VHE SKEET GUN RESTOCKED?

[ed good]

Attached are pictures of a vhe skeet gun in 16 gauge. My research reveals that it may have been restocked. The wood is of much higher grade than one would usually sees on a vh grade gun. The forend checkering is much more extensive and finer than one would usually sees on a vh grade gun. And, there is no parker shield on the under side of the stock. What do you guys think?

[Rick Losey]

is the stock serial numbered to the gun?

[ed good]

oh: good question. however, i am reluctant to start turning screws to find out. same for the forend?

[Mills Morrison]

Looks like a replacement or a special order. I wonder if a PGCA letter would yield any clues?

[Mills Morrison]

. . . . or did someone refinish the stock and stain it a darker color?

[Pete Lester]

First off the pictures are lacking in their presentation of the gun to see much detail. I can see the forend checkering pattern is incorrect for a VHE BTFE. I believe Remington would sometimes use better wood than expected on V grades to use inventory. Typically a V grade skeet gun would have a checked butt rather than a DHBP. What does the serial number tell you, is this a Remington era gun? Does it have double beads, non automatic safety?

[Dean Romig]

Pretty wood... Nice leaf too.

[Pete Lester]

Ed, per the serialization book the gun was a capped pistol grip, option 5 (no BTFE). Given the lack of shield and non standard checkering pattern I would wager the gun is completely restocked.

[ed good]

this is a remington made gun, serial #240xxx. non auto safety. two ivory beads.

check is in the mail for the letter.

the leaf fell when i was taking the pictures. fall is a comin...

[ed good]

some more info... this gun includes an extra set of 30" belgian proofed barrels. receiver is also stamped with a belgian proof; which, makes one think it may have been restocked while in belgium having the extra set of barrels fit to the receiver?

[Mills Morrison]

Sounds like this gun has some interesting stories to tell, if only it could

[George M. Purtill]

Isn't/wasn't this gun on GunBroker?
Isn't the gun located in New Hampshire?

[ed good]

mills: you and i wonder the same thing when we see a fine old gun...who has it belonged to? what has it seen? where has it been? how did it get the way it is? and in my case, where and when it is going to its new home?

i agree, too bad they can't tell us more...

will let you know if letter reveals anything interesting.

[Brian Dudley]

Above statements regarding what is correct and not correct are true. I also want to add that the checkering pattern on the wrist is also not correct for any straight grip Parker. The pattern should wrap around the long guard. That pattern on there is more like what is seen on some Ithaca guns.

The BTFE looks to be the correct length. But... is the forend iron correct? Does it have the draw bolt? Also, what about a 1pc. forend loop? These are things we need to see in order to help figuring if the gun might be in any way correct?

Pete's lookup of the gun suggests that the gun did not have a BTFE originally.

[ed good]

brian: a forend draw bolt is present. not sure what you mean by 1 pc forend loop?

i am now leaning in the direction, that this is a skeet grade gun that was made with a pistol grip stock and beavertail forend. and later, the gun was restocked with upgraded wood. hopefully, the factory records letter will tell us more. take a look at the forend checkering. now, that is wonderful work.

one the practical side, i fired a round of skeet with the 26" barrels installed...i usually miss about 10 out of 25. new gun and all, dont ja know... this time, i only missed a few... could there be some magic here that we are not aware of? perhaps an old iroquois sachem stopped by illion one night and by the light of the full of the moon, put a positive hoodoo hex on this gun? i have never shot skeet that well with a new gun!

[George M. Purtill]

Original or not its a pretty skeet gun. Gunbroker has a lot more pictures of it.
And the extra barrels are a neat addition. The only thing I don't like is the DHBP.

[Bruce Day]

May I recommend The Parker Story? It answers almost all questions about Parkers and proper component configuration. For any person with more than a passing interest in Parkers, TPS is essential and leads to greater interest.

[ed good]

bruce: the parker story does provide some info re skeet guns. however, pictures of original guns are lacking. and as this one is of late remington manufacture, it may be subject to more variation than do the earlier meridan made guns? it has been my experience that the best source for info re parkers and other fine guns is the internet. forums like this one, for sale listings and web browser searches reveal a lot more info than can be found in the limited frozen in time media of the printed page...plus the parker factory records letter is a wonderful service, right along with the cody winchester and colt factory letter services...

[ed good]

george: i agree, it is a nice gun. hopefully, i will find out soon just how nice it is.

[Brian Dudley]

Ed,

Refer to TPS for info about the 1pc. forend loop. This was used on near all BTFE equipt guns. I see that your aftermarket set of barrels for this gun does have it. But there not no pic in the GB auction showing the forend loop on the original barrels to tell.

Another thing to take note of on this gun, showing that it has been worked over, is the blued forend iron and also top lever. Niether of these is correct.

And my final observation in regards to the BTFE being original or not is the iron itself. It is the correct forend iron (with draw bolt) for a BTFE. But, by the look of the S/N stamping on the iron, it seems that the numbers have been restamped to match the gun. The number style does not match and it is lightly struck and larger compared to the watertable. BTFE was most likely added at the same time that the other barrels were fitted and gun was "restored".

[ed good]

brian: its lookin more and more like this gun had a lotta work done to it while in belgium? i read somewhere that the belgians dont much care for case colors...may explain why the colors have been sadly removed, as well.

i once had a cased colt 1851 navy revolver that was flat out like new...except the father of the consigner had meticulously removed every bit of case color from the gun. and, as you may have guessed, he was belgian.

[Eric Eis]

Ed,

Refer to TPS for info about the 1pc. forend loop. This was used on near all BTFE equipt guns. I see that your aftermarket set of barrels for this gun does have it. But there not no pic in the GB auction showing the forend loop on the original barrels to tell.

Another thing to take note of on this gun, showing that it has been worked over, is the blued forend iron and also top lever. Niether of these is correct.

And my final observation in regards to the BTFE being original or not is the iron itself. It is the correct forend iron (with draw bolt) for a BTFE. But, by the look of the S/N stamping on the iron, it seems that the numbers have been restamped to match the gun. The number style does not match and it is lightly struck and larger compared to the watertable. BTFE was most likely added at the same time that the other barrels were fitted and gun was "restored".

Ed,
As a so called dealer that knows all about vintage shotguns and how they should be restored (ie. case colorss) I cannot believe you don't know what a forend loop is or at least researched it before you openned you mouth. :cuss: I agree with Brian but hey what do I know.. I've had more skeet guns cross my hands then you ever will...Eric

[ed good]

eric: is it really necessary to be so rude? we were having such a good time here until you chimed in...oh well, after all, this is a public forum...sorta like a public toilet, dont ja know...

[Eric Eis]

eric: is it really necessary to be so rude? we were having such a good time here until you chimed in...oh well, after all, this is a public forum...sorta like a public toilet, dont ja know...

Yes it is....:rotf:

[Bruce Day]

Ed, there were two issues raised that TPS fills in; the forend loop for beavertail forends and the serial number markings on the forend. I am a long way from being a Parker expert, yet TPS enables me to sometimes sound like I know what I am talking about.

On the SN, you purposefully did not disclose the entire SN for some reason. There were unfinished guns left over at the close of Ilion production and there is a list of those guns. They were finished by others, often Lefever. Those guns often had features that did not comply with the Parker norm.

By going to the internet, you ask people who hang around here and some who may answer. A few may be experts, but many have opinions. Few knowledgeable people give definite opinions without having a gun in hand. Some of the most competant Parker people I know make it a practice to never respond here.

[ed good]

we were havin such a good time here...talkin bout gun refinishin. whats right and whats not right. skeet shootin and other such magic things...an now...oh oh! sounds like the water is swirling and we are headin down the crapper...time to wipe and move on.

thanks to all for your positive input and the valuable information you provided re this particular parker skeet gun.

[Bruce Day]

...time to wipe and move on.




Ed, you are absolutely right.

[ed good]

bruce: just so we understand each other...i respect the book. it is the best of its kind ever written. but being print media, it is frozen in time and is therefore limited. it can only be added to if revised. whereas, the internet is almost like a living thing. it's knowledge base is ever expanding. and i must confess, i am lazy and seek the path of least resistance. it is so much quicker to find info on web sites or in this case access the server brains of other knowledgeable parker aficionados who frequent this and other forums...and thanks again for your input and gentlemanly response to my question regarding the likelyhood that this fine gun has been restocked. ed....flush....

[Eric Eis]

"bruce: just so we understand each other...i respect the book. it is the best of its kind ever written"

So read the book......:banghead: Then talk...

[Bill Murphy]

Ed, the Parker beavertail sub rib from the barrel flats to the forend lug should look like the same area of the Belgian barrels if it is original. I am guessing it is an original beavertail gun if it is, in fact, a skeet gun. The option code in the Serialization Book means nothing.

[ed good]

so eric...please do reread the full post, particularly the parts about frozen print media, the internet being an ever expanding knowledge base and of course accessing the server brains of other parker enthusiast...kinda catchy phraseology dont you think?

and can someone else please deal with this chronic malcontent?...i do not have the patience. plus, i gotta go...take care of business that is...

mike, are you watchin?...maybe you an eric can have a go while i am busy selling.

catch up with you later...

[ed good]

bill: i think i understand what you are talking about. but, i do not have the time right now to spend on it. hopefully, the factory letter will tell all. meantime, thanks for your input.

bill: just got back from picking up a small collection of hunting grade double guns to sell. no parkers, but some interesting guns, none the less... anyway, i will be taking pictures soon and i will take a picture of the forend hook on the 26" vhe barrels and post it here. thanks again. ed

[Bill Murphy]

Don't expect too much from a 240,000 range factory letter. The IBM card is the only research vehicle and they don't usually include much information. There are exceptions, however. We'll be looking for those pictures.

[ed good]

punch cards in 1938? how cool was that?

[Rick Losey]

punch cards in 1938? how cool was that?

the 1880 census took seven years to compile, there was a good chance the 1890 would not be done before the 1900 started, to speed it up, the punch card concept (originally for programming looms) was proposed by Hermann Hollerith, this kicked off the Tabulating Machine Company which became IBM about 20 years later.

odd fact -- the size of the card had to be comfortable to handle - so it was matched to the old greenback paper money

[ed good]

oh: interesting history.

do you recall if the coding system used for these early cards was based on an 8 bit word or something else?

[Bill Murphy]

The late Remington Parker cards were not punched with data on the gun in question. All data was hand written. They were used because they were there. We found them in shoe boxes where they probably still reside.

[Rick Losey]

oh: interesting history.

do you recall if the coding system used for these early cards was based on an 8 bit word or something else?

it was called (wonder how they came up with this) the Hollerith code :rotf:

a series of zone and digits - the top three rows of the card were the zones,

the next nine where the digits - so - first zone & first digit was the letter A , zone 1 digit 2 a B and so on.

there were 80 columns in a card

digits only were numbers - odd combinations where special charaters, this code was later able to be translated simply into hexidecimal for the 16 base code in electronic computers.

any more detail that that and most folks will glaze over just before their foreheads hit the key board :rotf:

[Linn Matthews]

Hollerith was the guy that came up with the idea

[Rick Losey]

Hollerith was the guy that came up with the idea

yes he was - did you see post #35? :whistle:

[Linn Matthews]

Missed that one, sorry!

[ed good]

did a google search for hollerith. came up with herman. he is the guy who started it all. and look where we are now...truly amazing...take a look.

[Steve McCarty]

Looks like a replacement or a special order. I wonder if a PGCA letter would yield any clues?

I agree. That beaver tail forarm looks like one on one of my guns and I'm sure that one is a replacement put on by Parker. That fine checkering is very Parkerish.

This looks like a great gun to me!

[ed good]

here is a picture of the forend hook on the parker barrels. to me it looks the same as the forend hook on the extra set of belgian barrels that came with this fine gun.

[Dave Suponski]

Ed, That is the correct forend loop for a beavertail equipped gun.

[ed good]

research letter came today...

it does not address the stock nor forend configuration.

so, the mystery continues...

[George M. Purtill]

Wow- that is fast service.
Lets see what it says. If its IBM card only it will be very brief.

[Bill Murphy]

Yeah, Ed, tell us what the letter says.