New Forum Idea - "Appraise My Gun"

[Pete Lester]

After reading the 12ga DHE value thread I thought the PGCA website might be a good place for people to get candid opinions on valuation of their Parker guns??? It could be a member only forum to encourage people to join for the benefit of getting an appraisal. The benefit to those who participate, you get to look at pictures of Parkers. Perhaps there could be a sticky that explains what we need to know, and sample pictures of what we want to see. I thought I would float the idea and see what happens. Maybe it could work, potential pitfalls???

[John Dunkle]

Could work Mr. J.B...! Nice idea! I'll let the others pipe in with their thoughts as well...??

Best to you!

John

[Bill Murphy]

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[Brian Dudley]

Not a bad idea, however something like that could be a slippery slope. ut I think there is enough knowledge here to be able to assign accurate numbers to guns if proper informaiton and photos are supplied.

Besides, it is people like us that are the ones buying these guns.

However, I would not be surprised if insurance companies started getting copies of forum threads sent to them in place of formal appraisals. lol.

[Daryl Corona]

I like it Pete!

[wayne goerres]

I like your idea. UNfortunatly there will be some feathers rubed the wrong way. You will have people that think there gun is worth way more than it was appraised for. I do think it would be of great value to most of the members of this forum but it may cause a few spats,and some people are pretty trickey with a camera.

[Pete Lester]

Brian, could you expand on the slippery slope thought? The first pitfall I can think of is someone who believes there gun is worth more than it's appraisal here on the forums, or worse, they paid more than the appraisal range and they are insulted. However how is that different than the value of real estate?

I don't think every gun presented would necessarily be for sale or will be insured, I think there is a curiosity factor many. I think even a few of us might be curious what others think of various guns, maybe even a few of our own. I am sure we would end up looking at both very nice guns and not so nice guns, but Parkers are Parkers. People can go to the Blue Book and get ideas of value, why not here too, I think we could do a better job than the book.? Seems like it could be a nice service that might help a few people.

[Mike.Smith]

I think with a proper description of what the forum is and what it isn't, it could work. Start with a few words of warning as to what people can expect when they post their gun (in other words, expect an honest answer and be prepared not to agree with everyone) and it should be fine. As for the pictures, I wouldn't worry about people being "tricky", I'd worry about people knowing the front of the camera from the back. Good clear, bright pictures will be critical. Afterall, if they want to get tricky with the photos, they are only hurting themselves. I think to avoid a lot of unnecessary back and forth, there should be some minimum required shots of specific areas of the gun in order for everyone to make a good assessment.

Mike

[George M. Purtill]

If I was PGCA's lawyer, I would say that at a minimum it should be confined to members only.

[Tom Will]

For lack of better term, Disclamers like, This does not assume safety of the firearm, can't measure/be sure of barrel thickness, can't tell if on/off face, can't measure choke, is it factory installed or repaired, all effecting value considerably. This is not an in hand appraisal for resale value only an educated opinion from pictures posted. Things like that.
I like the idea, I think it would be a popular thread. I know I would read it- although I think I read every thread on here now

[Dave Suponski]

A few things to consider here. We will be at the mercy of the quality of the posters picture taking ability. What we will be able to offer is an opinion based on these pictures. How many times have we looked at a gun the second time and noticed something we didn't see the first time? A small crack or bulge or whatever and these problems would have a huge effect on value. How many times have you had a conversation with a fellow PGCA member about the value of a particular gun and found that the both of you were miles apart?

What I think I am trying to say here is that I don't believe there is an accurate way to value a gun by pictures on the internet. The gun must be in hand. I like many of us have bought guns on the net only to send them back after a close inspection.

Not trying to be a spoil sport here just interjecting my concerns. Someone said "A slippery slope" I would have to agree. One of our primary purposes is to educate visitors about our beloved Parker Gun not dissapoint them.

Personally I will not value a gun posted here for numerous reasons.The main reason is I don't think I'm qualified.

[wayne goerres]

I don't agree with the for members only. People join your forum because they like the information they recieve and the help they get from other members, weather they are forum members or PGCA members. I am just a member for now but Brian Dudly helped me out whan I bought my 10ga and that will probable be the reason I become a PGCA member. What I meant about the camera was that you can take a picture of a stock and not show a hairline crack or take a picture of the inside of the bore and it will show up bright and shinny but the last inch of the muzzle will be pitted. These are some of the reasons no gun dealer will tell you what your gun is worth. Just my HMO.

[wayne goerres]

Sorry I cut my self short on my last comment. Meant to say no gun dealer will appraise your gun without having it in hand.

[Robin Lewis]

What Mr. Suponski said.

[TroyMoritz]

Alright, I'll bite the worm. I'm a new member here and I really respect the Parker fans, I'm just not a big American gun fan myself. (If I were, it'd be Parkers and Fox)

I'm an English gun fanatic and traded off one of my guns. The buyer fell short of cash he needed to make the deal so I took a Parker in partial trade.

Soooo, what's the gun worth? It's a 1906 era Parker VH with perfect bores and great wall thickness all around. 12 bore, 2.75" chambers. .042" heavy choke in both bores. .027" bore diameter in both. The gun is as new and was purportedly fully restored by Delgrego. Full, perfect case colors (correct look), all metal is perfect. Screws are timed. 30" barrels, #2 frame. Clearly a fowling gun if there ever was one. Pistol grip.

The wood has been restored and gets an B+/A- grade. Crisp checkering. Ugly pachmyer recoil pad should probably go away. Other than that, gun is in 98% condition.

What price do I value the gun at for insurance, and in this economy, what price do I ask to sell such a gun within 30 days? (reasonably motivated sale)

Thanks for the education!

Regards,

D. Troy Moritz
Dtroymoritz@gmail.com

[Dean Romig]

Not sure I can see any benefit when balanced with potential negatives.

Probably requires a lot more thought...

Too many opinions and egos = lots of ruffled feathers.

[Bobby Cash]

Isn't this like asking the fat kid to watch the cake?
Although these appraisals aren't binding, as the owners of similar firearms, many of which are or soon may be for sale (I've seen pictures of you guys), won't wishful thinking tend to skew objectivity?

That being said, I do enjoy the posted pictures and the opportunity to see others' Parkers.
Please keep 'em coming.

[Steve Huffman]

A gun or anything is worth what someone will pay. Some will pay more because they have more ,some will pay more because their rival is there. Eveyone has the right to or at least we used to ! speak their thoughts . I dont think this is a good idea . We could vote on it.

[Pete Lester]

The reason I suggested it be done in a members only forum is to prevent the clever troll who is actually looking to sell a gun disguised manner in an "open" forum area.

As far as safety concerns, check the recent threads on barrel wall thickness, when we discuss that issue we are sometimes giving recomendations a gun is shootable. Same with composite barrel considerations, many us say it's OK. What new safety area could be be covering that we don't already.

Perhaps the appraisal could be done as a poll, with members voting on what they feel the appropriate range of value is, perhaps broad, <$1000, then in $500 increments and for the most valuable guns simply >$10,000,with the idea that a gun above this range really should have a formal in hand appraisal done.

[calvin humburg]

I think it's a capital Idea and I like to look at pictures. But they tell me if I leave a ladder leaning on my house and some idiot climbs up and falls off and gets hurt he can sue me. O by the way if that happens to me please pray 4 me. best ch

could it work with a disclamer? I wish it could work it would be an interesting thread to check and watch....

[Lloyd Bernstein]

Maybe we should refer to it as a "Collective Opinion" of value?

[Mark Ouellette]

I like the idea but wait till we see a lemon at Gun Broker:

"Appraised at $xxxx by the Parker Gun Collector's Association"

Just my thoughts...

[Brian Dudley]

I mentioned slippery slope because of the many possible issues listed by several members posting on this thread. It is a great idea to have this be an option, however if implemented, it just need to be well thought through and managed.

We all know that the first thing in determining a guns value is condition and originality. We often tiff about originality here and condition can be difficult to show with pictures. Things can look better than they are or worse than they are in pics.

Also, maybe a prerequisite for asking for a value in this possible new forum is that a letter needs to be gotten first (if available). That way basic truths about the gun can be confirmed up front.

[charlie cleveland]

a nice or collector gun is really hard to put a true value on...espisally in the eyes of someone like me...but a shooter or general run of the mill gun is easy enough to put a value on in just a jiffy...remember thegood gun tradders we use to go and trade with often it did not take them but a secound to tell them what a guns general value was andwhat they would allow you on it for a trade in... i think theirs plenty of savy in you bunch of guys to tell me what my old shooters are worth...i think this a good and interesting idea.thanks pete for bringing it up... charlie

[Bruce Day]

I don't know how anybody knows what a gun is worth. The most I know in some situations is how much similar guns have sold for in the past. To even give that statement, a person needs to keep current on sales prices , sales prices , not asking prices, and people are reticent to disclose how much they actually paid or got.

We have had situations where a person will listen to somebody here giving an uninformed opinion and then believing that. In one instance, a person got an off the cuff statement from a person who had not ever bought an expensive gun that his gun was worth about $100,000, so that's what he thought. He tried to peddle the gun unsuccessfully for a year and accused potential buyers of trying to lowball him before he finally sold it for $45,000, which is close to where it should have been at the start. That casual and wrong opinion of value cost the owner a year and resulted in many hard feelings.

We have had numerous warnings on the forum and in the Parker Pages about not judging a gun unless it is held in the hand. Some you can tell quickly, but others you need the gun in hand.

You know we have one of our most esteemed members, Bill Mullins, who is the Parker values editor for the Fjestad Blue Book of Gun Values. He follows current sales and provides a range of expected values. Condition is commonly overstated in Parkers, but I believe that if a person is realistic about condition, the Blue Book will be the best source for expected sales prices. I don't get it why a person who wants to have an idea about how much his gun might sell for can't check in the Fjestad Blue Book.

[Bill Murphy]

Without measurements and documentation of originality, a $10,000 gun could be worth $2,000 as a parts gun. I think it would be a great idea on another forum, just for fun of course. Why don't we try it on the shotgunworld.com "Classic shotguns" subforum. Someone post a picture of a gun not for sale and invite appraisals and criticisms.

[Paul Plager]

I think Pete has a good idea. I also agree that it should be a Members only thread. Most of us will realise that the estimated value is an educated guess at best as values are subject to market fluctuations and also what a gun is worth is not what we are willing to pay....gun lust does take affect when looking possible purchaces.

[Dennis V. Nix]

I really like the idea and the suggestions of the other members. I agree it should be to PGCA members only or everybody will be writing in for an estimate to sell their gun. Some will be disappointed to find out their gun isn't really all that rare or valuable. Others will be ecstatic to discover their uncle's gun from the attic is a one of a kind rarity. Occasionally I read on the forum about a gun that could be the first or last of a series where possibly a part changed from type to another etc. This is possibly a good method for Parker collectors can discover new and rare guns.

One suggestion: must it be limited to firearms? I imagine people have numerous articles manufactured by the Parker Brothers and have an interest in what it is and a possible value. I for one would appreciate seeing other Parker memorabilia as well. I say let's give it a try.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Appraisals are like opinions everyone has one and usually they are different, even based on facts and documentation. What happens if the PGCA makes an appraisal for some one they buy the gun based on the info from us. Then find out they can not sell the piece at the value quoted by PGCA, yea you can have disclaimers, but that sort of goes against the validity of the appraisal. It is a very grey area. Just my thoughts Gary

[Brian Dudley]

And even formal appraisals can be high sometimes. Sometimes it even depends on how much you pay for the appraisal if the one doing it is not all that honest.

[Rich Anderson]

I can see lots of shades of Grey here. Definately a members only forum but the appraisors idea of original case color and someone else saying it's an older DelGrego redo is just an example of the difference of opinion. All we are talking about here are the opinion's of value and I don't see how an accurate opinion can be made on value with out the item in hand.

[Bruce Day]

so how much is this worth? A Parker-Hawes 9' 3 pc, extra tip 6 wt.

[Rich Anderson]

I can only accurately appraise this in hand. Please send it to me and I'll give it a work out on the AuSable:) My guess is three Blue Gill, a Spec and one 20 inch Brown Trout:rotf:

[Dean Romig]

I agree with you Gary and another aspect no one has brought up yet is the potential unterrior motive of a person offering an appraisal.

Certainly the PGCA or any of its officers or BOD will never give an appraisal on this forum.

[Dean Romig]

so how much is this worth? A Parker-Hawes 9' 3 pc, extra tip 6 wt.

Okay, I'll take the bait... but first I need to know what you paid for it...:shock:

Isn't that what we often hear whenever we wish to sell a gun? :banghead:

[Bill Murphy]

When asked to appraise a gun on paper, I always tell the owner if I am interested in owning the gun. At that point, he can look into my eyes and decide whether to go elsewhere for the appraisal. I have found out that some widder wimmen don't like to look into your eyes, especially if they are still in some kind of reasonable condition. They must be using some other procedure to determine your honesty.

[Paul Stafford]

A gun is worth whatever an individual will pay for it. If a member wanted opinions of other members to get an idea of its estimated worth that is one reasonable benefit. I would hate to see guns advertised as "valued by PGCA" on a gun for sale listing. If people want an estimate by the mass of Parker collectors they should have to join the PGCA, an added benefit. Just my opinion.

[Robin Lewis]

IMHO, this is a good idea that will be extremely hard, if not impossible to implement. If you look at the thread on this years PGCA meeting and think about the grousing in it about the location and date, just imagine what kind of negative vibes "judging and valuing" someones Parker will generate. With $$$$.00 involved it is going to get ugly. "You can't please all he people...." and this is going to cause some hard feeling and unsportsmanlike comments. JMHO.....

[Ray Masciarella]

It is a great idea. Opinions would be worth what they are worth. I'm a lawyer and opine that there isn't any liablilty to anyone for giving an opinion based on what they see in a photo. Who cares if someone thinks accuarate appraisal can't be done. They're probably correct but the appraisal is what it is. If someone wants a real appraisal, then they need to go get one. If someone just wants a bunch of opinion, why not ask here? Seems to be the best place to get a bunch of opinions based on the info provided. IMHO.

[George Lander]

It would be next to impossible to accurately appraise a Parker, Fox, LC Smith, Ithaca, etc. without having the gun in hand. A Stevens 311, perhaps. An interested owner would do better going to the "prices realised" section of the major gun auction sites and comparing what he has with those sold. Provenance is another matter and if a factory letter is available, perhaps he should order that first. A free appraisel is usually worth about as much as it cost. IMHO.

Best Regards, George

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

I like the idea and as far as opinions go they are just that.I also know that alot of people look at blue book guides for the price they think the gun is worth. They are just a guide and the last time I checked blue book of gun values never or can't buy a gun but the man standing in front of you with cash can. So that may be what your gun is worth that particular day.Thanks Thomas

[Rick Henley]

I see a lot of threads that ask for members to appraise the value of a Parker, including the thread below. This thread shows the kind of discussions that are likely going to show up more often than the members giving an accurate, consensus appraisal of the value and the original poster thanking everyone for their help. Page 3 is where everything starts to go wrong.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7911

[AlexDade]

As the originator of the mentioned thread above, here's my opinion:

- Great idea, but opinions are just that - opinions, and they should be taken as such
- We need to be careful about how we express them. If we say "looks like the barrels have been shortened" that's fine, but if we were to say "who the hell butchered this otherwise nice gun" someone may take offense

The key is the spirit of the thing. I, myself was the victim of my own sensitivity about my gun. It's an easy thing to fall prey to. Having said all that, if someone can't take opinions, they shouldn't ask for them. If someone reacts like that we should all say "oh well....you asked."

And by the way, I'd recommend everybody avoid the use of the word "appraisal" when asked -- for reasons mentioned above.

The purpose of our forum is to have fun, learn and appreciate these fine historical firearms. Let's just enjoy them and not get too caught up in the legalities.

My two cents.