Model 12 winchester 16 ga.

[wayne goerres]

Have a chance to purchase a model 12 winchester 16 ga. Gun has been reblued ( hot blued ). The blueing at the muzzel has been damaged but the rest of the blueing looks nice. The but stock may be a replacement. Nice peace of wood but the finish dos'nt look correct. Price is 400.00. What do you think. Sorry I do not have pictures. Gun appears to be tight and functions fine.

[John Campbell]

Why would a non-member ask this question about a pump gun on the Parker Assn. forum regarding "other fine doubles." Or am I missing something?

Kensal

[Andros Theophanous]

O' relax. Wayne this is a good question as long as the question has to do with classic guns in my book. The price sounds right wayne, if you are looking for a shooter i would reccomend buying the gun. It would make a great field gun, one question Wayne is it a takedown?

[Bill Zachow]

It would have to be a takedown as only 12s were made as non takedown (model 25s). Actually, the price is a bit high for a reblued 12. Up here in New York, you can find original, unrefinished 16 gauge guns for $300 to $350. These would be about 80 to 90percent guns.

[wayne goerres]

The reason I asked this question on this forum was because vintage winchesters and ithica pumps often come up on this forum. Sorry' I did not intend to insault some PGCA members.

[Andy Kelley]

Wayne I would agree with Bill....if you are close to new York you should try the Syracuse gun show which is this coming weekend.The show is quite large and you would have several model 12's in 16 ga. to choose from.

[Ed Blake]

Bill Z is right. There are plenty of original condition guns out there in much better shape than that one. Don't waste your time or money.

[Bill Davis]

The gun as you describe it is worth $250 tops!! Keep looking.....

[wayne goerres]

I passed on the gun. The only reason it caught my eyes was because it is a 16 ga. Unfortunatly I live in Alabama. I would be unable to make any east coast gun shows. The shows in this state are pretty small and the dealers think that their junk is gold. I would prefure a double anyway.

[Steve Huffman]

I have always had trouble getting rid of a 16 model 12 dont know why but thats life !

[Andy Kelley]

Wayne they used to have a few good shows in Birmingham you might want to check out.Good luck with your quest ...I had a model12 in 16ga with 26 in.barrels...it was a grouse meat gun.

[Eric Grims]

Just had an auction here in Vermont and they had a slew of model 12s going quick to dealers in the $400 range. There are many 16s out there and you can have fun looking for a real good one at a good price. A very many of them are full choke.
Model 12 in 16 ga is a very sweet gun - and earns the title "The Perfect Repeater". The hand polishing throughout production really shows.
Passed on the family 16 to a nephew last month and will replace it soon. Have them in 12 and 20 ga. And the .410 (mod. 42) is the cats meow - earning the title "America's Sweetheart".
Good hunting.

[wayne goerres]

I have not made a birmingham show yet. I am quite a bit south of them but I have been planning on checking them out. May be something in Montgomery. I am all the way on the south east side of al. close to columbus Goerga. The gun shows in columbus suck. Most of the dealers start way on the high side and don't even bother to negociate untill after they have had the gun for about a year. Their shows are nothing like the shows in louisville Ky or Portland Or.

[Mills Morrison]

I recently bought a Model 12 16 for $300. It was well used with no bluing remaining. I figure it was worth $300 to have a classic American shotgun in my collection . . . and in 16 gauge. Have still not shot it and plan on going to the clay range yet again this weekend with a Parker

[Dave Suponski]

Picked up a wonderful Model 12 16 gauge from a well respected PGCA member this year at the Southern. I needed one to go along with the 12 gauge. Now I need a 20....Damn this stuff never ends......:rolleyes:

For all you collectors remember the operative word here is "Need".....

[Daryl Corona]

I was wondering when you were going to chime in. "Well respected"? I would'nt go that far, but thanks anyway. You ready to sell it back yet?

[Dave Suponski]

Ahhhh...Let me think about it..................Well I thought about it..........Nope

[wayne goerres]

If you run out of model 12s to collect you could start on model 97s. There only made in 12s and 20s. There is no sond as soothinf as racking the slide on a 97. ( or terifying for that matter).

[Bill Davis]

Model 97's were made in 12 and 16 gauge. No 20's--although a few 20 ga. conversions are around. They are not factory guns!

[wayne goerres]

My apologies.You are correct. I let my fingers get ahead of my brain.

[Peter Clark]

I traded off 4 M-12s (2 in 12 , a 20 and a 16) plus a M-42, a 62 A and a 61 to acquire the 32" DHE I showed awhile back. Those winchesters are great but I like the 32" Parker better and feel good about the exchange. I kept my M-12 trap just to have one and my son has a 16ga M-12 so we're still covered.
-plc-

[Steve McCarty]

It would have to be a takedown as only 12s were made as non takedown (model 25s). Actually, the price is a bit high for a reblued 12. Up here in New York, you can find original, unrefinished 16 gauge guns for $300 to $350. These would be about 80 to 90percent guns.

I agree; too pricey. I paid $225 two years ago in a pawn shop for a 16 Model 12 with a replacement magazine. Very little finish on the receiver, full choke and a barrell that reaches way out there! Has an old recoil pad. Great bore and the gun works like new. So it's okay.

I just purchased a like new model 12, 1962 12 gauge modified for $465. That guns looks like it just came off of the showroom floor. Smooth as glass without a mark on it, original butt plate. I haven't even shot it yet! However, I bought that gun from Nosler and they aren't a shotgun place and they sort of dumped it. Someone had traded it in on a rifle.

My favorite one is a Nickle Steel 12 that has nearly turned silver. A 1923 gun. Here it is: http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/P1010576.jpg

I paid under $300 for this shotgun.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/P1010577.jpg

Pretty nearly worn silver. This gun was two years old when my father was born. I like old "I've been there" guns. Sometimes you have to spend some $ on them. I had some work done on this, but it is wonderful today.

[Steve McCarty]

I traded off 4 M-12s (2 in 12 , a 20 and a 16) plus a M-42, a 62 A and a 61 to acquire the 32" DHE I showed awhile back. Those winchesters are great but I like the 32" Parker better and feel good about the exchange. I kept my M-12 trap just to have one and my son has a 16ga M-12 so we're still covered.
-plc-

Yep sounds like you are covered.

I like Model 12s because they are all steel and if all of the springs and bits inside are okay they work well. I own several modern shotguns that have alloy receivers, a Browning Gold Fusion and Win Model 59 (not all that modern) and like them for field work, but when shooting clays, skeet, trap I find a heavier steel gun balances better and is not as whippy.

I think pumps may come back. When autos became reliable (even tho my Model 11 works very well) they pretty much replaced pumps. But pumps are neat.

[Dave Suponski]

A friend once described shooting a Model 12 is like driving a standard shift. So when I feel like driving a stick shift I use a Model 12.....:rotf:

[Steve McCarty]

I want to say something about the price of guns and if you are afraid to pay too much. All of us have passed up on guns that we wanted because we thought they were too expensive, and then changed our mind about about 2am, and went back the next day to buy it, and it was gone.

I've done this many times. I have even returned guns the next day because I thought that they were "wrong" and then, after I turned them back, I found out that they were right, but not in my safe anymore.

So, if you are buying guns and you see one that makes you sweat, then buy the darn thing. Even if you pay too much, you still have the gun and as the years pass you will forget what you paid and enjoy it.

I hate to list all of the really great deals that I have passed on....really, really, great deals. That "Do you really need another" look from my wife is a killer too. We are not rich and guns are expensive.

Today I have a collection that gives me literally thousands of hours of joy. So I'm happy I bought what I did. I just wish that I had not turned back in that Colt SAA 1902 second model, in 38 Special, nickle plated in perfect condition with ill fitting stocks! I thought it was wrong...cost was $800. It was a steal, it locked up like new, mint bore.....I let it go. Sorry, I need a drink.

[Mills Morrison]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Now, what do you do when there are about 3 you really want? :rolleyes:

[Steve McCarty]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Now, what do you do when there are about 3 you really want? :rolleyes:

Well, I'll tell you. Sometimes I buy more than one at a time, but if I can only afford one I usually select the one in the best condition. However if one is in rough condition but has nice engraving, etc, I will buy it and figure I'll fix it up in a next life.

If I have to buy all three, I have taken out a loan, but I seldom do that anymore. I don't do that anymore.

Here is another plan. Lay out all three guns, if you can. Decide which one you can live without. That leaves you with two. Then flip a coin.

[Mills Morrison]

That is a good idea. My wife bought me a Parker Trojan 20 for a wedding present and there was a 16 gauge Trojan available at the same time from the same seller who we sort of knew. I am certainly not complaining and feel very fortunate to have the one . . . but it would have been nice to somehow have bought the other one. The good news is I discovered a friend bought the 16 gauge and have right of first refusal. It is always the ones you don't get that you regret

[Steve McCarty]

That is a good idea. My wife bought me a Parker Trojan 20 for a wedding present and there was a 16 gauge Trojan available at the same time from the same seller who we sort of knew. I am certainly not complaining and feel very fortunate to have the one . . . but it would have been nice to somehow have bought the other one. The good news is I discovered a friend bought the 16 gauge and have right of first refusal. It is always the ones you don't get that you regret

And you know what? That pain of regret lingers. Years after you pass one up you will be at a gunshow and see one like it for three times as much and you will say to yourself, "Damn I had one like that in my hands ten years ago and passed it up!" I will hurt. The hurt that keeps on giving...or am I being crazy? :crying:

[Mills Morrison]

You are right about that

[Mark Ouellette]

Dave M. schooled me on buying Parkers...

"You never pay too much for a Parker, you only buy it (at that price) a little too soon." So far he was correct in this logic.

[Peter Clark]

Yep sounds like you are covered.

I like Model 12s because they are all steel and if all of the springs and bits inside are okay they work well. I own several modern shotguns that have alloy receivers, a Browning Gold Fusion and Win Model 59 (not all that modern) and like them for field work, but when shooting clays, skeet, trap I find a heavier steel gun balances better and is not as whippy.

I think pumps may come back. When autos became reliable (even tho my Model 11 works very well) they pretty much replaced pumps. But pumps are neat.

If they do I also hung on to my 870s, a 12, 28 and .410, all of which I bought new. The 12 is an SC skeet gun I ordered with and extra modified barrel back in 1970 or 71. For years it was the only thing I shot. I will likely never equal the 15 doves I killed with 16 shots with the skeet barrel on back in the 80's. I may get it out this year for old times sake! Like M12's and Timex watches, they take a licking and keep on ticking.

[Steve McCarty]

If they do I also hung on to my 870s, a 12, 28 and .410, all of which I bought new. The 12 is an SC skeet gun I ordered with and extra modified barrel back in 1970 or 71. For years it was the only thing I shot. I will likely never equal the 15 doves I killed with 16 shots with the skeet barrel on back in the 80's. I may get it out this year for old times sake! Like M12's and Timex watches, they take a licking and keep on ticking.

Yep. Great story.

One of my great uncles was a championship shooter. I never knew the gent, but my dad used to hunt with him. Before they went out the old man would ask, "What's the limit?" If it was sixteen, he would slip sixteen shells into the loops of his vest. Cool eh? That's confidence, man. I don't know what kind of gun he shot. I have seen one picture of him taken in the early 30's. I cannot recall if he had a gun in his hands or not, but he is smiling and wearing a canvas shooting jacket.

A coupla months ago I bought a brand new 20 gauge 870 Wingmaster. I cannot recall when I last bought a new shotgun...oh yes I do, it was in 1978. A winchester model 1300 12 gauge. I still have it.

[Steve McCarty]

Just had an auction here in Vermont and they had a slew of model 12s going quick to dealers in the $400 range. There are many 16s out there and you can have fun looking for a real good one at a good price. A very many of them are full choke.
Model 12 in 16 ga is a very sweet gun - and earns the title "The Perfect Repeater". The hand polishing throughout production really shows.
Passed on the family 16 to a nephew last month and will replace it soon. Have them in 12 and 20 ga. And the .410 (mod. 42) is the cats meow - earning the title "America's Sweetheart".
Good hunting.

You hit the nail on the head about the advantage of the 16. It is it's weight and balance. The frames on my model 12 and 37 16s are just a tad smaller/lighter than in the 12 gauge and they do seem faster. BTW when I compare the two 16s the model 12 and 37 I tend to the 37 which is a modified. If you don't want to shoot a double at upland game, the Ithaca 37 in 16 gauge with a modified tube IMHO just can't be beat.

[Jay Gardner]

My bags are packed for the weekend and I'm taking two guns: 16 ga VH and a 16 ga M12. 16 ga M12's are classic guns by any standard and I am looking forward to shucking more than a few shells.

[Steve McCarty]

My bags are packed for the weekend and I'm taking two guns: 16 ga VH and a 16 ga M12. 16 ga M12's are classic guns by any standard and I am looking forward to shucking more than a few shells.

Have a great hunt! It is hard to find a place to hunt upland birds here, most of the stuff I shoot explode in the air.

Here is my very plain jane Model 12, 16 gauge gun. She's a 1937 issue and has seen hard use. Another pawn shop find and she cost just over $200 and that is about what she is worth, but she works just fine and I don't have to fret about getting scratches on her.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/001.jpg

[Mills Morrison]

Nice one. A dead ringer for my 16 gauge Model 12, except mine is more worn

[Steve McCarty]

When I get a new/old gun such as this Model 12 I taken them down and clean and oil the guts. Model 12s don't come apart or go back together easily, but this one was a real mess inside and I'm glad I took the effort to give her a good bath. They are made like a swiss watch and unlock thru recoil just before you pump. Lots of machining and interesting to work on. The Winchester Model 12 shotgun really is "a piece of work".

[Steve McCarty]

Someone installed a new magazine in my 16 gauge model 12. When they put the gun back together they installed the wrong follower, which meant it was impossible to load the magazine. I looked up what one of those replacement magazines cost and it was $200! It has kind of a flat black frosted blue/black finish and doesn't fit all that well, which makes the gun a hassle to take down. So I had some gunsmithing expenses.

The 16 is much lighter than the 12 and a bit smaller. It feels more like a 20 than a 12 and since I shoot 1 oz loads at skeet/clays/trap when using a 12, and the same in the 16, it is very nice. Shoots like a 12 and feels like a 20.

I hope the 16 doesn't die.

[Steve McCarty]

For the interest of the board here are some comparisons between a 12 and 16 gauge Model 12. Neither deserve to be in the "fine doubles" section, but since we are talking Model 12s here goes.

The 16 is a 1937 gun and the 12 a Nickle Steel 1923 gun. It is easy to see how much smaller the 16 is and it feels about two pounds lighter.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/002-1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/006.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/003.jpg

[Andy Kelley]

Steve thanks for the photos..I love model 12's and the more worn the better...this gun was a real hunters tool .

[charlie cleveland]

i saw a really nice model 12 a 20 ga today...price was 900a little to much probably but gun looked like new and no refinish that i could tell.if i woulda had a spare of 900 she woulda been mine.... charlie

[Eric Grims]

I have a very sweet field grade 20 ga. No rib and I am definitely better shooting off the pipe than with a rib for sporting clays and for game with the pumps.

Also I am looking for a butt stock for a nickle steel 12 gauge that was my grandfathers gun. The gun is so well broken in that you just say "open" and the slide releases to the load/eject position.

[Dennis V. Nix]

I have a Winchester Model 12 in 20 gauge that I bought for my son after he was born in 1971. I sent it to Simmons to have a vent rib installed and then put it in a corner for when he was old enough to use it. He shot it a few times and loved it but then passed away when he was 24. I still have it but don't use it as much as I should. Maybe with all of this talk about the Winchester Model 12 I will get it out and use it for quail a few times this year.

[Jay Gardner]

Late Saturday afternoon I pulled out my M12 and off we went. No birds pointed or flushed so I didn't get to shoot it but just carrying it felt very right. Certainly not like carrying a well balanced double, but very pleasurable in it's on special way.

When I was turning 13 I spotted a 16 ga M12 in the rack of the local sporting good store and I begged my dad to get it for me for my birthday. He didn't get it for me but he did give me a 20 ga Wingmaster for Christmas that year. (he thought the 16 might be a little much for a first shotgun) I have loved and cherished that Wingmaster for 40-years but that 16 ga M12 haunted me for years. A few years ago I had a chance to pick one up and I didn't hesitate. I just wish I took it out more often.

[Eric Grims]

I have a Winchester Model 12 in 20 gauge that I bought for my son after he was born in 1971. I sent it to Simmons to have a vent rib installed and then put it in a corner for when he was old enough to use it. He shot it a few times and loved it but then passed away when he was 24. I still have it but don't use it as much as I should. Maybe with all of this talk about the Winchester Model 12 I will get it out and use it for quail a few times this year.

Boy that was the thing a while back to buy a new gun and send it right off to Simmons. I have a 1940s 12 gauge full choke with a Simmons rib that is definitely my go to trap gun. I guess it shoots about 70/30 high and I love to float the birds on it . There is also something about it that I think just smashes clay birds.
The factory ribs are nice too. To verify factory one will see the proof mark offset to the left side near the choke roll mark because the factory rib sits where the mark normall is.

[Steve McCarty]

i saw a really nice model 12 a 20 ga today...price was 900a little to much probably but gun looked like new and no refinish that i could tell.if i woulda had a spare of 900 she woulda been mine.... charlie

Yep, $900 is a little dear for a 20 gauge model 12, but a new Ithaca in 20 gauge I think costs around there. I just bought a bran new Wingmaster in 20 for $600. I saw a few nice 20's in Guns International yesterday for something like $500, but that ain't hay either.

I have a pretty nice 20 model 12, but it's got one of those Power Packs on it and I'm wondering if it would pass a plastic wad on threw. There is about a one inch gap between the muzzle and the base of the choke tube. It needs a good cleaning inside because she hesitates when I jack the action after a shot. I don't know if I'm up to stripping down another model 12 right now. I think I paid $625 for it 15 years ago....way too much, but that is the story of my life.

I'll have to break out my 20 gauge and take a pic of it along side the 12 and 16. A Model 12 20, is a fast little gun, but so is the Wingmaster and it is a much simplier gun.

[Steve McCarty]

Late Saturday afternoon I pulled out my M12 and off we went. No birds pointed or flushed so I didn't get to shoot it but just carrying it felt very right. Certainly not like carrying a well balanced double, but very pleasurable in it's on special way.

When I was turning 13 I spotted a 16 ga M12 in the rack of the local sporting good store and I begged my dad to get it for me for my birthday. He didn't get it for me but he did give me a 20 ga Wingmaster for Christmas that year. (he thought the 16 might be a little much for a first shotgun) I have loved and cherished that Wingmaster for 40-years but that 16 ga M12 haunted me for years. A few years ago I had a chance to pick one up and I didn't hesitate. I just wish I took it out more often.

Me Too!

Around here the clays, trap and skeet shooting is fantastic, with several nice clubs nearby. A great sporting clays range that the require that you rent a golf cart. The only hunting that I can find is off in Condon, OR and it costs thousands and thousands of dollars to shoot there...like $4000 for two days and three nites. So that's out.

Where I grew up we just drove out into the country and shot pheasants from within the brambles alongside the road, we'd get our limit. Stop the car and walk up, guns at high port. Bird flushes BANG got'em. No dog. We let hens go. All wild birds too and tough, you had to hit them hard with 5s or 6s. Tail feathers nearly as long as your arm.

[Steve McCarty]

Boy that was the thing a while back to buy a new gun and send it right off to Simmons. I have a 1940s 12 gauge full choke with a Simmons rib that is definitely my go to trap gun. I guess it shoots about 70/30 high and I love to float the birds on it . There is also something about it that I think just smashes clay birds.
The factory ribs are nice too. To verify factory one will see the proof mark offset to the left side near the choke roll mark because the factory rib sits where the mark normall is.

I attended college in Emporia, KS and Simmons wasn't too far away. I'd drive there and oogle the Brownings and new Model 12s. I lusted after a Superpose with a full set of matched barrels. In those days, the early 60s I think they cost $600 with case. WAY out of my range.

[Steve McCarty]

Boy that was the thing a while back to buy a new gun and send it right off to Simmons. I have a 1940s 12 gauge full choke with a Simmons rib that is definitely my go to trap gun. I guess it shoots about 70/30 high and I love to float the birds on it . There is also something about it that I think just smashes clay birds.
The factory ribs are nice too. To verify factory one will see the proof mark offset to the left side near the choke roll mark because the factory rib sits where the mark normall is.

My 12 has a clean barrel and about a 1/2" cast off so my eye lines perfectly up with the tube. It'd be a great trap gun, I think. Trouble is I also have a SBC and which girl do you want to dance with?

[charlie cleveland]

i love to hear about these old guns...ive got a model 12 12 ga thats got a cutts full choke on it...makes the gun look ugly but will put a lot of holes in a tin can or should i say aluminum can...these model 12 s sure handle good..would like to get a old 20 ga some day... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

Steve thanks for the photos..I love model 12's and the more worn the better...this gun was a real hunters tool .

Yeah, isn't that funny? I used to buy only pristine, like new guns; and that's fine, but today honest wear sings to me. Good guns hold up, even after hard use. I'd like to find a worn slick Remington 31, or one of those early Marlin pumps....they are something like 1900 guns. Model 43? Can't recall.

I agree, a worn smooth, silver, ancient shotgun is fun to own and cheap, usually, to buy. So you win both ways.

My GH is worn, no finish and checkering smooth. Good bore though, no cracks and she is a great shooter. Perfect.

[Steve McCarty]

i love to hear about these old guns...ive got a model 12 12 ga thats got a cutts full choke on it...makes the gun look ugly but will put a lot of holes in a tin can or should i say aluminum can...these model 12 s sure handle good..would like to get a old 20 ga some day... charlie

I recall a Model 12, 12 ga that I saw at a gun show once. It was in fine condition, but had that Cutts out there and the barrel was short. So no one paid any attention to the gun, but I should have bought it. It was under $200. IMO the Cutts isn't so bad. Pretty ugly tho! LOL So you shoot it when no one is watching.

[charlie cleveland]

steve its funny you mentioning the old model 12 with the cutts on it i was just looking at it today...it was still ugly...but as you said i shoot it when aint nobody lookin and dont tell nobody...the model 12 is surely a fine gun... heh and i found the old humpback 20 ga pump gona try it out on crows soon..i can quit blamin my grandson now for gettin it... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

steve its funny you mentioning the old model 12 with the cutts on it i was just looking at it today...it was still ugly...but as you said i shoot it when aint nobody lookin and dont tell nobody...the model 12 is surely a fine gun... heh and i found the old humpback 20 ga pump gona try it out on crows soon..i can quit blamin my grandson now for gettin it... charlie

If it quits raining I'm on the trap range tomorrow morning. I am going to shoot a 1955 well worn Superposed that I bought a decade ago. Have yet to shoot it and it is well beat up. I paid way too much for it and just looking at it makes me mad. My fault, of course. No one forced me to buy the gun and I wanted a Superposed. Always have.

However, it is a long tang 3" gun with the original butt pad. Has 30 inch barrels F&M. The gun is worn white at the balance where everyone holds a Superposed and when I flip the lever she drops right open, all the way. So the gun is well used. I don't know what the chokes measure now. Does heavy shooting open them up? Seems logical to me. I'll try the open barrel first on trap and she how she works. Just for grins, I'll shoot it with Fiocchi spreaders at skeet.

The gun seems to fit me pretty well and it has a kinda high comb. Single bead. Solid rib. LOP feels right. My eye lines up a bit high, so I look down the rib, so she should shoot a tad high. I like that.

I have not taken a picture of it, or I'd post it. I'll do it tomorrow.

Some people avoid the Superposed because they are heavy and indeed they are heavy. They are also complex with a very interesting break down feature. The barrel slides off forward along with its forearm. Different.

When I was a kid I used to drool over Sterlingworths and never thought that I'd ever own one. Now I do, but she is far from fine. I wonder how she'll shoot?

[Steve McCarty]

steve its funny you mentioning the old model 12 with the cutts on it i was just looking at it today...it was still ugly...but as you said i shoot it when aint nobody lookin and dont tell nobody...the model 12 is surely a fine gun... heh and i found the old humpback 20 ga pump gona try it out on crows soon..i can quit blamin my grandson now for gettin it... charlie

Great Charlie! Tell us how that old 20 ga humpback shoots.