Will It Blow?

[Bruce Day]

A fellow we met at the Pheasant Fest had wanted me to look at his Parkers, and we met for an hour this afternoon at the local club. He inheirited from his grandfather a couple Parkers, a DH 16 and a GH 10, both damascus. The 16 had been neglected but not abused, had a pad but was a nice gun under the grime and surface rust. The barrels looked good, so I grabbed a couple shells. So many believe that damascus barrels were for black powder only and fear the stories about damascus barrels exploding, unraveling and all such things that people here know as nonsense. So he had never shot the gun, we loaded it, he held it at arms length and pulled the triggers. The gun went pop, pop, and I was priviledged to be there to see a grown man as happy as a kid that he could shoot his forebears gun. He will take some pheasants with it this fall then send the gun off for some cosmetic work. We then shot two rounds of skeet with it and he had fun breaking clays from the first shot on.

And then I get an email from another acquaintance with photos of the test arrangement he made to shoot a 12ga P with twist barrels. Again, pop, pop and nothing happens except a big smile comes.

We all know these matters but so many do not and I know we will have a couple new PGCA members out of these experiences. You can shoot these old guns and not have to dress like Ralphie in the snow suit in A Christmas Story ( like I did the first time with damascus barrels) .

[greg conomos]

I much prefer the holding it at arms length method over that concrete bunker method.

But really, if one is freaky about shooting such a gun, firing a couple shells doesn't mean much other than it withstood the firing of a couple shells. Maybe the next two will cause the gun to blow up, eh?

If I were concerned about a Damascus or twist gun blowing up, and I'm not, I'd at least 'proof' it with some shells that are heavier than I intended to ever actually use.

[Bruce Day]

I had no concern that anything bad would happen, none at all. I loaded the 16ga with the same load that Parker used for patterning that gun at that time, a 7/8oz, 2 1/2 dram equivalent load. Certainly later Parker load tables and hang tags I have posted here show up to 1 oz 2 3/4 dre loads for patterning and service, and of course up to SAAMI proof standards for the time for proof loads. The intent was to show that the gun was shootable, in fact, fun and easy to shoot with the loads Parker intended.

Yes, if I felt that re-proofing was necessary, I could have loaded very heavy loads, but why do that and subject the gun to something that might crack an old stock when it is not needed. And I'm sure the owner didn't want that.

This is another Nebraska gun and the grandfather owned thousands of acres and the finest hotel in Minden, where eastern hunters would come by train and auto and stay for a week hunting the marshes and upland fields. Many brought fine Parkers with them and Nebraska came to have a culture of fine shotguns. The Mahoney 20ga hammer D that I have shown here came from close to this 16ga.

Many of these old guns were shot with very heavy loads, much higher than I would shoot. The owner told me of finding his grandfathers hand loads and shooting a few and how much they whacked his shoulder. I've heard many stories like that, and conclude that old timers experimented to see how much smokeless powder and shot they could cram in a shotshell for their own special recipes that were guaranteed to shoot down low flying aircraft. These had to be in excess of Parker proof loading and I suspect this was one manner in which some barrels were blown. I suspected that this gun had been proofed loaded a few times since original Parker proofing but its overall sound condition ( though dingy and grimy) is a testiment to lasting Parker design and construction. By the way, the wood was that gorgeous pattern Circassian walnut under a dingy oil and dirt finish. I'm like a kid on a treasure hunt when I can rub and wipe off some crud and see gorgeous figured walnut hidden away under there.

[greg conomos]

The reason I don't like firing a gun from a rest, without human contact, is that it is much more likely you'll do some cosmetic damage to the stock as a result of recoil.

[Bruce Day]

I agree. I recommend some sort of bungee and blanket arrangement to absorb recoil if a person doesn't want to hold it to his shoulder.

[Rick Losey]

ok - i'll ask

what does this guy normally fire that he even has this set up available :shock:

[Bruce Day]

That is part of a gun range by Lake Okoboji, Iowa. Cannons maybe, I donno.

[Eric Eis]

I agree. I recommend some sort of bungee and blanket arrangement to absorb recoil if a person doesn't want to hold it to his shoulder.

Or the old tried and true trick of a tire and a string works just fine and if you wrap the stock with some cloth no damage to the stock... Sometimes the old ways beat out the new ideas :corn:

[Justin Julian]

I've "tested" damascus and other old guns by holding them at arms length and leaning around to the back side of a medium sized tree trunk. Its hard to visualize, but easy to do, and it shields the face, neck and chest area behind the tree. Of course, I've never had anything explode either.

[Bruce Day]

or:


The owners other parker is a 10ga GH 32 dam uncut both ends and with gorgeous fiddleback black walnut both sides. This old growth wood is so hard to find now. That gun has a separated stock head and needs internal pinning and gluing before shooting. Gary Carmichael had asked a question about how many Parkers are left. Well , here are at least two more very decent guns that are worthy of preservation .

[Mark Landskov]

I do like Ruff Hunter with all of my guns (if I am not the original owner) and have no idea what has been through the barrels on them. I handload cartridges for all of my guns, which were made from 1872 on up. There have been a few where I had to extrapolate other load data for similar sized cartridges and then place my well being in the hands of God! I will not risk life and limb. I have been ridiculed for it, but I am still in one piece.
On a similar note....In 1986, we took the Missouri out for her first sea trial. I was part of the gun crew that test fired the first shots out of our 16 inch guns. It was the first time in 30 years or so after sitting idle. Being in the gun room, just a few feet from 200,000 pounds of recoiling gun was interesting! That was probably the ultimate test/proof firing I've ever dealt with. A service charge of 660 pounds of propellant behind a 2700 pound BL&P is pretty awesome. Cheers!

[Richard Flanders]

I've done the old 'arms length' thing in testing a damascus bbl'd Ithaca Flues 12ga. The forearm popped off but the bbls were/are just fine and I shot a round of skeet after the test firing. I just used a Federal target load. I think this apparatus Bruce showed is an excellent setup for test firing. I like the bungeed shot bag that will allow the gun to recoil some without shocking the stock too much. I would likely add some hvy sheepskin or soft leather to the bbl support saddle and enclose the stock in a sheepskin bag made just for that to prevent scuffing of any kind(I have lots of sheepskins). This is a very good setup for testing bbls. I have a couple of Caldwell Lead Sleds for sighting in rifles. Neither has much of a pad in the pocket where the buttstock fits. I spent about $100 in components trying to get a scope sighted in on a Win Mod 70 fwt .30-06 last year. Just couldn't get it to NOT print all over a 10" target at 100yds. Finally I realized that the too-hard seat for the butt was causing such jarring on recoil that the scope was loosening and moving all over. I folded up a thick wash cloth and put it in for a better pad for the butt and the issue instantly went away. None of these guns are meant to take being fired against a hard immovable object; you'll break the stock or jar something loose. I like this setup Bruce shows.

[Linn Matthews]

Appreciate this thread. Bruce--I am an admirer of your Parker Collection and your knowledge of the Brand. I think it is great that you are comfortable loading up an old "D" Parker and firing away (holding it at arms length is better than between your legs, certainly)
However, we spend a lot of time here on the Forum talking about wall thickness at various positions down the barrel and, subsequently, about the problems that can result from honing and whatever else to said barrel.
I hope before you "let her rip" you did a wall thickness measurement to make sure that you were safe when firing. I for one would miss your written commentary if something would cause that to go away.
Respectfully

Linn Matthews #37

[Bruce Day]

I did not take measurements. I forgot my bore gauge. I saw old pits, I saw nothing that would suggest it was ever honed, no bright clean bores or anything that gives me concern, I saw full length chokes, nothing that hinted to me that the barrels had been messed with. It had old small pits which I like to see because an old gun that has been neglected and shot a lot normally has pits. Without measuring , the walls looked low 30s to me. I have three other 16 ga's much like this one and am very used to these barrels. You look beyond the small pits and the dingy barrel outside and they were a beautiful set of tightly scrolled damascus barrels that were not made up of short, different pattern segments like you see in some G's.


I don't have a wall thickness gauge, only a bore gauge, but using a bore gauge you can tell if its been bored out beyond nominal, just not how much is left.

[Jeff Christie]

I'm the guy who created this 'Rube Goldberg' engineering marvel. It isn't a test bed- it started life as a shop project of a sergeant of mine's son in New Jersey. It was meant to hold my service match rifle (US Rifle Cal 30 M1) for cleaning from the muzzle end. It was out of perhaps and over abundance of caution that I went this route to test the PH, a very light 1 frame 12 ga.

It worked and worked very well.

[Bruce Day]

Just another day living on the edge, firing these old damascus guns.

Not much is as pretty as nice damascus barrels. Given a choice between fluid steel and damascus, I'll take the latter.

[Paul S Lewis]

Bless Sherman Bell.
I will be hunting next to this gun November 6th. My own GH in hand.
PSL

[Bruce Day]

Mark Landskov, being on a Missouri class battleship, indeed Missouri herself, had to be a highlight of a great Navy career. You had to be aware every moment that you were on a piece of national history. Just looking at those great state ships was awesome and being part of a crew, indeed , the gun crew which was the core mission of the ship, had to be a thrill. I can't imagine the noise, smoke and recoil when just one gun fired, much less a salvo from a battery of three. Maybe some time you can talk to us about it.

[Mark Landskov]

Thank you for the kind words, Bruce. It was a real privilege to serve on Missouri, especially in Turret One. I was part of the re-commissioning crew and was a few months shy of de-commissioning her.
The entire ship was a real work of art, built by artisans in their respective trades. My turret was 2,030,000 pounds of rotating steel and handling equipment and extended to almost 5 decks below. The turret main structure ranged from 7 to 17 inches of hardened steel, welded and riveted together in sections. I could just imagine a welder, sitting for his/her entire shift, in one spot, welding two pieces of 9 inch thick armor together! That's a lot of welding rods.
The entire ship required lots of manpower, but it sure was worth it. When we were underway, my division worked until 1800 or 1900 almost every night. When the brow was dropped in a foreign port, though, we were the first ones to go ashore, much to the chagrin of our shipmates. Preparations for shooting were extensive. Post-fire cleanup was even more intense! The bore brush was a beast and we used a capstan to pull it through the barrels. Our Master Chief Boatswain's Mate had 42 years under his belt, and he could really chew some ass! He made sure we did not spill any solvent on his teakwood deck. Yes, I did my turn at the Holystone. There were quite a few acres of wood to stone.
Indeed, if I could have....I would have tried to do my entire 20+ years on Missouri!

Note the projectiles on the left of the photo. Those were 2700 pound BL&P projectiles with full service charges. All nine of the main guns, plus six of the 5" guns fired at the same time. It is spectacular. The ship printed thousands of that photo so each of us could have at least one copy.

[Richard Flanders]

What a great picture Bruce!! Now, THAT is a show of pure, unadulterated raw power. That's how you take it to the bad guys for sure.

Don't hold back on these stories Mark. I'm sure we'd all love to hear more.

[Brian Stucker]

Take that battleship picture and remove the battleship. Next, put three old duck hunters in a pit blind in the middle of a flooded rice field. Add 2 hours of boredom with a dash of fog and no wind.

Now, a honker meanders by. Yep, that's what it looked like when we all fired....and missed.

[Bruce Day]

United States Ship Missouri is berthed at Pearl Harbor as a permanent living museum. Also at Pearl is the Arizona Memorial , Bowfin and an aviation museum. Its quite a place , not to be missed if you are in the area.

I used to fly into Marine Corps Air Station Kaneohe and leave the aircraft while flying back and forth to the outer islands for a week or two at a time. The historic hangers at Kaneohe are still in use and have been preserved to show the pockmarks from Japanese aircraft machine gun bullets. The historic Schofield Barracks are still there, remember "From Here to Eternity"? They are still home to the 24th Infantry Division.

[Mark Landskov]

The Bowfin is a real 'eye opener' for those that have never served on a submarine. I believe the modern attack subs are MUCH larger. I spent most of my 20 years in the surface fleet and have an admiration for those who volunteer for sub duty.