Diminutive 16-bore

[John Havard]

After purchasing this little VH 16-bore 0-frame sight-unseen (besides photos on the internet) I almost chose to send it back. It was represented to me as being pristine. Obviously it has been redone as witnessed by any number of immediately apparent things once held in hand.

However, I decided to keep it for a couple of reasons. First of all, I love 16-bore shotguns. Also, I was very surprised by how tiny and light it is. On the digital scale it weighs 6#4oz with its 28" barrels. The LOP is more suitable for a pixie than a normal human being, 13 3/4". Dimensions are fine and it functions nicely.

The barrel flats are stamped 3#4oz which seems very light for a 16-bore shotgun with 28" tubes. However, I've checked wall thickness with my Hosford gauge and only found one spot where the minimum reached .025" just before the choke on the left tube. Both tubes are .663" and both are choked with a total restriction of .020".

The price I paid was on the high side of reasonable for a gun that has been redone, so I can't feel too badly about keeping it.

My question for the more experienced members of the board is this: how unusual is it to have a 16-bore, 0-frame with 28" tubes that weighs only 6#4oz?

Here are few pics:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/JCHavard/IMG_4565.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/JCHavard/IMG_4563.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/JCHavard/IMG_4566.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/JCHavard/IMG_4567.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/JCHavard/IMG_4570.jpg

[Brian Dudley]

The 0 frame in 16g. is more rare than the 1 frame guns. And usually more sought after for that fact, and due to the nice light weight.

I see they decided to blue the side screws. Is the top lever done too? Can't tell from the pics. The bottom screws do not look like they are.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

I bet it will be a fun gun to shoot! and light enough to carry all day. Gary

[Mills Morrison]

I would go shoot it a bunch and get the new blueing worn off. It ought to be a great gun to shoot. Particularly for quail

[Mike Shepherd]

I have a VH16 O frame with 28" barrels that weighs 5lbs 14oz. Has LOP of 13-5/8" to a HRBP.

I have VHE16 O frame with 26" barrels that weighs 5lbs 15oz. 14-3/16 to a HRBP

Fun fun guns. I have carried the VH16 28" hundreds of hours over West Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Montana.

[John Havard]

Mike, thank you for that comparison data. So 6#4oz isn't too out of the ordinary. Interesting.

Brian, the bottom screws are case colored, and the top lever is case colored too.

John

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

John: I don't no how rare it is but it is pretty lose to my little quail gun. Thomas

[greg conomos]

The VH 16 0 frame I have - the gun no one wants - has 28" tubes at 3 lbs 1 ounce.

[Steve Huffman]

I just checked mine and its marked 2 lbs 15 oz with 28" tubes

[Dean Romig]

0-Frame 16 ga Parker's weights are all over the map. It is generally accepted that the 0-Frame sixteen was produced as a lightweight alternative to the 1-Frame sixteen. There are however, some 0-Frame sixteens that outweigh some of the lighter 1-Frame sixteens. I have one 0-Frame sixteen with 26" barrels that weighs 7# 2oz.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Just weighed my 1 frame 16 for comparison and it comes in a 6lb 9oz.
28" barrels and 14 1/4"LOP.
Bob Jurewicz

[John Farrell]

My 1917 16 gauge 0 frame VH with 28" barrels and a 13.5" LOP weighs in at 5 lbs 13 ounces. It still retains some case color. It will come out of the gun safe to be my dove gun this year.

[charlie cleveland]

john what do the barrels weigh on your 0 frame 16 ga. and are the barrels thin at the shooting end im wondering about all the light weight guns that parker built.if all the barrels are thin at the end.i dont see how they could make thick ended barrels and have a light weight gun...my gh parker 20 ga o frame but with v grade 26 inch barrels are thin at the end and weight markedis 2 14 stamped on barrels...hope you can decipher this.... charlie

[Harold Lee Pickens]

People were just alot shorter back then, hence the short LOP. I have an O frame DHE 16 and it has a 13 7/8" LOP. Just a little too short for me to shoot well and if I put a lace-on pad to lengthen it, the drop increases to more than I like. The gun has 26' cyl/mod barrels (per letter)and weighs in at 6 lbs.

[Jay Gardner]

I have two 16 ga Parkers both with 28" barrels: a DH with 28" damascus barrels (3-11) on a 1-frame that weights 6-lb, 4-oz and a VH with 28" barrels (3-2) on an 0-frame that weights 6-lb, 8-oz.

[CraigThompson]

I've got a GH 16 damascus .

This one is a #1 frame , the barrels are marked 3 pounds 6 ounces . However they've been cut to 27" so I assume 3-6 was for a 28" set of pipes .

My LOP to the DHBP is 14 3/16ths .

Not sure what this one weighs exactly as I don't have a digital scale here at home .

On a bathroom scale however it appears to be just a shade over 6 pounds like maybe 6 1/4 pounds .

[Dave Suponski]

Interesting stuff. As Dean say's O Frame 16's can be all over the lot. Just because the gun is on a 20 gauge frame does not mean it's a light gun.

My O 16 with 28" barrels weighs 6lbs 3oz. 14 1/4" LOP to a DHBP barrel weight is 3lbs. 2oz.

My 1 frame 16 with 26" barrels weighs 6lbs. 12 oz. barrel weight is 3lbs. 8oz.

[John Farrell]

Charlie - The left barrel flat on my 0 frame 16 is stamped V in a circle and 2 1 3 and just 16 on the right barrel flat. The barrels weigh 2 lbs 6 3/8 ounces. The receiver and stock is 3 lbs 1/4 ounce, the forend is 6 3/8 ounces. The total weight of 5 lbs 13 oz is the gun assembled with the spur DHBP.

The right barrel is choked Mod (.619) and the left is a tight Full (.645). The right barrel wall is .032 at the muzzle, 1.52 at the breech. The left barrel wall is .036 at the muzzle and 1.52 at the breech.

The chambers are 2 5/8". Hence, I cut shells back to 2 1/2 +/- and it has been my practice to use roll crimped lo pressure loads with 1 ounce of shot. Truth be told, I haven't shot the gun much in the past 12 years since acquiring my Churchill 16 gauge gun. The 0 frame will be resurrected in two weeks for dove shooting, however. JF

[Dave Noreen]

I've said it before, but the Brothers P did more weird and wonderful stuff with weight and balance than any other makers I know of. I know 2-frame 12-gauges that go over nine pounds and 3-frame 12-gauges that go 8 and a half pounds, both with 30-inch barrels. One year when Kevin and I were doing the PGCA booth at Sandanona, we had 32-inch barrel 20-gauges on the rack on 2-frame, 1-frame, and 0-frame. Likewise, most people think of the late 1/2 frame 12-gauges as light weight guns, but there exists at least one long barrel 1/2 frame 12-gauge that goes over 8 pounds! All great stuff and what keeps us coming back for more.

[edgarspencer]

I'm assuming someone may draw a conclusion from all these numbers, but don't count me in that crowd, as I'm no less enlightened after looking at my 16s
My 0 frame VH 16,with 28" bbls, has an unstruck weight of 3/1, and my 1 frame VH 16, with 26" pipes has an unstruck weight of 3/7. My DHE 16 with 28" bbls weighs in at 3/4, so where the extra 3 ounces is hidden leads me to believe that Ejector fore ends weigh more than extractor fore ends. It's logical to assume that the smaller bore, for a given frame and barrel length would be heavier, so I checked a 28" VH 20, and it was 3/8. OK, comparing like for like, the 20 comes in an ounce heavier that the 16. So why are the 1 frame barrels (28") WITH ejectors on the DHE 3 ounces lighter than the 1 frame VH16 (26") ?
It was always my understanding that the stamped weight was the unstruck barrel WITH the fore end, and at some point, when I had access to a digital scale, I confirmed this, but I've never weighed fore ends by themselves.
I DO know one thing, (two if remembering where I live counts) The 28" DHE is a tad more forgiving on my shoulder after 100 rounds of clays, than the lighter 28" VH, but lugging the VH all day in the woods, and maybe getting off a dozen shots, is more forgiving on the rest of my body.

[Jay Gardner]

I'm thinking a sub-6 pound 16 ga would be great gun to carry afield but grow unpleasant very quickly shooting clay birds. My 6-lb, 4-oz, 16 DH with dam barrels is just about the perfect grouse gun.

[Dave Suponski]

Edgar, For the sake of clarification. The unstuck barrel weight that is stamped on the barrel assembley is without the forend.

[greg conomos]

I suspect when the barrels were unstruck they had never even seen the forend yet.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar, For the sake of clarification. The unstuck barrel weight that is stamped on the barrel assembley is without the forend.

That makes sense to me, Dave, however, when it was explained to me by a pretty reputable Parker expert, it also made sense. I believe the final striking was just before cold rust bluing, with ribs soldered and fitted to the gun, which would have had to include the fore end. I have weighed finished barrels with the fore end attached, and in most cases, they were about One ounce less than the stamped weight. It is highly unlikely they removed the weight of the fore end plus one once in final striking.

[Dave Suponski]

Edgar,Years ago I subscribed to this theory also but since then I have learned differently. Please take a look at page 427 in TPS. I shows an unfinished set of barrels with the weight stamp already impressed in the assembly. I have had a similar set here and that set wasn't chambered yet. I really believe the barrel weight stamp was for internal use to help the fitters chose a set of barrels that would compliment the final desired weight of a finished gun.

[Russ Jackson]

Dave ,I think your theory is probably correct as you are referring ,but I have weighed just about every Parker barrel I have owned and came up with what Edgar is saying ,with Forend on and laying on an old egg scale almost everyone was the Unstruck Barrel Weight stamped on the barrels or within an 1/2 oz. . Coincidence ,maybe but pretty unbelievable ? We had a Thread on this quite a while ago ,I don't think we ever did reach a solid conclusion ! Makes for good conversation !:) Russ

[Dave Suponski]

Russ, I have found the exact same thing You and Edgar have found. I was a firm believer in what you guys are saying but after doing further research and with the publishing of theTPS along with many long conversations with the Authors and Dr. Hogan I have come to believe different.

[Steve Huffman]

This is kinda over my head but would you not fit the forearm to a finished set of barrels ?

[edgarspencer]

Years ago I subscribed to this theory also but since then I have learned differently.
OK, So I'm a few years behind you. So as to save me a lot of trouble down the road, what other theories have you previously subscribed to and since changed your thinking?

[Dave Suponski]

Edgar, I didn't mean that statement in a disparaging way. I hope I didn't offend. I find this Parker thing a constant learning experience. I will reveal the other "theories" as they appear. One of them that has been on my mind lately is the obvious difference in the style of trap forends.

[edgarspencer]

I didn't mean that statement in a disparaging way. I hope I didn't offend.
Don't be rediculous:bigbye: