No makers identification on frames

[Ralph English]

Some time ago on this forum there was a discussion about Parkers (transitional guns from Parker Bros. to Remington Parkers) that have NO makers identification engraved on the frame. THE PARKER STORY mentions these type guns on pages 155-156. I wish to reopen that topic and start a list of such guns. I know of three such guns: (1) A DHE 410 ga skeet gun, sn 236223. (2) A CHE 12 ga skeet gun, 28" bbls, sn 236277 (a 2nd bbl set was added by Remington Parker) (3) A VHE 410 ga, sn 236417. I hope others have interest in these Parker oddities and will add to this list! Thanks

[Dave Tercek]

Ralph, A friend of mine won the Parker raffle gun years ago, when the meeting was held in Pittsburgh. He has since sold it. If I recall it was a VH grade with no frame markings. Perhaps the PGCA has a record of the gun.
Dave

[James Brown]

Mr. Carmichael (Hammer Gun) has a DHE 12 that fits your category listed in the items for sale section. He shows ser. no. as 236397.
James

[Daryl Corona]

20 ga. VHE 235968 with no frame markings as well as 20 ga. PHE 235974 lacking same.

[Dean Romig]

A friend has a very high original condition 16 ga. GHE with no frame marking at all. It also has another very unusual feature in that the hard rubber buttplate has no marking either, yet the grip cap is marker Parker Bros. Meriden Ct. it is also in the 236,ooo serial range.

[Josh Loewensteiner]

Great "Parker's Found" topic here. Lets see what we can find.

[George M. Purtill]

This is an interesting topic. I think one sold recently at Julia's.
Any others?

[Richard Flanders]

VHE20 236007. No Parker markings on outside of frame. Parker Bros. with patent date on the table.

[Scott Smith]

I once owned 235,965. A 20 ga. VHE with 26" barrels. No marking on sides, or bottom of frame. Gun had a pistol grip and DHBP without spur.

[Dean Romig]

This is the GHE 16 I referenced in my previous post, 236199.
I wish I had taken better pictures to show the Robert Runge engraving in more detail.

Has anybody else seen this style of buttplate on an early Remington era Parker? This is only the second one I've seen.




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[Jim DiSpagno]

Dean, I've seen that type on Remington shotguns of pre-war age. But not too often

[charlie cleveland]

rather unusal but nice guns anyway...wish i had one....charlie

[George M. Purtill]

Dean -that is a wicked unusual butt plate. It looks like it was born on that gun. never seen one. The usual era plate is a Parker without Bros non-spurred plate.

[Dean Romig]

Dean -that is a wicked unusual butt plate. It looks like it was born on that gun. never seen one. The usual era plate is a Parker without Bros non-spurred plate.

Right George, but what did Remington use for a replacement for the "Parker Brothers" dog's head butt plate before they manufactured their own "Parker" dog's head butt plate? The one I posted the picture of, I believe - possibly a "transition" butt plate...?

[George M. Purtill]

This is a very good thread that Ralph English started in 2012. I ran into it in the course of my Remington research.
The interesting thing for me is that NONE of these guns are Remington guns per se. Remington guns are thought to be 236531 and onwards. All of these so called transitional guns are before that.
However, what we have or at least I have learned is that there are no bright lines in Remington or Parker production.
Dates and serial numbers are estimates only. There is a lot of room on each side.

[George M. Purtill]

Right George, but what did Remington use for a replacement for the "Parker Brothers" dog's head butt plate before they manufactured their own "Parker" dog's head butt plate? The one I posted the picture of, I believe - possibly a "transition" butt plate...?

Agreed. I think there was a period of time, perhaps turmoil, where they were not sure what they were going to change or keep. In my upcoming article on the Remington guns, you will see my position is that they told management that they were going to NOT lose money on the Parker operation, nothing would be thrown away and nothing new would be started until they had to.

[Dean Romig]

This is a very good thread that Ralph English started in 2012. I ran into it in the course of my Remington research.
The interesting thing for me is that NONE of these guns are Remington guns per se. Remington guns are thought to be 236531 and onwards. All of these so called transitional guns are before that.
However, what we have or at least I have learned is that there are no bright lines in Remington or Parker production.
Dates and serial numbers are estimates only. There is a lot of room on each side.


I would suggest that these particular guns may have been those that had been started before the purchase/sale of the 'Parker Gun works' as part of the inventory of machinery, tools, parts, completed guns and uncompleted guns, and finished after Remington Arms ownership.

Notice that the butt plate on 236199 has the correct spur too.




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[Frank Childrey]

I have a 12 gauge Trojan that, too, has no marking on the sides of the frame. Markings on the rib, barrel flats, and water table are all consistent with Parker Bros. usual markings including "Overload Proved." Interestingly, according to the letter, Parker Bros. made the gun in 1930 but it did not ship until 1934. I found the gun in Memphis, TN and acquired it through the good offices of M. V. Highsmith.

[Frank Childrey]

Serial number is 234987.

[Steve Cambria]

Ser.#236,533. No frame markings.
R.I.P. Lt .Cmdr. Averill

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/cambo1021/DSC_3328.jpg (http://s1073.photobucket.com/user/cambo1021/media/DSC_3328.jpg.html)

BTW, has anyone ever pinned down a date ( month,week) when guns started flowing from Ilion or as a follow-up, when shipments officially ceased from Meriden?

[George M. Purtill]

Steve- not sure about dates, the first Ilion gun is said to be 241154. it is supposed to be January 1938. The Honorable Charles Bishop could answer this question because that gun is in the Books.

[Pat Boccuzzi]

236050, 12,DHE,28"ST,SG The guns engraving is
Just super and above the norm.

[Dean Romig]

How about some pictures Pat?

[Dean Romig]

236252 was Burton G. Spiller's grouse gun and it has no logo on the frame. It had a leather faced pad the last time I saw it. I will always wish it were mine but I know it's in good hands.

[scott kittredge]

i have 236273 , a VHE, P G stock, single trigger 28 in. 12 ga. with no logo on frame but the logo on rib are the norm for a VH

[edgarspencer]

My GHE 28 is 236475. Rib is marked but nowhere else. I believe it was the last Grade 2 ball gripped 28.
The high condition DHE 20 in Julia's auction was 236488, and was marked on the bottom of the receiver

[Bill Murphy]

Those who are participating in this study need to indicate "No frame marking of Parker Brothers", "Whether or not there is a rib marking", "Serial number", "Whether Parker Brothers is marked on the water table". Thanks.

[edgarspencer]

Those who are participating in this study need to indicate "No frame marking of Parker Brothers", "Whether or not there is a rib marking", "Serial number", "Whether Parker Brothers is marked on the water table". Thanks.

Damn, I thought this thread was moving along pretty well.

[Pete Lester]

12ga GHE 237880. No Parker Bros. on the sides of the receiver. Engraved "Parker" on bottom of receiver behind forend. Parker Bros. on rib inscription and stamped into the water table.

[Bill Murphy]

Come on, Edgar. Read Pete's post. That wasn't so hard.

[George M. Purtill]

Come on, Edgar. Read Pete's post. That wasn't so hard.

But Bill- Pete posted on a gun that has maker's identification on the frame- it's just on the bottom. So that's not an example you can thump Edgar with.

[edgarspencer]

Yes, Bill. I read Pete's post. I'm not sure what you're on about, but you probably forgot the intent of the thread.
Here's what the OP said in the initial post:

"Some time ago on this forum there was a discussion about Parkers (transitional guns from Parker Bros. to Remington Parkers) that have NO makers identification engraved on the frame. THE PARKER STORY mentions these type guns on pages 155-156. I wish to reopen that topic and start a list of such guns."

[Pete Lester]

Yes, Bill. I read Pete's post. I'm not sure what you're on about, but you probably forgot the intent of the thread.
Here's what the OP said in the initial post:

"Some time ago on this forum there was a discussion about Parkers (transitional guns from Parker Bros. to Remington Parkers) that have NO makers identification engraved on the frame. THE PARKER STORY mentions these type guns on pages 155-156. I wish to reopen that topic and start a list of such guns."

I guess I missed something. The word engraved confused me. External on the sides of the frame is where we would find Parker Bros. to be "engraved". Parker Bros. on the water table is "stamped". Are we looking for guns devoid of both the engraved and stamped "Parker Bros." on the frame.?

[Erick Dorr]

I think Ralph is looking for Remington Parkers without Parker Bros. on the side of the frame and without Parker on the bottom of the frame if I understand correctly.
Erick

[Ralph English]

That is connect. Thanks "Gunner"!

[edgarspencer]

William Moore has a DHE 20 ga listed on his website, with no external makers name on the frame, sides or bottom. Serial Number 236110 (an A&F gun) Interestingly, it has a dogs head butt plate, instead of skeleton butt plate.