in jail! It also was the key to any success I had in life. Today’s generation “Y” did not receive even a spanking for fear of parent going to jail!

Then there are those movies and video games focused on killing. Yes the video gams are sort of fun but if one were to play them day in and out, all that killing might find its way into one’s subconscious. My Marine Corps training is still in mine and I’ve been retired for a decade and a half. Shooting innocent children isn’t in my brain because I learned to shoot with bone support, sight alignment, and trigger control. I also learned not to point a weapon at anything that I did not intend to kill! I did not play killing whatever pops up countless times during my youth. I think that such activities would have diminished my sense of right and wrong.

Our society has evolved since I was a child but then so has the entire world. There is no corporal punishment of one’s children any more. Anything is acceptable for children to play and do. Generation Y means that their response to most requests is “Why should I?” Why should I NOT take mom’s assault and teach her a lesson? After all it’s her fault that I am depressed…

I agree with Obama that people need more access to treatment for mental health. Unfortunately in the USA there is still a stigma toward being depressed, bipolar disorder, and other mental illnesses that are more common than most realize.

I also think that the assault weapons ban will be passed into permanent law. We might also lose the right to transfer firearms between law abiding citizens without going through an FFL for a background check. We will probably lose those rights because of my generation loving their children so much that we allowed politicians to strip parents’ rights away for the sake of the children. Add to that our ever permissive society where anything including kill, kill, kill movies and video games are the norm. It’s our society not the guns. Unfortunately one mentally unstable person can create enough public outcries to restrict everyone’s rights.

I joined the Marines and when the time came I went to war. That changed me and not all for the better. In the Corps I swore and oath to “support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic”. My service helped to protect the Constitution which protects us all. Some may think me the fool for wasting a couple decades and risking my life for others but I'm glad I did. I am also happy that the policeman who gave me a traffic ticket a few years back was serving his community and keeping others safe from someone like me. We all do stupid things occasionally... :)

I do not always like the NRA’s stance and statements but it is them who are fighting the battles with the anti-gunners. I give money to the NRA so that they may continue to protect the rights granted to us by the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution. I've also contributed to Dudley Brown and his gun rights organization. Foolish, maybe but I'm "paying for others to fight my battle!" If you hate the NRA and will not even become a NRA member, then WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING TO PROTECT OUR GUN RIGHTS? Please share this with us.

If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem! Yes, that's a line from the violent movie Die Hard but in it the hero was fighting to save innocent people!

[Daryl Corona]

Mark;
Very well said and your cartoon at the end kind of sums it up. I did'nt mean to start such a firestorm over the NRA but you now can see why the anti-gunners are winning. We as gun owners are not united. Death by a thousand cuts if you will. Once they change or abolish the 2nd amendment what's next the 4th? The real danger in all this is the subversion of the constitution to suit the liberal's agenda on their view of America to suit their electorate. Did you forget this corrupt adminstrations flirt with the UN arms treaty? United we stand, divided we fall. Period!

[David Noble]

Sure. But for the NRA the 2nd A would have been erased from the Bill of Rights. I assume you took Civics 101 in high school. As I said earlier, the inability to stand any criticism of the NRA's tactics and policies will ultimately lead to the decline in the relevance and power of the organization.

Jay, I myself have criticized some of the tactics or quotes from the NRA over the last thirty five years that I have been a life member. But then how can we expect an organization with as many members as it, to please every single one? There is no way, everyone has their own opinion. That being said, they were fighting for my and your rights and regardless of their tactics they have managed to preserve them for a lot of years. Like them or not, join them in the battle, who else is going to fight this for us?
Mark, I agree with you on the violent games that glorify killing with no remorse or regard. Most of the children and young adults that use these games have no real experience with firearms. I taught my sons proper gun handling and safety and took them afield as much as I could when they were young. Now they are young adults and I'm sure they have played some of these games, but at least I know they have a strong foundation of proper firearms use. Education is a key factor here.

[Dennis V. Nix]

No matter what Wayne LaPierre said or how he said it the media has vilified the NRA to the point that it would have been labeled as on the lunatic fringe. As a past law enforcement officer and then a prison correctional officer I can tell you that no matter what laws we pass as a society the criminals will NOT obey them. Criminals will steer clear of someone when they fear the person has a firearm. Why can't the politicians get that simple fact. In America our politicians have this belief that if something is wrong then simply pass a law and it will be all better. Nope, sorry politicians it doesn't work like that. As for the mental health afflicted people they aren't thinking with enough cylinders working to know it is wrong to kill people.

The Newtown school principal who courageously but foolishly rushed from her office to stop the killer would have been much smarter and all of those people would be alive today if she had simply gone into the hallway with her own weapon and shot the killer dead. But our society clings to the old notion of trying to reason with insanity or criminal behavior. Trust my thinking or not but there is a lot of evil in society today and in my experience some people just need to be killed or they will forever remain a threat to us and our kids. I am sorry if this thinking offends others but then maybe they need to get their own experience in dark alleys and prison corridors.

[John Campbell]

Dennis:
You have pretty well nailed it.

Lets hope responsible gun owners manage to get out of this with minimal damage.

Best, Kensal

[Jay Gardner]

I have been very vocal in my criticism of the NRA’s “solution” to the problem of violence in society, target specifically towards schools, primarily because it does not solve anything. (For those of you who disagree I suggest you find a dictionary and look up the word “solution”) In fact, it’s pretty clear that the “solution” proposed has actually created more anti-gun sentiment and may very well weaken the political power of the NRA. From the standpoint of PR and rationale debate their argument is illogical and, honestly just plain bad. Worse it just draws more dislike and distrust toward each of us as gun owners.

The problem is not about guns; it’s about people, many of whom should probably be hospitalized, having access to guns and therefore the only way to truly solve the problem is to keep guns out of the hands of these individuals. Fact is: no one who does not have a substantial psychological problems would even consider carrying out the acts of violence we have seen over the past several years, which usually ends in suicide (another indication of psychological problems) or death by cop (another indication of psychological problems). There is not going to be any solution to the problem unless and until those who would carry out these acts are identified and through due process (another constitutional right) are taken out of society. We used to do that but in the mid-80’s that stopped and it was shortly there after that mass shootings started to increase.

The responsibility however, is not solely that of the government; we as parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts and close friends owe it to each other to speak out when someone appears to be having problems. That is how it used to be but unfortunately today too many people don’t want to admit or acknowledge there is someone who needs help. Additionally, people need to start being parents and not relying on teachers and school systems to raise their children. We all grew up with guns, most of which were never under lock and key and at one time or another most of us probably took guns to school, in cars or trucks, planning to hunt on the way home. Yet none of us probably ever considered turning a gun on a friend or enemy because a disagreement or fist-fight.

If the NRA is sincerely interested in proffering a legitimate solution perhaps they should direct some of their substantial assets toward lobbying for improvements to the mental health system instead of one that will only result in more anti-gun sentiment and distrust and, which is self serving. (Suggesting everyone own a gun and schools have guns on premises will generating millions of dollars in profits for gun companies a percent of which will flow back to the NRA). Furthermore, the money that would be required to train, arm and secure our schools would be better spent securing society as a whole. It’s that type of solution that I had hoped the NRA would advance because as gun owners we would all benefit, but they did not. Instead they want to put the burden on schools, far too many of which are already stretched beyond the minimal resources they have. The NRA’s proposal would only diminish the goal of schools in the first place; educating our children.

Lastly, and this is directed at those who have taken exception to my criticism of the NRA, blindly following the NRA solely because you feel they the ONLY thing between where we are today and total disarmament, I don’t expect you to get understand. If you want to be respected you need to be respectful, something the NRA has struggled with since WL took the helm.

[allen newell]

Fellow PGCA Members,

I started this thread so let me please end it. We have had a robust and respectful discussion these past few days of a very difficult (not to say emotional) issue before us and the Nation. It has been informative and constructive. We all share a common interest here so let's work in days and weeks ahead to strengthen it.

Let us all pray for peace and good will. Everyone have a wonderful Christmas and/or holiday whatever our faith may be. We are all God's children. All the best.

[John Dallas]

Jay - As a generalization, who could argue with mentally unstable folks not having access to gun? Now, real world, how could we do that?

I believe that every mass murder situation that has occurred in the US,m has occurred in a Guns Free zone. Hmmm. Perhaps that should tell us something

[Jay Gardner]

Jay - As a generalization, who could argue with mentally unstable folks not having access to gun? Now, real world, how could we do that?

I believe that every mass murder situation that has occurred in the US,m has occurred in a Guns Free zone. Hmmm. Perhaps that should tell us something

Fort Hood (16-dead/30-wounded) was not a gun free zone. Oh, by the way soldiers are not permitted to be armed on the grounds unless there is a reason for them to be armed. That too should tell us something. If the Army does not allow soldiers, presumably well trained with firearms and the art of war, do you think it wise to require a 20-some year old female elementary school teacher to be armed? That's reality.

[Mark Ouellette]

Jay,

You just contradicted yourself. The only personnel authorized to have weapons and ammunition within Fort Hood's Cantonment area (mainside in the Naval services) are Military Police. Fort Hood is for all practical purposes a Gun Free Zone. All privately owned weapons must be registered and cased.

I did not call you out by name in my previous post but since you chose not to let this thread die a slow death, much like our gun rights, now I am. What are YOU doing to combat the anti-bun movement? There are other organizations than the NRA. Have you supported those with your money and time?

PS: I have met and personally despise Chris Cox, the head of the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action. I still donate the to cause. The NRA doesn't always do what I think is best but overall it is the only thing that has been able to defend the Second Amendment!

Mark

[Larry Stauch]

It's up to us to bridge the gap and keep the momentum in the right direction. You don't have to win all of the hearts across the country, you just have to win the few that don't understand and need some common sense guidance that will help us keep enjoying the gun freedom that we have now.

Unfortunately, WL and the administration at the NRA, of which I am a proud life member, didn't choose a very proactive approach. Don't ever think WL went out there on his own and started speaking. I'm sure all of those words and ideas were repeatedly hashed over by the powers to be at the headquarters of the NRA and WL is just the mouth piece. The NRA is the only organization that the politicians respect and fear.

Unfortunately, just sticking our heads in the sand and continuing to discuss our love for Parkers while the rest of the country decides our fate is not a good approach either.

But what I really don't like is packing the freeloaders along that want all of the benefits but are too timid to join in the fight and want to set on the sidelines and receive the trophy at the end. Like it or not, we're all in this together and you'd better be ready with a common sense answer when it comes your time to answer the question for those who don't understand.
We can do better for ourselves and the citizens of the country that don't share our passion but need solutions about how to keep them safe.

[Jay Gardner]

I don't believe that I have contradicted myself nor do I believe army bases can be construed as "gun free zones." As to what I do to support the cause, that's my business. However I think I have made it pretty clear that I do not and will not support the NRA under their current administration. Furthermore I believe they have taken a tact that in the near future will actually do more to jeopardize our rights than to protect them. Bottom line, I believe in the power of the vote and the Bill of Rights.

At this point I am done with this thread. I have stated my case in very honestly and unequivocally. I don't expect many, if any of you to concur with my rationale and that is fine with me. Let's just not make this any more personal than some of you have already done. Although we disagree on the best approach we are all in this together.

[David Noble]

Jay, I speak for myself here and I suspect many others, though we have differing opinions, your input is appreciated and respected. I too wish things had not gotten personal.
I wish you a Merry Christmas.
David

[Dennis V. Nix]

The soldiers at Fort Hood were not allowed to be armed which does indeed make it a gun free zone. As for the 20 year old elementary school teacher being armed my feeling is that if she wants to accept that responsibility AND has appropriate training then why should she not be armed. My God, we have armed 18 year old men and women in combat right now. Apparently they seem to do OK. We have all seen 6 year old children that are responsible and do very well shooting firearms in a safe manner. We have also seen 50 year old men who I would not be in the area with if they had a loaded gun. As for the NRA and WL speaking out, what would we have them do, just roll over and give in to the anti gunners? I hope not. In my experience with anti gunners they lie about their true intentions every time they open their mouth. "We don't want to take away your firearms, just make it harder for the criminals and crazy people to obtain guns. We are only going after the semi automatic military type assault rifle types." Listen to the people on any of the news channels. An anti gun person on O'Reilly the other night said he wanted to close the, "order a gun through the Internet loophole." There is no loophole as we all know but him saying that makes it sound to any other citizen who isn't in the gun hobby thinks any of us can simply go online to Rock River Arms and order a machine gun. Please don't believe that another assault weapons ban will be the end of the upcoming harassment from Senators Dianne Feinstein, Chuck Schumer or President Obama. It is the start of much more. When these people divide us and say they aren't after the hunting guns but only the assault weapons AND if we fall for it we deserve what we get.

I collect many types of firearms from assault type guns that I use to shoot targets and tin cans, hunting and collect, to Winchester Model 70's, side by side shotguns, handguns of all types etc. We need to open up our eyes and pay attention because these bans are coming and there will be nothing we can do to stop them. President Obama has already said there will be meaningful discussion with regard to firearms, mental health issues and whatever else can stop these needless killings of innocent citizens. But mark my words, there will be only lip service paid to the other causes of movie violence, Nintendo game violence and mental health issues. It is a ruse. There will only be banning guns. I wish us all luck but common sense will not be a part of the ban.

[Mark Ouellette]

For anyone who doesn’t like the NRA there are plenty of alternatives. Voting isn’t enough especially if one votes for left-leaning politicians! We all need to do more than vote.

I also suggest to all to get involved by writing to our elected US Congressmen of Congresswomen and Senators. Get involved!

If all one does is vote once a year and then complain about elected politicians and the NRA then they might as well surrender their firearms now.

We all need to stick together. You may do so by joining any of these alternatives to the NRA, AND BY WRITING TO YOUR CONGRESSIONAL LEADERS!!!

National Association for Gun Rights
http://www.nationalgunrights.org/

Gun Owners of America
http://gunowners.org/

Second Amendment Foundation
http://www.saf.org/

Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Ownership
http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_president.asp

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
http://jpfo.org/

Gun Owners Action League
http://www.goal.org/

Women Against Gun Control
http://www.wagc.com/

Pink Pistols
http://pinkpistols.org/

PS: I am a member of both the NRA and the National Association for Gun Rights. I found the other organizations listed above in a simple Google search. It really isn’t hard to get involved.

[King Brown]

My view from north of the border is that LaPierre was talking to his constituency, not a country confused, alarmed and absolutely broken-hearted. I would have preferred---if he were speaking for me---a more measured response under the circumstances, as Boehner did introducing his party's sort of "We'll give the President's plan a look and see what's best for the country." LaPierre's and Boehner's supporters know they're not to be turned. The NRA lost a chance to look good.

[Dennis V. Nix]

I am wondering what Wayne LaPierre and the NRA could have done to look good. I don't think the NRA would look good under any circumstances. I have supported the NRA for probably 50 years and will continue to do so. In my experience the NRA has been demonized forever by anti gun people and organizations as have SUV's and tobacco. I have done some research on gun violence and death by any type of firearm is far less than one percent in America. More people die by drowning than by firearms. Our President says he will do whatever it takes to stop even one more death by firearms. If that is his thinking than we surely ought to take airplanes out of the sky, cars off the road, total ban on smoking in that tobacco will not be permitted to be grown. President Obama went to Newtown, CT for the town goodwill but I don't see him saying a word, not one, about the 500 people who were killed by gunfire in his town of Chicago. Let's remember that Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. Our politicians think that if there is a problem just pass a law. Sorry but that doesn't seem to work.

I apologize for going off on a rant and I feel sadness and pain for any death in America because of any reason, especially gunfire. My own son died of a self inflicted gunshot because of the death of his sister a few years earlier and because he started using drugs. So who or what do I blame, the death of his sister, drugs, guns, society, his school teachers? No. I blame my son. He made the choice to take his life. Believe me, I have been there and done that. Knocking the NRA because of the deaths at Newtown or anywhere else is not the answer. As someone else mentioned what else is there. Without the NRA you can kiss your Parkers and any other guns goodby. Your .243 with a scope will be a demonized sniper rifle.

Dennis

[Mark Ouellette]

I'd like to share with everyone an opinion article by West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin. The Senator is a right leaning democrat who, if I lived in his state, would get my vote! He is also a former governor of his state.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/sen-joe-manchin-between-obama-and-the-nra-another-path-to-stopping-mass-violence/2012/12/21/181d4e94-4adc-11e2-9a42-d1ce6d0ed278_story.html

[King Brown]

Dennis, here's my way of looking at it: it was a bad blow for everyone everywhere. It wasn't felt differently in Canada or a village near Rome. It was an awful sadness at our special time of the year. It was no time for making points, numbers and comparisons. I thought of Antoine de Saint Exupery's words in Le Petit Prince that it is only with the heart that we can see rightly, as the essence of things is not visible to the eye. I don't know what LaPierre is like in person but his TV persona is "hot" when what was needed in these circumstances is "cool."

[Bruce Day]

I shot an M16, full auto, it was lots of fun to spray the target. I found that I was even able to hit the target a couple times out of a 15 round magazine when I shot fast.

I shot an M60 50cal BMG, boy what a feeling of firepower.

I pulled the lanyard on some type of Korean War army cannon. Wow what a blast.

People used to be able to freely buy those Thompson sub-machine guns after WWI until they were generally prohibited and available only to Class III permit holders who want to pay the license fees, like the full auto versions of the M/AR 15, 16.

So I know the constitution gives me a right "to keep and bear arms" for the purpose of being ready to be called up to a well regulated militia to support the security of the state. I know that's what the second amendment says, but it sure is confusing since we have had since 1900 these big armies, navies and police departments and the state militias---the national guard . I suppose that also means that I can bear arms to be secure in my home and for hunting, and I suppose reasonable recreation, although it sure was fun to blast away with the cannon and those full auto machine guns. And it may be fun to shoot one of those AR 15's that will shoot as fast as you can move your finger, almost as fast as full auto. I guess I could make an argument that I need arms like bazookas, mortars and that M60 at home too, just in case I am called up for the militia in case the Rooskies, infidels, or whoever invade. I know I fall in the regulated category as a military retiree.


But here's what I figure I need to be secure in my home, and for hunting and for reasonable recreation. Maybe others feel the need for lots of firepower, I don't walk in their shoes or know what's lurking behind their doors.

Bruce Day
NRA member and cert. shot gun and pistol instructor

[Rick Losey]

Bruce, if it does gets down to very limited ownership - that is a great set to have -

[Dean Romig]

While the tragedy of these mindless murders should always be in our memories and our discussions of firearms ownership we need to remain rational. So many people are missing the point - ignoring or perhaps not even remembering or knowing just why the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America was drafted in the first place! We're not even discussing that point and I believe it should be in every discussion of our God-given right to keep and bear arms.

[Mills Morrison]

All of the amendments that are the Bill of Rights were designed to protect the people from the government. All of them address specific abuses the early colonists suffered at the hands of the British government and the early colonial government. You will not hear a politician today tell you that, though.