Parkers in the Remington Museum

[Brian Dudley]

On my way home from the Meriden gathering this past weekend, I made the point to stop in Ilion to see the Remington Museum. I did not get there in time for a factory tour... some other time maybe. They have quite a bit of Parkers there on display. 11 Parkers in total. Among them a Try Gun, the Trojan Skeet Gun, an huge 8ga. GH straight grip, an A-1 Custom (I am sure built by Remington) and a SC trap gun. However, the most interesting gun on display was another Trojan, that was on the wall directly below the Trojan Skeet Gun.

I have done some searching on the forum, as well as reached out to a few of the Parker Pages editors and it does not appear that this gun has been previously discussed.

What I believe this gun to be is an actual finished prototype version of James P. Hayes cost reduced cocking mechanism!

The Parker Story talks about this improvement that Hayes designed and tried to implement on pages 132 - 134. Figure 4.16 shows a drawing of the mechinism that is notorized April 1, 1911. His design reduced 18 parts in the Parker cocking mechanism down to 4pcs. It had the gun as being cocked by an extension on the forend iron (similar to Fox guns), which pushed on a pair of rods to cock the hammers. Since thebell crank was elimated, the dolls head on the trigger plate was not required and the screws that cover the crank pin are eliminated. But, since the bellcrank acted as a barrel stop, Hayes had to resurect the check hook from the hammer gun design.

Figure 4.17 in TPS shows a photo of what is stated to be the known prototype of this new design. This prototype is a very rough graded frame and is not finished.

Pictured below is the Trojan that I mention above that hangs in the Remington Museum. It displays ALL of the features of Hayes modified design, but this gun is fully finished! You will observe no dolls head on the trigger plate, no front screw on the side of the frame. And what appears to be a check hook pin at the base of the water table. Also, the forend iron has the Fox type extension clearly visable. Another interesting feature is the forend latch. It is of a different design than normal and it is also important to note that the Trojan Skeet Gun above it has a similar exposed latch on it, but it is different.
The gun also has blued metal parts instead of CCH.

Now... I do not know the Serial number of the gun. But I am in the process of finding this out thorugh the Remington Society. One would think that maybe this was a very early Trojan which was made with Hayes design as a fiished gun. This would be assumed since the Trojan was introduced only a year after Hayes new design was created. But... Look at the safety and top lever! It has the later style button which was not used until nearly 1920. So was this gun an farther attempt to explore hayes design? Maybe, but it is my suspision that this was a later attempt by Remington to revive Hayes' design. I come to this loose conclusion based on the fact that it uses the same unusual forend latch that the Trojan Skeet gun has, which was a Remington designed model.

TPS states that there was 4 different experimental Trojan guns in the stock books and it was before the 1938 move, but under Remington management. They are 236738, 236972, 237018 and 237447. The last, S/N 237447, is the Skeet model on display above this Trojan that I write about. Is it possible that this Trojan is one of the other 3 numbers? I hope to find out.

Another important observation is that this Trojan has the "Parker Bros" engraving on the side, but the Skeet gun does not.

17102

17103

17104

17105

17106

17107

[Bill Murphy]

Well, if nothing else, it has an interesting forend latch.

[Dean Romig]

Is that a Remington Model 32 forend latch?

[Bill Murphy]

No, it is not a 32 latch. It looks like it may be a roller like on a Model 21. However, a Trojan doesn't need a latch and neither does the 21. I own a prototype 21 with no latch and it works just fine. The "latch" is just a sign of a higher grade gun in the trade. A latch on a Trojan may be to secure a beavertail forend which is more likely to come off under recoil than a splinter.

[Dean Romig]

Any forend I have removed from a Trojan has been pretty stubborn in allowing itself to be separated from the barrels. It would be hard to imagine a beavertail forend on a Trojan might be likely to come off under recoil... but that is likely the reason a latch would have been incorporated on a Trojan nonetheless.

[charlie cleveland]

you got a sharp eye for details brian...bout all i no is if they shoot or not...thanks for the notes on the guns...someday i hope to see the musem my self and the town the parkers were made in... charlie

[Brian Dudley]

I am in the process of finding the contact at Remington that is responsible for this gun to see if I can get the S/N and maybe a chance to see it up close. I believe this gun to be truely significant and I am excited to be able to document it formally.

It took a bit of leaning over the lower glass cases and careful angling of my camera to get the photos that I did. Good thing that there was no one around. They would have thought I was nuts. lol.

[Andy Kelley]

The latch reminds me of one on a special order Fox with a BTFE . Sadly, I no longer have the gun.

[Dave Noreen]

The Parker Bros. Trojan Grade gun wasn't introduced to the trade until 1912. Could this gun be an early experiment in producing a lower priced Parker Bros. gun? That roller forearm larch looks like the latch used on Tobin ejector guns.

The actual forearm latch used on the Trojan Grade as introduced is a version of the J.C. Kremer & A.H. Fox Patent No. 1,029,374 latch used on some early Ansley H. Fox graded smallbores and some of the early Sterlingworths. A.H. Fox Gun Co. finally settled on using their F.T. Russell Patent No. 1,029,229 latch on all their snap-off/on forearms. The year the PGCA met at the gun show in Richmond, Babe Delgrego showed me some letters he had between Parker Bros. and A.H. Fox Gun Co. about their use of the Kremer & Fox latch.

[John Dallas]

Years ago, there was a "1 of 1000" 3200 on display in the museum with serial #1 or 2. One of the Remington directors at the time had bought one of the 1 of 1,000's which had the same serial number. When he saw the identical gun in the museum, he asked (Demanded?) that the museum gun be destroyed. It was, I believe

[Brian Dudley]

Dave,

I do not think it is a pre 1912 gun. That is because of the use of the low profile safety and short top lever. Which was not started to be used until later than that.
James P. Hayes cost cutting design was thought up in 1911.
What I think this to be is an attempt by Remington to revive Hayes' design later on in order to cut costs for them.

Until I get the S/N on the gun, we cannot be sure of when it was made. That will be key.

[Bill Murphy]

John D., in 1998, the 3200 One of 1000 pair, trap and skeet, serial #1 was in the original green plastic case, stored away in the archives. I don't know whether you are referring to before or after 1998. The serial numbers are not identical as I recall. The trap gun has a "T" in the serial number and the skeet gun has an "S". I may be wrong about that. I do not own one so can't take a look.

[John Dallas]

This would have been in the late 70's or early 80's. I don't remember if it was the #1 or #2 set. I have the #3 set which my Dad bought as a Remington Director

[Bill Murphy]

As I said, the #1 set was in the Archives in 1998. It may still be.

[John Farrell]

Thanks, Brian. Good story and photos. JF

[Tom Will]

That latch looks a lot like the roller latch on my LC Smith . If you have John Houchins ' book on pages 236 and 407. Only the roller seems to be reverced

[Dean Romig]

That safety "button" is the post-1917 design. Even well after 1917 the Trojans were still being manufactured with the pre-1917 button. I have a 1923 Trojan 16 ga. with the pre-1917 safety button yet it also has the rib extension which had been all but phased out on Trojans quite a lot earlier than mine.

[Mark Conrad]

The wood in the forend has some figure which would lead me to believe it is a late Remington gun. The wood on the Trojan skeet was very nice. I also suspect it was one of the expermential guns listed in TPS.

Mark

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, I just looked at my pictures of the Trojan Skeet we inspected in 1998. It is a real Skeet with single trigger, straight grip, fancy wood, and beavertail. Did you photograph the skeet gun as well as the Trojan in your post?

[Brian Dudley]

Yes. I did take some photos of the Trojan Skeet gun when I inspected the Trojan Prototype at Remington.
I handled and broke down the skeet gun.
I will pull out the few photos I took and post them shortly.

[Carl Brandt]

I appears to have a pin where you would expect one to be for a check-hook. Anyone ever open this gun to see how it is taken down?

[Bill Murphy]

The Research Committee didn't inspect the gun Brian pictured, and he said it was in a locked display case when he was there.

[Brian Dudley]

Carl,

The gun you refer to with the check hook is the James Hayes 2nd Prototype Trojan. Serial Number 226709. It features the Hayes Revised cocking mechanism, experimental ejectors and a experimental forend latching system. This is the gun that I inspected and documented when I went to Remington. It is the subject of my Summer 2013 Double Gun Journal Article. And I will be putting together a more condensed version of that article for an upcoming issue of PP when i get the chance.

Actually, the gun was not locked up when I was there. it hangs right on the wall below the Trojan Skeet.

here are a few photos of that gun.

31720

31715

31716

31717

31718

31719

[Mark Conrad]

Bill, it would be nice for you to post pictures of the skeet gun that we handled. Do you have the serial of that gun?

[Brian Dudley]

The Serial number of the Skeet gun at Remington is 237447
It is a 2 frame gun.

I have posted photos in this thread.

http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=132889#post132889

[Mark Conrad]

Now, if we can get Chuck do do a quick check in the stock book. I remember several guns that had EXP and I think this is one of the guns. Thanks Brian.

[Bill Murphy]

The gun that Brian pictures in the other thread is the skeet Trojan at the Remington museum. I can't imagine why Parker Brothers made hammerless guns with the complicated barrel stop when they could have used the pin that was used in the three lug hammer guns. Brian, what do you think?

[Brian Dudley]

The cocking mechanism that Hayes developed was very simple and could have saved Parker a lot of money. I go into the cost savings on specific operations in more detail in my DGJ article. These calculations come directly from Hayes' original notes. But my guess is that when Hayes originally proposed this mechanism in 1910, management didn't want a completely different hammerless gun to have to make and still service the old one. But there is no documentation supporting one theory vs. another.
And, when the second, fully finished, prototype was made in 1928, the depression hit a year later and. Parker was Sold to Remington only a few years after that. I suspect that we may have seen Hayes' design revision implemented if all that wouldn't have happened.

Especially the coil spring ejector mechanism. This gun was not the only one made with that type of mechanism, another was owned by Charlie Parker. DelGrego threw that one out unfourtunately.
Although Hayes co-designed the original flat spring ejector mechanism is 1901, we know he was a constant tinkerer and looking for improvement. No doubt that 25 or more years later, he wanted to improve on it.

[Bill Murphy]

Any idea why the three lug design was scrapped for the complicated check hook?

[Brian Dudley]

Well, the Charles King designed Hammerless guns uses the Bellcrank mechanism to cock the guns. With all that there, there is no room for a check hook and pin as used on the hammer guns.
The hammerless design used the milled cut in the frame for the cocking crank as the positive stop for the barrels.

I still cannot figure fully why Hayes used a separate piece in the barrel lug for the check hook on his second prototyle instead of an intigrated hook like the hammer guns. I would suspect as to make the hook replacable in the event of breakage. But I do not know of check hook breakage being a common issue on hammer guns.

[Dean Romig]

I still cannot figure fully why Hayes used a separate piece in the barrel lug for the check hook on his second prototyle instead of an intigrated hook like the hammer guns.


I think because it was a 'prototype' made from available parts that could be modified easily and cheaply until (and if) the design was adopted.

[Brian Dudley]

Hayes very crude 1910 prototype (pictured in TPS), used a check hook lug removed from a hammer gun. It was soldered onto the lug of the DH that was used to make the Prototype. I was able to personally inspect this gun as well when I was doing all my research.

[Bill Murphy]

An A&D type of cocking mechanism coupled with the three lug barrel stop would have made the Parker easier and cheaper to manufacture and less prone to malfunction. Oh, well.

[Dave Suponski]

Here ya go Bill. I will leave it up to you to label these great pictures.

[Dean Romig]

Wow! What I wouldn't give to have been a part of that team!!

[Brian Dudley]

What's with the fist fulls of frames and straight grip guards?

[Bill Zachow]

Brian, those are parts from the original Remington program to ressurect the Parker gun in the 1980s. When I was there inthe early 90s the had crates of parts. I wonder if they still have them.

[Brian Dudley]

I am sure they have the parts. Just likely not any of the same people that were there at that time.
I know it took me a while to find out who I had to talk to about going in there to inspect Trojan 226709.

[Bill Murphy]

I will try to label the pictures, left to right, from the top.

1. Frank Sweeney rooting through the box of Kolar made parts for the planned Parker reintroduction.

2. Swanson and McCormack in the Archives.

3. Mark Conrad and Kevin McCormack

4. Conrad and Murphy examining the Trojan Skeet

5. Murphy with the prototype Remington Model 1100 Trench Gun

6. Swanson, Dennis Sanita, our host, Murphy, and Ron Kirby, our leader, with the Trojan Skeet

7. The sign in the parking lot of the Arms welcoming the PGCA Research Team

8. Al Swanson at the copier

9. Stock books in the rack

10. Same as #6

11. Order books in the rack

12. Jim Hall, Conrad, Swanson, Sweeney

13. A 1972 shot by my Dad in DelGrego's original shop

14. 1972, Babe DelGrego striking barrels, shot by my Dad

15. Larry DelGrego Sr. holding my GHE Damascus 16 gauge, 1972

16. Dr. Dave Rozier, Swanson, Murphy

17. Murphy and the Trojan Skeet

18. Murphy with the Kolar parts

19. Murphy rooting in the Kolar box

20. Murphy with the makings of his four gun set of Parkers.

I hope you enjoy these pictures as much as we enjoyed our week in the Arms.

[Eric Eis]

And now I wonder what is going to happen to the Museum now that Remington is moving out of the State of NY... Is all of this just going to go into storage never to be seen again... Sure got to to thank the Gov. of NY for pushing Remington out of the state.:cuss:

[Bill Murphy]

In the album that Dave pictures, there were a few pictures of the reintroduction parts laid out, including monoblocs and many small parts. Don Mainland manufactured all parts for the new Parker except tubes and wood parts. There were also a few more pictures of Larry DelGrego Sr. and the old shop that my Dad took in 1972. I'm not sure that Dave took pictures of the whole album or just the pictures he posted. The reason that more guns are not shown is that we had very little time for pictures and took most of them in one day. The most interesting find among the guns in the archives were cases of Model 1917 Enfields that have never been out of the Arms since they were made during WW1. Thanks for the pictures, Dave.

[Ed Blake]

Interesting that one of the largest sporting arms manufacturers in the world had to contract out parts to a boutique outfit like Kolar.

[Brian Dudley]

Remington moving from Ilion completely is not a deffinate as of yet as I understand it.

[Kevin McCormack]

You're lucky you got in there at all, what with the pall of 'creative hysteria' looming over the place. Sure beats driving to Arkansas, though!

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, I don't think Remington is moving. They are relocating to manufacture just certain products outside of Ilion. Ed, Kolar didn't start making Remington products with the Parker Reintroduction. They made the Remington Model 90T from buttplate to front sight.

[John Dallas]

Fox News thinks the Big Green is moving.

http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/02/16/remington-arms-moving-2000-jobs-ny-alabama

[Bill Murphy]

Ilion, "remain open", "reduced workforce".

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Sort of goes against the grain," New York we are open for business" yea really, Gary

[Eric Eis]

Ilion, "remain open", "reduced workforce".

Secretary at a desk directing phone calls down south, the other 2000 employees, I guess Gov. doesn't care much about....:nono:

[Bill Zachow]

Having worked for some of NY's major manufacturers and watched them, one by one--GM, IBM, GE, Bristol Meyers, New Process Gear, Carrier, etc., etc., etc.--move out of the state or reduce their operations to next to nothing, I will confidently predict that Remington will move all or most of their manufacturing South, level the physical plant (as Carrier did to reduce taxes) and donate as much of the uncontaminated land as they can to the city of Illion. Based on NY's extremely high costs of doing business here--electricity, taxes, and regulations --all highest in the nation, it simply makes no sense to continue operations here when you have a much lower cost of production facility in the South. Couple that with your home state declaring part of your product line illegal. What smart businessman would stay?

[Jim Signore]

The way I understand it, according to the original business charter, Remington cannot ever fully leave Illion. Now of course that was drawn up a long time ago, so things can be changed. That said, I believe they will move most, if not all, manufacturing out of Illion eventually. I believe in order to satisfy the original charter, should they choose to do so, they will leave the museum and custom shop, or I hope so at least.

Being born and raised 40 miles from Illion and a die hard Remington enthusiast, I hate to see the doors closed there forever. That's alot of this country's history in firearms to just flush away in my opinion. All my first guns were Remington, so they will always have a special place in my life.

[Bill Zachow]

When the new facility in the South will have up to 2000 jobs and the present location in Illion employs significantly less than that, it is hard to visualize a foreseeable production volume increase necessitating 2000 new positions. Thus, the only rational future is moved jobs.

[Bill Murphy]

If Zachow's comment about levelling The Arms comes true, maybe corn or soybeans would be a good business plan.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

And all the TV ads say New York is open for business again, sounds like a bunch of BS, Remington has a long history, and I am sure they contributed to the local and state economy in more ways than one, but with all that said, if they do move to the South we will welcome them with open arms, Gary

[Bill Murphy]

I'm bringing this great thread to the top to complement the recent discussion of prototypes and half frames. Enjoy the pictures.

[Craig Budgeon]

Well if Remington needs a presence in New York may I suggest building an outhouse across from the governors mansion.