BH Again, Help with Value, Restore or not?

[Eric Olson]

I have re-newed my PGCA membership so this should not be deleted! I am trying to determine the "as is" value and secondly see if a restoration would be financally a good move or not, to increase its value and desirability.

The Research Letter is attached as well as (hopefully) enough pictures to help the more knowledgable give me an estimate on its value and if restoration would be financially wise. This gun will be for sale at some time in the probable near future.

This was purchased from the family of Mr. Fred Brewester who was a very wealthy business man with interests in Standard Oil and the New Haven and Hartford Railroad Co, The Second National Bank of New Haven, United Illuminating Co as well as Trustee of New Haven Savings Bank. When he married in 1908 in New Haven, Connecticut, he constructed "Edgerton" Mansion and it was called "one of the last great examples of English Manor House in America". He passed away in 1959 and the mansion was demolished after the death of his wife in 1964 and the property donated to New Haven to be used as a park as per Mr. Brewester's wishes.

Any help will be very much appreciated.

[Bruce Day]

Don't mess with it. If you are going to sell it, let the next owner risk a bad restoration. There is one restorer who would do a wonderful job, but since you are selling it, the safe bet is to not. There is a possibility that a first class metal restoration would add more than the cost of the restoration, but you would have a 6-9 month delay and a $1500 to 2000 investment. It is not certain that you would gain, particularly since you have shown photos here and interested purchasers would know that it is restored.

The history is interesting, but all these high grade Parkers have an interesting history. Unless its somebody beyond the normal high end fame and fortune, it won't add value in my opinion. If it were Gen Patton, a president, Hemingway, etc it would make a difference, but if its just another monied banker with a mansion on the hill, well, so what? I can trace back several of my guns to interesting people and it makes a nice story, but it doesn't add to the value.

You can talk up the straight stock, about 20% of B's were straight stock, but those who favor straight stocks were and still are in the clear minority however they talk about how desireable straight stocks are.

Here is the 2012 Fjestad Blue Book page. I'd call it 30%, others will have their own opinions.

[Eric Olson]

PGCA Letter. Also apparently Remington replaced the barrels with 26" steel barrels and upgraded it to ejectors. The double triggers were replaced to a single trigger, unknown who or when it was done.

[David Noble]

That gun is just too nice to warrant restoration IMHO. I don't believe it would increase the value enough to offset the expense of doing it, and I don't believe it would increase the desirability any. It's a shame about the replacement barrels, but short of finding the originals, anything else is just going to be a replacement anyway that would need to be divulged at the time of sale. At least they are possible Remington replacements.
The condition and provenance of this gun is enough to justify it's collectability, desirability and value just as it is. The PGCA letter proves it was used as an "exhibition" gun.
I would recommend putting time and effort into documenting Mr. Brewester, his ownership and use of the gun including family or historical pictures of him holding/shooting the gun etc. Possible avenues of information could be garnered from gun clubs and newspaper/magazine articles from the local area. A man of his standing surely would have been noted in local publications if he particpated in shooting events. Usually this kind of provenance will add interest to the gun and make it easier to sell.

[Richard Flanders]

Restore it with what? Another set of non original barrels? What's the point? I'd leave it just as it is. I see no reason whatsoever to change a thing.

[Linn Matthews]

Why on earth would you restore a gun like that? Once restored it loses all originality and there is a great probability that it loses some value. Let someone else take on that responsibility (IMHO)

[edgarspencer]

Eric, I think your photos are quite good, and perhaps it my aging eyes, but I failed to see anything that would even hint at the thought of doing any restoration, freshening or otherwise. So, I'd have to agree with Mister Day: "Don't mess with it". I thinks it's the rare exception where 'restored' trumps originality in the price realized, but even more rare when it ups the desirability. It's 'original' only once.
It's only my opinion, and I'm sure it doesn't apply to every gun listed in the Blue Book, but I don't put a lot of import on their paint brush valuations. If selling your gun is the plan, trust the better dealers, known for actually selling high grade Parkers, to guide you. An 0 framed B will pretty much sell itself, Remington barrelled or not.
I don't recall the previous thread by you being deleted, but, if a post fails to meet the forum's guidelines, I don't think the moderators differentiate between PGCA members and non PCGA members.

[John Campbell]

Any history or inherent value in this gun would be totally destroyed by "restoration."

What's more, there is no point in even thinking about it. The gun is beautiful as it is!

I'd keep it just as it is. And encourage the next owner to do likewise.

Best, Kensal

[Bruce Day]

Any history or inherent value in this gun would be totally destroyed by "restoration."

...


I do not concur. The PGCA restored the John Browning AH . Many, many, high grade guns with history have been restored. Some are publicly known to have been restored, others not known and I'm not saying. I know of museum Parkers that have been restored. Others in the top collections have been touched up or well restored by the one or two good restorers. Some restorations result in increased value, but many many have bad results.

I saw a restored GHE 20ga go for $13,000 then $17,500, then resold for $22,000. Four years ago at Julia's three high grade Parkers were initially determined and cataloged as high condition original. The restorer personally corrected the Julia error. Auction results remained as originally estimated for two of the guns and the other went for above estimate, so for all three value increased over what they had been before restoration .

But, I still wouldn't mess with this one.

[John Campbell]

Mr Day:
While I respect you views, I must demur. The grounds for "restoring" anything should be the respectful reversal of accidental devastation or gross neglect to the point of harm to the article at hand. This gun exhibits none of that. It is a classic example of gunmaking art that should be left alone... and its history pondered. This gun has provenance.

To me, even the word "restore" is chilling. Restore to what? New? Then what?

Personally, I'd rather have John Browning's personally handled, sweat-stained stock than any restoration by any restorer.

Just my view of things. And I certainly respect yours.

Best, Kensal

[Bruce Day]

Historically, people with money and desire to acquire the best Parkers have sought high condition guns, high condition being defined as what a Parker looked like when new. Most restorations fall short and value has been reduced. I can privately point to specific situations where that has occured. When the restoration has been so exact and true to Parker standards at the time the gun was made, I have personally seen increases in value, and I mentioned several above. There are more, but it requires a level of skill that most restorers lack and for most restorations, the restoration is obvious, which has historically reduced value.

By the way, the Czar's gun, at $265,000 the highest selling Parker in history, was publicly disclosed to have a replaced stock. Value destroyed?

How you or I feel about it doesn't matter. If you want a sweat stained gun, the history in the market is that stains and significant use indications reduce value. Just watch the market and keep track of good guns for a number of years, I think you might reach the same conclusions. What you see here in this forum is only a small part of the Parker collecting community and I suggest to you that the top players who pay large sums do not hang on this forum.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Kensal,

You have to understand that Bruce travels in the Inner Circle of Parkerdom. He is parlay to insight and information neither you nor I could dream of having.


Destry

[Eric Olson]

Great - one question answered - to leave it origional.

[Rich Anderson]

I wouldn't touch that gun in any way shape or form. The V grade replacement barrels might hurt it some but they are documented in the letter. What a great gun even without the original damascuss bbls. If it were mine I'd look for a set of 20ga damascuss bbls and have them fitted to the gun. There around I sold a set this summer. My one question relates to the checkered butt as a BH would have a skelton butt plate and I saw no mention of this in the letter.

Buce I much prefer the straight grip over a PG. I think they carry better and are faster to the shoulder. The straight grip guns outnumber the PG ones for me.

[Richard Flanders]

Good for you Eric. I can think of only ONE thing that I would ever even dream of doing to that gun and that would be to get the original barrels back if they are still in existence, and if they were in bad shape in some way, I'd have them refinished/restored by the very best, regardless of cost. And I'd keep both sets of bbls, of course, and get the gun into a very nice and well-fitted trunk case. That would make a stunning set.

Rich: if you look at the butt there are two plugged screw holes so it looks like it may have had a skeleton butt that was removed.

[Dean Romig]

A lovely little BHE just the way it is. I'm glad you have made the decision to leave it as it is.
One wonders why the skeleton steel butt plate was removed...? The filled screw holes are plainly visible and the letter doesn't specify "no butt". That's not a problem in my opinion... just a curiosity.

[Bruce Day]

I like straight grip guns too, but the market sure didn't.

I have a wonderful little 1904 CHE 16ga , really a sweet gun, but it was sent back in 1937 to have the original fine damascus barrels replaced by the latest Remington fluid steel barrels. They did them right with tapered rib, reinforced lug, double Lyman ivory beads, significant contour, 1910 bolt plate and bolt, and chokes at .012 and .033 but I'd sure like to find the damascus barrels. Probably ended up in a bomb casing.

[Brian Dudley]

The gun is not in bad condition as it is. Finishes are good and there are a good amount of case colors remaining. This gun should not be restored. It would take a lot of abuse and wear for this gun to get to needing a restoration.

[Stephen Hodges]

Nice gun

[Destry L. Hoffard]

A quote from Mr. Day:

"What you see here in this forum is only a small part of the Parker collecting community and I suggest to you that the top players who pay large sums do not hang on this forum."

I notice he certainly spends a lot of time here, but then again so do I. We both must be the kind of low end buyers / collectors of junk guns that frequent these sorts of internet forums.


DLH

[Robert Delk]

Yeah, some people with the big bucks buy a lot of properly restored Parkers for large sums and those same people have been known to have the very best restorers redo guns and call them "original." One late collector comes to mind in regards to Parkers and another in regards to Winchesters some of which recently went to auction.A few decades go by and who is to know?

[Rich Anderson]

I have restocked a couple, made straight grips out of PG on two but have never had one restored to factory original. I like the aged look of worn (or none) case color, a dent or a scratched stock brings back memories of a hunt or asks the question, what happened here? A well cared for used gun has class and experience I wouldn't want to remove that.

[Daryl Corona]

Eric;
I agree with Rich, Edgar and the rest, not to touch that nice gun. I would love to own a B grade 20 especially with a straight stock. In my opinion the replacement barrels are documented and don't hurt the value. I, like Rich, just love straight stocks as they are much more comfortable to carry all day, handle quicker when needed and they just look so sexy. Most times you will never recoup the cost of refinishing when you sell. The "big time" Parker collectors just put them in a safe. Guys like me, Destry, Rich and most of the members of this forum love those guns with character and original condition. We shoot them and use them as they were made to be used. To hunt with.

[greg conomos]

What a worn out topic....things must be slow in the Parker world.

I wouldn't restore that gun, it's too nice. But there are certainly some Parkers deserving of restoration. I had a GH restored...prior to that, 8 guys out of 10 would not have held it to their cheek for fear of the grunge never coming off. The 2 guys out of 10 were named Ernest T. Bass and Otis.

[Bill Murphy]

The checkwriters can do what they want, because they are only interested in the investment aspect of collecting. Regardless of the number of times I push the "Thanks" button for pictures of nice guns posted by the checkwriters, I detest the collecting themes of these people. I am only hitting the "Thanks" button because I enjoy the pictures, not because I appreciate what they are doing to the guns. I could own the guns they own, but choose not to.

[edgarspencer]

What you see here in this forum is only a small part of the Parker collecting community and I suggest to you that the top players who pay large sums do not hang on this forum.

What I see here, as opposed to what you "suggest", is a pretty nice cross section of the "Parker collecting community". I'm at a loss as to how you suppose to know the net worth of those who 'hang' here, what kind of players we represent, or what we choose to collect. I had dinner last Friday night with a wonderful bunch of guys, many of whom are, to use your term, top players. No one amongst that group at the annual meeting, or at the shooting grounds, exhibited any distinction in their appreciation for the guns we all brought to show or shoot. The man who sits on one hundred ones, sits no lower than the man who sits on one hundred one hundreds.

[Dennis V. Nix]

Forgive me as I am new to Parker shotguns but the gun in question is one of the most beautiful guns I have seen regarding Parkers. To my untrained eye it appears somebody replaced the Damascus original barrels with new V grade barrels. Maybe Mr. Brewster simply wanted a set of fluid steel barrels and didn't care about the grade. If so doesn't that make the barrels original to the gun for Mr. Brewster? I love the gun and wouldn't change a thing. I would happily use it and be proud of it.

[Pat Dugan]

I had a set of 12 ga Titanic barrels with forend that I paid $ 300 for knowing someone had
tried to make them fit a 1 1/2 frame. I put them for sale on this forum years ago, told the buyer that they were altered and they were bought without the forend simply for the Titanic rib to repair his barrels or make a 2nd set of Titanic barrels out of his lower grade ones, would this be restoration or deception?

[Eric Olson]

OK - the first question of restoration is answered - leave origional. Second question is a "guesstimate" on the value. Mr Day's thread on Page 1 shows the Blue Book and he puts the gun at 30% - and I would rate it much higher but, again, I am not an expert. What do you experienced members think?

[Destry L. Hoffard]

None of us travel in the same circles as Mr. Day, it's plain and simple to anybody with eyes to see. I post my flea market items for sale and he posts pictures of gun he doesn't own. The difference is huge obviously, he's one of our top men and should be rewarded. We are all less when he's not in charge, I'm going to become a life member immediately so I can vote for him when he runs for president of the organization.

DLH

[calvin humburg]

Bruce is my friend. He knows a lot and always is ready to visit about the guns. I can say he likes his guns as much or more than you. And just how do you get a gun with out writing a check? I am the worst person but I try. I think we all should read 1st John, I believe it's just 5 chapter.

<----- Sam says we should give it a rest.

[Steve Huffman]

Have you ever noticed you can begin to dislike a person because of who they run with and you dont even know that person. Just a thought !!

[calvin humburg]

I understand completly. If someone is like that do you really care if they like you? I have 3 friends that is all I need. Got God and my family and well that will do.

[Bill Murphy]

When discussing the fluid steel barrels on this B Grade 20, posters seem to forget or not know that these barrels were installed at Remington by Parker Gun Works employees and have factory markings. They are factory original. With two sets of Remington repair codes, I doubt that any work done on the gun was done by anyone other than Parker Gun Works employees. This gun is original with factory finish and should not be restored, whether the value would be increased or not.

[Dean Romig]

I agree completely.

[calvin humburg]

If it was my gun the 1937 and checkered butt would disappair. I can guarentee.

[Bill Murphy]

The checkered butt is probably from the Parker Gun Works. I would not fool with it. I kind of like the 1937 too. Maybe this gun has my name on it.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Calvin,

What makes Bruce so unpopular, most of the time, are statements like the one I quoted. Regular guys, which obviously Bruce considers himself above, just don't appreciate that sort of thing.

DLH

[August Luchow]

Fix the screws and leave the rest alone.

August

[Craig Larter]

Great gun I would love it and leave it alone---it is what it is---beautiful gun. Enjoy it for what it is----shoot a few birds with it every year, do nothing but use it and care for it.
I just plan to keep my modest collection of vintage SxS shotguns in usable condition and in the words of a very wise man, Austin Hogan, have fun with them.

[Eric Olson]

I am decided to list the gun for sale in the Members Section before going to Gunbroker or an Auction House.

[Rich Anderson]

I have not seen it there yet.

[Steve Huffman]

:corn::

[Dean Romig]

I suspect he's been busy answering PM's :whistle:

[Eric Olson]

Out of town for the weekend - hopefully will post Monday PM - or interested parties can PM me with questions. STILL not sure what it is worth.

[Steve Huffman]

You mean your taking offers until Monday ? ANYONE WANT TO MAKE A OFFER !

[Eric Olson]

OK - In response to the interest, I have put up an Ad.

[charlie cleveland]

i ll start the bid with a dollar.. but then if it were my gun it would not be for sale... charlie

[Mike Shepherd]

The V grade replacement barrels might hurt it some but they are documented in the letter.

I can't find any mention of them in the letter.

When discussing the fluid steel barrels on this B Grade 20, posters seem to forget or not know that these barrels were installed at Remington by Parker Gun Works employees and have factory markings. They are factory original. With two sets of Remington repair codes, I doubt that any work done on the gun was done by anyone other than Parker Gun Works employees.

I looked in The Parker Story, page 158 and the picture provided by Eric above. I interpret one repair code as RJ3, which I translate as meaning the repair or alteration or whatever was done in November of 1940. The 3 in RJ3 has no lookup chart in TPS that I can find.

The other repair code XP3 I can only translate that the work was done in November, the P not being in the year codes. Am I misreading the P? Is it a B (1955)?

The "V Grade 20 gauge" stamped on the lug matches the protocol shown in the picture of the lug of the D grade 20 on page 162, which is in the chapter about Parker/Remingtons.

In TPS I can't find any examples of the serial number stamped in the same location as on Eric's gun. But there aren't very many pictures of Parker/Remington barrel flats either. I don't own any Remington Parkers and so don't have any examples to compare this to.

On page 129 in TPS they discuss reports of aftermarket ejectors by third parties and give an apparently first hand account of a BH, serial number 79051. with non-standard ejectors.

The pictures of Eric's knuckle and forend iron look identical to my Parker ejectors guns. The serial number on Eric's forend iron is in the same location as my ejector guns. The May 1 1901 patent date appears on Eric's forend iron in the same place as it does on my guns. It seems to me that someone would have had to tig weld up, re-stamp, re-case color, and re-patina the serial number in the forend iron or they started with a forend iron without a serial number on it like the Parker/Remington factory would have. Same thoughts on the water table. Seems to me unlikely that a rascal would go to all that trouble for such a high cost to low benefit ratio effort.

I don't know when Parker or Parker/Remington first started putting "Overload Proved" in an oval on the barrel flats or "Made in the USA" but there might be some time information there.

Eric that is a cool gun. Thanks for posting it here.




Best,


Mike

[Bill Murphy]

I don't know about the repair codes, only that they are repair codes. As for "third party ejectors", that's not what they are. They are Parker ejectors. As for the forend, no part of an extractor forend, including wood, was used by Parker or Remington to make an ejector gun. This is not the forend that came on the gun. As for the V Grade markings on the lug, Remington replacement barrels were almost always marked V Grade. Only barrel lugs on Remington made guns were normally marked with the actual grade of the gun. This gun is absolutely right, and factory modified, regardless of any omission in the letter. Rich's statement about the letter documenting the barrels was an oversight, but PGCA letters will almost never address any specific Remington modifications.

[Bill Murphy]

After another look, I think PJ3 is June 1940, and XF3 is December 1937, the barrel date. The ejectors and forend were probably installed with the barrels. The single trigger was installed probably on one or the other of the dates. What a piece of Parker-Remington history.

[Dean Romig]

The serial number, 84040, on the left barrel flat against the lug is exactly the way Remington stamped the serial number on the barrel assembly. Bill answered all of the other questions.

[Mike Shepherd]

Does anybody know when Parker / Remington started stamping "Made in the USA" on the barrel flats?

[Bruce Day]

Insightful that you should ask, Mike.

Not at end of production in 1939, assuming this gun is representative of production marking.

[Mike Shepherd]

Thanks Bruce. In your picture the "PARKER GUN WORKS" stamped through the oval "OVERLOAD PROOVED" matches Eric's BH exactly.

I read in TPS this morning that Remington Parker production ceased in 1942.

Best,

Mike

[calvin humburg]

I think there is always a little speculation when desifering anything dead men did, clear back to the stone age. They think they can read hirowglfrics (picture words). But who really knows. The dead guys!

[edgarspencer]

What happened to the pictures that Eric posted? I realize someone added some of them to the 'for-sale' thread, though perhaps not all. Removing the pictures from this thread sure makes the original questions, and responses seem like walking into the room right after someone delivered the punchline.

[Russ Jackson]

Does anybody know when Parker / Remington started stamping "Made in the USA" on the barrel flats?

The latest gun I own is " 241685 " and it is not stamped on it either ! Russ

[Mike Shepherd]

I am posting this because I found another set of Parker barrels with "Made in USA" stamped on them.

Here is another set of barrels stamped "Made in USA" on a Parker 20 advertised on GunsInternational:

http://images.gunsinternational.com/listings/100306682-2-L.JPG

It is an A Grade two barrel set and I think the barrels shown in the picture I linked to are what the seller states are the original barrels.

Here is a link to the classified:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Parker-20ga-Shotgun-Two-sets-of-Barrels.cfm?gun_id=100306682

Here is an image of of the barrel flats on Mr. Olsen's gun:
http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19451&d=1352762245

[David Noble]

[QUOTE=Mike Shepherd;90188]I am posting this because I found another set of Parker barrels with "Made in USA" stamped on them.

Here is an image of of the barrel flats on Mr. Olsen's gun:
QUOTE]

That's Mr. Noble's gun now! :whistle:

Mike, is there to be an A in your future?:)
Thanks for the post!

[David Noble]

Both of the barrels for that AH have multiple Remington repair codes. The "Made in USA" barrels (the ones they believe are reproduction) have a repair date of 1937, the same date as the replacement barrels for my BH. Perhaps that was only done for a while in that year?

[Mike Shepherd]

Congratulations David! I really like that gun. I am queer for lightweight small bores. I have gone back and looked at your (now) BHE20 several times.

No new-to-me AHEs for me. Just looking at what is out there.

Best,

Mike

[George M. Purtill]

Congratulations David
That is a great gun. It needs a PP story.

[Mike Shepherd]

Both of the barrels for that AH have multiple Remington repair codes. The "Made in USA" barrels (the ones they believe are reproduction) have a repair date of 1937, the same date as the replacement barrels for my BH. Perhaps that was only done for a while in that year?

Seems a likely theory to me.

I couldn't read the repair codes on your gun clearly. Would you mind telling me what the one toward the breech was? "XP" or "XF" or "X?"

thanks,

Mike

[todd allen]

What happened to the pictures that Eric posted? I realize someone added some of them to the 'for-sale' thread, though perhaps not all. Removing the pictures from this thread sure makes the original questions, and responses seem like walking into the room right after someone delivered the punchline.
Yes. Where are the pictures of this gun?

[David Noble]

Mike, the codes are XF3 and RJ3. Here are some pics.

[Mike Shepherd]

Oh that's nice David. I especially like the checkering and the straight grip stock. And it is light. And the barrel was built to shoot shells with the same pressures as our current shells. I have no idea what you look like but you will look good walking in to flush the bob white from in front of the dog if you are carrying that.

Thanks for the date code answer.

Best,

Mike

[David Noble]

Notice in the PGCA letter, the gun made in 1896, after being sent to at least three expositions, was finally shipped to A. A. Kellogg, a popular hunting and fishing store in New Haven in October 1898.
The first time the gun was returned for service, the letter says the owners name was Fred Brewester. The second time it was returned his last name is Brewster. I'm curious if this was a mistake in the PGCA letter or in the original order books?
I'm also curious about the "redress stock and tip" part. Could it be that is when the skeleton buttplate was removed and the butt recheckered? And what is the "tip" referring to?

[todd allen]

Aside from cleaning up a couple of screws, that gun should NOT be touched!

[David Holes]

I would like to touch it, fondle it, maybe even shoot it. Thats a dandy.

[Dennis V. Nix]

That gun is absolutely beautiful. Would the present owner like to adopt me? It is the Christmas season after all and I am careful with my toys.

Dennis