Winchester 1897 Black Diamond Trap

[Ed Blake]

I think these pump guns have great lines, and I've noticed more of them popping up on the auction sites. They all seem to have short LOPs, like 13 3/4". I've also noticed several variations on the butt: a curved Winchester butt plate, a flat butt for a pad, and another with a steel butt plate. I assume the shooter could order whatever he wanted. Neat guns. When looking at them is there anything to be especially aware of? Thanks

[Steve Huffman]

Worn sear springs hammer will fall when closing action also watch the web of your hand I love the 97s

[Steve McCarty]

I think these pump guns have great lines, and I've noticed more of them popping up on the auction sites. They all seem to have short LOPs, like 13 3/4". I've also noticed several variations on the butt: a curved Winchester butt plate, a flat butt for a pad, and another with a steel butt plate. I assume the shooter could order whatever he wanted. Neat guns. When looking at them is there anything to be especially aware of? Thanks

Hunters and shooters used to wear heavy canvas coats, or a thick wool sweater and some kind of shooting vest, thus the short LOP to compensate. I know that I feel the difference when I shoot a longer gun while wearing winter duds and I don't like it. Even a quarter inch in LOP makes a difference to me.

Pumps fell from favor, but now are gaining ground and those old Model 97's that languished in grandpa's closet are worth money today. I have one, but don't shoot it much. I prefer the model 12....or better yet an Ithaca mod 37.

[Bill Murphy]

Model 97 Traps are scarce in high condition. Some Traps do not have the matted barrel but are still original. I have not seen a Trap that I considered original that did not have the TRAP GUN stamp on the breech bolt. The curved hard rubber buttplate is hard to find. Some early buttplates have peaks like the Parker dog's head buttplate. The complete package is original butt, TRAP GUN stamp, matted barrel and receiver top, and black diamond stock. 32" barrel is scarce in a Trap. I have not had the opportunity to buy one in years of searching.

[Fred Preston]

Some more detailed pics of my '97 below. Its pull is 14&1/8" which is usable for me (could be another 1/2"). My main problem is the small trigger guard when gloved in cold weather. The butt stock and plate are slightly curved; the BP is hard rubber like a DHBP without the "peak".

[charlie cleveland]

them old 97 s are fine guns..most seen a lot of hard use and were hunted hard but most have survived...ive got a good shooter in the 97 its a 12 ga 30 inch full choke and kicks like a mule with high brass shells.... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

Model 97 Traps are scarce in high condition. Some Traps do not have the matted barrel but are still original. I have not seen a Trap that I considered original that did not have the TRAP GUN stamp on the breech bolt. The curved hard rubber buttplate is hard to find. Some early buttplates have peaks like the Parker dog's head buttplate. The complete package is original butt, TRAP GUN stamp, matted barrel and receiver top, and black diamond stock. 32" barrel is scarce in a Trap. I have not had the opportunity to buy one in years of searching.

I know a fellow who owns one. He inherited it. He told me that I could have his first one or two children, but he is keeping that gun. He said it's like new. I haven't seen it tho. A 97 Black Diamond trap gun.

Question: If I take an old Model 12 and mount one of those strap on combs to the stock have I just created a trap gun?

[David Holes]

I have shot some really good registered trap scores with a solid rib model 12. So yes, anything is possible. Dave

[Steve McCarty]

them old 97 s are fine guns..most seen a lot of hard use and were hunted hard but most have survived...ive got a good shooter in the 97 its a 12 ga 30 inch full choke and kicks like a mule with high brass shells.... charlie

Pumps were cutting edge shotguns at the turn of the century (the one before last) and were extremely popular for several decades. I still like them. When I was a kid almost everyone shot a pump; a few autos. As a s a college kid someone loaned me a double with a plastic stock! I did fine with it. Have no idea what it was.

I have had trouble shooting a pump at skeet, but I'm not that good. If I could break the first bird quickly I'd have plenty of time to work that trombone.

I like the pencil thin feel of a pump, but I like the old world mystic of the double. I have been shooting trap and skeet and want to shoot my old doubles; a Parker GH, a Fox Sterlingworth, a Spanish ASTRA and an "I" grade Lefever. No one shoots guns like these in my club. No one cares tho. I can shoot whatever I want to shoot.

Here is the question; does anyone shoot one of these old doubles with the low comb at trap/skeet and do any good with them? I suppose I'd have to "cover the bird" but that's okay with me....if it works.

[David Holes]

My first parker was a vh 12, 28 inch, imp mod and full. First time shooting skeet I broke a 24. High 8 proved tough with that choke. I walked off station 7 with 2 clouds of smoke on a windless day that left my fellow shooters amazed. What fun. I now shoot a SBT and a vh skeet gun and shoot very well indeed. Dave

[Steve McCarty]

I have shot some really good registered trap scores with a solid rib model 12. So yes, anything is possible. Dave

Thank you. My model 12, 12 doesn't have a rib, but my Model 12, 16 does. Does the rib make that much difference? The thing is the 12 gauge has cast off and when mounted my eye lines up perfectly along the barrel. I've never shot it at trap, but will.

[Dean Romig]

Parkers are all I shoot at skeet, trap and sporting clays and I do sufficiently well not to cause me to want to shoot a pump, gas job, or OU instead.

[David Holes]

I have shot alot of single barrel trap guns , My SBT Parker is amazing. Dave

[Steve McCarty]

My first parker was a vh 12, 28 inch, imp mod and full. First time shooting skeet I broke a 24. High 8 proved tough with that choke. I walked off station 7 with 2 clouds of smoke on a windless day that left my fellow shooters amazed. What fun. I now shoot a SBT and a vh skeet gun and shoot very well indeed. Dave

It sounds to me that you are a better shot than I. I like your spirit. I'm shooting my SBT in trap and will continue to do so. Been shooting a Browning Gold Fusion with the skeet choke screwed in at skeet. It works okay, but I liked my old Rem 1100 better... I no longer own the gun. I've also shot a SKB Ithaca 385 with skeet chokes for skeet. It worked okay, but I just don't like the feel of the gun.

Fact is, I was raised a hunter and while we did shoot trap when the season started, we only did it to sharpen our eye for the feathered fowl.

Shooting clays is an entirely different breed of cat, and while I like it; hunting is best.

[Bill Zachow]

While looking at the 97s, you may get lucky and find a 1893. Predecessor to the 1897 and much scarcer. The 1893 was basically too weak in the frame to consistently handle the early smokeless powder shells. Winchester made about 20,000 before the problems became too numerous to ignore. Winchester offered to replace any 1893 with a new 1897, grade for grade. All returned 93s were destroyed making them one of the scarcest Winchester pump shotguns around. The only scarcer one would be the model 61 .22 shot. 93s and early 97s came with plain, uncheckered steelbuttplates which had a small peak.

[Ed Blake]

Didn't Nash Buckingham shoot a '93 that was exchanged for a '97?

[Steve McCarty]

While looking at the 97s, you may get lucky and find a 1893. Predecessor to the 1897 and much scarcer. The 1893 was basically too weak in the frame to consistently handle the early smokeless powder shells. Winchester made about 20,000 before the problems became too numerous to ignore. Winchester offered to replace any 1893 with a new 1897, grade for grade. All returned 93s were destroyed making them one of the scarcest Winchester pump shotguns around. The only scarcer one would be the model 61 .22 shot. 93s and early 97s came with plain, uncheckered steelbuttplates which had a small peak.

Over the years I have seen a few 93s at gun shows and they garnered little interest. I'll bet people don't know the story just related. Some were damascus. I see more Marlins than Winchesters tho.

When young I attended local carnivals where you got ten shots at little zinc bottles for a dime. We shot those little 61's shooting shorts. Does anyone shoot 22 shorts today? We used to all of the time.

I enjoy my 97, but I haven't shot it much. It just looks great.


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/Shotguns002-1.jpg

[charlie cleveland]

that hammer on the old 97 gives are some kinda carisma...i only have a good shooter in the old 97 my grandson barrowed it about 2 years ago and i aint seen it since...he must like it or throwed it in the creek .... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

that hammer on the old 97 gives are some kinda carisma...i only have a good shooter in the old 97 my grandson barrowed it about 2 years ago and i aint seen it since...he must like it or throwed it in the creek .... charlie

When young lots of our guns had hammers and half cock was considered a reliable and easy to use safety. The 97 could be put on half cock and so could the early Ruger .22 revolvers and my .357 Blackhawk and yes, my ears still ring. The ubiquitous 30/30 Win and Marlin also used the half cock safety and they were about the only high powered rifles that I ever saw in Western Kansas. Some guys still used old Krags. I cannot recall, as I sit here, any rifle sporting glass, or even peep sights, but some must have.

As I peruse photos of bird hunters at the turn of the Century (19 - 20) I see lots of 97's and a few Parkers and Elsies. Other's too, of course, but the 97, in its day, was hot potatos. Hunters must have liked the extra shots and the modernity of the pumps.

[Bill Murphy]

I think that our friend, Dave Noreen, would know about Nash Buckingham's exposed hammer Winchesters. As I recall, he got a Winchester from Harold Money, but I don't know whether it was a 97 or a 93. I have my little covey of 97 Traps, but only one in extremely high condition. Kevin McCormack and I included that one in a "Competition Pigeon Guns" display at the Baltimore Antique Arms Collectors show a couple of years ago. Even though the display included some high grade Parker pigeon guns as well as other valuable pigeon guns, the old minty 97 Trap Grade drew the most questions and offers to purchase. Who knows what turns collectors on?

[John Dallas]

Shooting .22 Shorts - Yes, i shoot them all the time in my Hi Standard Olympic. Best pistol I own.

[Steve McCarty]

I think that our friend, Dave Noreen, would know about Nash Buckingham's exposed hammer Winchesters. As I recall, he got a Winchester from Harold Money, but I don't know whether it was a 97 or a 93. I have my little covey of 97 Traps, but only one in extremely high condition. Kevin McCormack and I included that one in a "Competition Pigeon Guns" display at the Baltimore Antique Arms Collectors show a couple of years ago. Even though the display included some high grade Parker pigeon guns as well as other valuable pigeon guns, the old minty 97 Trap Grade drew the most questions and offers to purchase. Who knows what turns collectors on?

Feeling as if I should know, but who was Nash Buckingham?

[Steve McCarty]

Shooting .22 Shorts - Yes, i shoot them all the time in my Hi Standard Olympic. Best pistol I own.

I shot some shorts in my Smith and Wesson K22 and from that day to this it has been difficult to chamber a LR round. I've tried everything to reem out the chambers. I even chucked a cleaning brush on a drill and ran it through the chambers at high speed...LR rounds still stick.

[Bill Zachow]

2of my favorite .22short guns are a Winchester model 1890, and a Browning semi-auto take down rifle. The Winchester is deadly on golden rod galls up to 25 yards using a Lyman peep sight. Those galls are about 3/4" in diameter. The Browning is not as accurate, due to its small size and light weight. Back to 93 pumps for a moment--a damascus 1893 would be even rarer than a model 61 shot--even rare than the pre-war 61 with the matted receiver like the model 12.

[Dave Noreen]

Nash Buckingham and/or his family had a couple Winchesters. The 1893 that Nash and/or Miles won, supposedly upgraded to 1897 specs --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Nash%20Buckingham/BoWhoop.jpg

Apparantly, Harold Money left his Winchester Model 1897 with Nash when he returned to England circa 1910, and then went off to manage a rubber plantation in Ceylon. After serving his King in The Great War with the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, where he advanced through the ranks from 2nd Lieutenant, to Lieutenant, and then Captain, Harold returned to the U.S. in the 1920s and worked at A & F in New York. He apparantly got his Model 1897 back from the Buckinghams at that time, as Charles Wicks mentions him having it.

There are several pictures in Nash's books of Irma with a Model 1897. Whether it is one of the two previously mentioned guns or another, I don't know.

[Steve McCarty]

2of my favorite .22short guns are a Winchester model 1890, and a Browning semi-auto take down rifle. The Winchester is deadly on golden rod galls up to 25 yards using a Lyman peep sight. Those galls are about 3/4" in diameter. The Browning is not as accurate, due to its small size and light weight. Back to 93 pumps for a moment--a damascus 1893 would be even rarer than a model 61 shot--even rare than the pre-war 61 with the matted receiver like the model 12.

Oh, in that case I probably did not see one, but only read about them. Getting old you know. I've only been going to gun shows since the 50's and I've seen a few guns you see! LOL

Funny, but it seems to me that I did see one once and picked it up. Sorry, not sure. Sometimes, I wish I was 25 again. I was better looking, too.

[charlie cleveland]

a nurse ask my grandfather one time how he kept looking so young he was 93 then...he told her that beauty fades away but ugly only gets better... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

a nurse ask my grandfather one time how he kept looking so young he was 93 then...he told her that beauty fades away but ugly only gets better... charlie

Or, "beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clear to the bone".

[Steve McCarty]

2of my favorite .22short guns are a Winchester model 1890, and a Browning semi-auto take down rifle. The Winchester is deadly on golden rod galls up to 25 yards using a Lyman peep sight. Those galls are about 3/4" in diameter. The Browning is not as accurate, due to its small size and light weight. Back to 93 pumps for a moment--a damascus 1893 would be even rarer than a model 61 shot--even rare than the pre-war 61 with the matted receiver like the model 12.

Didn't Browning make their little .22 auto, the one that loaded thru the butt and had the bolt on the bottom, in 22 short only too? I always liked how that little rifle worked, but it was like shooting a pretzel.

[david ross]

I use a mod 37 ithaca to great old pump guns.
All the best Dave.

[Bill Murphy]

I feel like I have to comment on Researcher's post about Harold Money. I just don't know what to say. Those colonial period Brits lived some lives.

[Dave Suponski]

Bored Bill ?.....:whistle: Hows the rehab coming?

[Steve McCarty]

I use a mod 37 ithaca to great old pump guns.
All the best Dave.

I own two 37s, a 16 and a 12. I put choke tubes in the 12. I like 37's. The 16 is light as a feather, and while not new, it looks as such. I bought, not long ago, a bran new Remington 870 in 20 gauge which was less $ that an Ithaca of similar gauge. I also have five Model 12s in 20, 16 and a few 12s, so I'm pretty well "pumped".

[Steve McCarty]

I feel like I have to comment on Researcher's post about Harold Money. I just don't know what to say. Those colonial period Brits lived some lives.

Yeah, like Sir Richard Burton (not the one of Liz fame).

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, rehab is good. I'm driving and going to the gun club a couple of times a week, but not shooting yet. Using the cane outside the house.

[Dave Suponski]

This is good news Bill. Stay with it and you will be raising hell with the rest of us in no time!

[Bill Zachow]

Browning .22 autos (takedown) were made caliber specific as either .22 long rifle or .22 short. Shells were not interchangeable. While originally manufactured in Belgium at the FN plant, production was moved to Japan for cost control reasons. Noy too long after the move, the .22 short version was discontinued. They were never very popular (think .410 Parkers) and currently bring significantly more bucks than the long rifle version. The last production of the .22 short variety from Belgium was in the late 90s for the Browning Collectors Group. I have one and it is a beautiful gun, comparable to a grade 2 in engraving and a grade 3 in wood and checking.

[Steve McCarty]

Browning .22 autos (takedown) were made caliber specific as either .22 long rifle or .22 short. Shells were not interchangeable. While originally manufactured in Belgium at the FN plant, production was moved to Japan for cost control reasons. Noy too long after the move, the .22 short version was discontinued. They were never very popular (think .410 Parkers) and currently bring significantly more bucks than the long rifle version. The last production of the .22 short variety from Belgium was in the late 90s for the Browning Collectors Group. I have one and it is a beautiful gun, comparable to a grade 2 in engraving and a grade 3 in wood and checking.

Thanks, Bill! I thought that I had seen .22 Short Browning autos. I'd like to have one. I do have that little lever Browning .22 which is Short, Long or Long Rifle. I guess I can just dump half a box of shorts in it and go to town!

I am a great fan of the .22, but aren't we all?

[charlie cleveland]

seen a box of 22 longs for sale lately...other than on collector ammo sites... charlie

[Bill Zachow]

All in all, .22s are my favorite guns, even more than Parkers, truth be told. Winchester made the finest, in my opinion. I have a large number of their guns and have never found one that was innaccurate. All are deadly, from the little bolt actions to their semi auto model 63, and all the pumps in between. Charlie, Winchester made the model 1890 in .22 long, but they are hard to find--.22short and .22WRF are more commob--.22 Long Rifle are scarce, too. My finest for pure accuracy is a 1935 model 52 with a Unertl 12 power scope. I have shot bugs on my target butt with it--off a bench, of course. Before I got as old as I now am, I would walk my farm with a .22 almost every day.

[charlie cleveland]

bill bet you was a crack shot .i too love the little 22 it would be hard for me to pick my favorite 22...at the moment i shoot a remington auto rifle model 550 and secound i shoot a marlin auto of some model...but i shoot my ruger bearcat the most it goes with me on the farm a lot...yep 22 s are special to me too... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

seen a box of 22 longs for sale lately...other than on collector ammo sites... charlie

Of course we used to shoot longs when we didn't have the extra dime to buy a box of LRs. I don't know if the ammo companies still make them. I think they shot the same bullet as the short, but delivered it a little quicker.

[Steve McCarty]

All in all, .22s are my favorite guns, even more than Parkers, truth be told. Winchester made the finest, in my opinion. I have a large number of their guns and have never found one that was innaccurate. All are deadly, from the little bolt actions to their semi auto model 63, and all the pumps in between. Charlie, Winchester made the model 1890 in .22 long, but they are hard to find--.22short and .22WRF are more commob--.22 Long Rifle are scarce, too. My finest for pure accuracy is a 1935 model 52 with a Unertl 12 power scope. I have shot bugs on my target butt with it--off a bench, of course. Before I got as old as I now am, I would walk my farm with a .22 almost every day.

As a gun collector I have gone through several phases. First I collected only muskets, then Civil War carbines (most stolen), a few '73's and then I hit on 22's and I must have bought a dozen. One of my faves is that little Win. model 67 single shot. You load it and have to cock the striker. Pretty bad safety; using it makes the gun less safe! But a kick to shoot and it shoots fine! The safety is - don't pull back the striker. I've got a minty 9422 and have only shot it a few times. I like the 39A best when shooting a lever .22.

Shooting rats at the dump with a .22 just may have been my favorite big game hunting of all time. Prairie dogs too. My grandson loves to shoot and is 'into' airsoft. I am looking forward to handing him a .22. Doing so allows one to kind of relive one's youth.

[Bill Zachow]

Of all the late model Winchester .22s. The 9422 was the best and off the highest quality. I have two, a .22 and a.22 magnum. The .22 is NIB, and I shoot the magnum. Got them both when an Ames Discount store in Southbridge, Mass went out of business. 1975--$100 each. My only complaint with the gun is the loading tube is a little undersize for the "holding" tube. It is easy to turn and get unlocked and slip out. I have had to retrace my farm walk more than once to find the darn thing. Still a nice gun and becoming more valuable as the years since discontinuance go by. Charlie, remember when .22 long rifle shells were less than .$50 per box and you could buy shotgun shells by the each? Time goes too fast....

[Dean Romig]

Remember when .22 long rifle shells were less than .$50 per box and you could buy shotgun shells by the each? Time goes too fast....

I do.... am I showing my age? :whistle:

[John Dallas]

Shooting bats with .22 birdshot out of a 510 bolt action Remington. Now, that was fun!

[Bill Zachow]

Did you ever hit one? I went through a box of .410 shells using a little single barrel shotgun at bats. I think i hit 3 in 25 shots. I am actually a fairly good shot but those bats were realy good at dodging!

[charlie cleveland]

i too remember the box of 22 s for 49 cents..bought many a box and plugged everything from a pebble toa minnow in the creek..never could strika a match togood withone but was death on birds withone... charlie

[Dean Romig]

When I was fifteen I used up a whole box of 20's at bats in the early evening. never touched one of them. I decided that it was a pretty wasteful endeavor and never did it again.

[Steve McCarty]

bill bet you was a crack shot .i too love the little 22 it would be hard for me to pick my favorite 22...at the moment i shoot a remington auto rifle model 550 and secound i shoot a marlin auto of some model...but i shoot my ruger bearcat the most it goes with me on the farm a lot...yep 22 s are special to me too... charlie

The day I turned 16 I bought a Ruger Bearcat. Cost was $36. It shoot where it was aimed and I learned to shoot a pistol with that little gun. I sold it and bought another that shot around corners. I hesitate to buy a new one, since they cost something like $575.

I found an NRA special Model 34 Remington at a pawn shop about 15 years ago. It had Lyman peep sights and extra fine wood. The little rifle was well used, but I love it and it is a great shooter. Has a tubular magazine, which I like. I found a regular one a few years ago and it is a grand little rifle too.

While sneaking up on 70 my bulbs are still hanging in there, so I usually avoid scoped .22's. Put a dot scope on my ancient Weatherby XXII and it's okay, but I can't warm to it.

I shot a zillion weapons of all kinds in the military, even 20mm canons from an A-4 Skyhawk, but I still get excited when I slip a magazine into a .22.

[Steve McCarty]

When I was fifteen I used up a whole box of 20's at bats in the early evening. never touched one of them. I decided that it was a pretty wasteful endeavor and never did it again.

LOL, that's funny! Did they "hear" it coming? We need more bats.

I knew a fellow who used to hunt bob white quail with a .22 rifle, shooting solids. He did pretty well at it too. We also shot cans thrown into the air. It's easy to hit a paint can, but tough to bag a frozen juice can. If you practice you can do it tho. My friend could hit a pebble... a biggish one.

In the Army for a while, during the VN War, they trained guys to shoot BB guns at BB's tossed into the air. They were trying to develop instinctive shooting. Some guys could hit a BB with a BB! I never underwent the training and I've always thought that the Marines trained shooters better than did the Army. I was in both services.

Today I shoot my 1911 and Hi Power at the 200 yd gong and hit it pretty regular. I enjoy long range pistol shooting. My shooting buddy and I have M1 Garands. We give the 500 yd gong fits.

It is kind of like the Zin of Shooting. You clear your brain of all problems and concentrate on the sights, the wind, the range, your spot weld, breathing and trigger control. Shooting is good for you. I love it.

[Dean Romig]

In my earliesd days in Vermont at the deer camp with my Dad, Uncle Jack and Hubert Simons (the owner of the camp) they were tossing soda cans up over the meadow in front of the camp and shooting a .22 rifle at them, hitting most of them. I think I was twelve or so and said I'd like to try. They passed me the rifle and a .22 Long. A can was tossed out over the meadow, I took careful aim, touched the trigger and the can went spinning wildly off its original course. Well the men seemed pretty shocked and asked me to try it again, knowing full well that I could never repeat the shot. I was passed another bullet and I tucked it in the chamber, closed the bolt and yelled "Throw it!" The can sailed out over the field and once again I took careful aim, touched the trigger just as I had done the first time and the can (amazingly) went twirling straight up then straight down. The men were dumbfounded.... How could this boy repeat that difficult shot a second time...? A while later my Dad levelled with me. They were passing me .22 Longs all the while they were using .22 birdshot :D

I still have an article that tells about the BB to BB training for the special forces in Viet Nam and the article goes on to say that another form of practice was th shoot an aspirin tossed perpendicular to the BB-gun shooter much like a clay target at station 4 on a skeet range and the shooters averaged 80% or better. The premise was that the center of any target, whether stationary of moving, is exactly the same size... infinitesimally small.

[John Dallas]

Our score on Bats was about 1 bat per box, but we figured out how to decoy them by throwing a handful of gravel in the air - the bats thought it was a swarm of bugs, and would fly towards the gravel

[Steve McCarty]

In my earliesd days in Vermont at the deer camp with my Dad, Uncle Jack and Hubert Simons (the owner of the camp) they were tossing soda cans up over the meadow in front of the camp and shooting a .22 rifle at them, hitting most of them. I think I was twelve or so and said I'd like to try. They passed me the rifle and a .22 Long. A can was tossed out over the meadow, I took careful aim, touched the trigger and the can went spinning wildly off its original course. Well the men seemed pretty shocked and asked me to try it again, knowing full well that I could never repeat the shot. I was passed another bullet and I tucked it in the chamber, closed the bolt and yelled "Throw it!" The can sailed out over the field and once again I took careful aim, touched the trigger just as I had done the first time and the can (amazingly) went twirling straight up then straight down. The men were dumbfounded.... How could this boy repeat that difficult shot a second time...? A while later my Dad levelled with me. They were passing me .22 Longs all the while they were using .22 birdshot :D

I still have an article that tells about the BB to BB training for the special forces in Viet Nam and the article goes on to say that another form of practice was th shoot an aspirin tossed perpendicular to the BB-gun shooter much like a clay target at station 4 on a skeet range and the shooters averaged 80% or better. The premise was that the center of any target, whether stationary of moving, is exactly the same size... infinitesimally small.

Now that you mention it I do recall hearing tales of guys shooting aspirin with a BB. I joined the Army Reserve in 1980 and became a drill sergeant. Most of my fellow soldiers were VN Vets, many ex-Marines. I was too. Eventually my commission came thru and I retired as a major. But some of those old soldiers had fought hard in VN and some had medals up the ying yang. Those guys were pretty crusty and I enjoyed soldiering with them. They talked about shooting aspirin. They also talked about shooting gooners with their .45s when they were being overrun. They stood back to back reaching behind them to see if the other guy was still standing and banged away. That old 1911 would knock an enemy soldier down flat. The Marines are bringing it back I believe. What's with that 9 anyway?

[Steve McCarty]

Our score on Bats was about 1 bat per box, but we figured out how to decoy them by throwing a handful of gravel in the air - the bats thought it was a swarm of bugs, and would fly towards the gravel

That's interesting. I love watching bats fly. I can only imagine what it'd be like to try to shoot one. I never tried, but if given he opportunity, of course, I would have.

[Bill Murphy]

I went through the "Quik Kill" program in Army Basic Training at Fort Bragg in 1967. It was an amazing block of instruction considering it was a one day course. I had shot aerial targets with a rifle for years before I went into the Army, so I figured I would be the star of the show. How wrong I was. Guys whom I assumed had never shot a gun before Basic Training were hitting the same thrown targets that I was. We started with 2 1/2" aluminum discs and quickly progressed to quarter sized discs. I never did well on dime sized discs, but some did moderately well at them. No one shot any aspirin sized targets. I think Lucky McDaniel describes such success in his book. The "Quik Kill" program was developed from Lucky McDaniel's methods. Small aerial targets shot with a rifle by mortals are thrown relatively straight up in a defined area. I have never seen it done with random crossing throws. I would like to see that done, however. The "Quik Kill" guns are Daisys with relatively massive stocks, no sights, and US markings. No commercial Daisy was ever an exact duplicate of the "Quik Kill" gun, which is rare on the resale market, although they do occasionally appear. They were selling for hundreds of dollars the last time I saw one offered for sale.

[Dave Noreen]

My this has wandered from the Winchester Model 1897!!

[Dean Romig]

I'll post the article tonight.

[Bill Murphy]

I think bats have a different image today. However, I understand that some guys still ground swat ducks and pheasants. I just bought a Model 121 Remington .22 shotgun. I'll let you know what it's good for. I still have a box or two of ammunition. I always wondered how well they shot with single projectile ammunition. On the 97 subject, I have a 97 Trap Gun that shoots to one side. Does anyone know how shotgun barrels are bent to correct point of aim?

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I used to squirrel hunt with an old timer who could take a sling shot and hit a soda can throw up in the air. I've seen him kill a squirrel with it too shooting ball bearings.

He was murder with his old Winchester target grade bolt action rifle. He never came into camp with a squirrel that wasn't shot somewhere in the head.

I hunted with him the last time about ten years ago. I need to call and see if he's still at it, kinda lost track of him after I moved so far north. He's over 85 now at least, was a WW2 veteran that came into it right at the end of the war.


Destry

[Bill Murphy]

There is a video out there right now that shows a slingshot master. It is worth looking at. It is a You Tube video.

[Steve McCarty]

Messing around in some drawers in my gunroom. Found these. Might take you back. I don't know how long I've had these boxes of old .22's, maybe forever. http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Gun%20Stuff/22bullets003JPG.jpg

[Steve McCarty]

Where are you going to store your firecrackers? Why in your box of .22 shorts, of course. The logic of a 12 year old. Here is a picture of a few more old boxes of .22's. There is a box of longs in there.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Gun%20Stuff/22bullets005JPG.jpg

[Steve McCarty]

My this has wandered from the Winchester Model 1897!!

You got that right! I think it is mostly my fault, but sometimes this is like sitting around the campfire BSing. I am sorry for breakiing the rules. But I have had fun! I will try to be better in the future.

And Bill, thanks for the personal recollections about the Quick Kill program. It is an interesting concept. Plinky Topperwin was famous for shooting wooden blocks tossed into the air. I wonder if the Army had read about her and decided to adopt the program. Other guys did it as well, including Ad Topperwin. (sp?) I believe he broke most of 10,000 once.

[charlie cleveland]

steve i remember that what kids gave as christmas presents them big old firecrackers..or cherry bombs...if i recall right if you could not afford a box of them fire crackers they were 2 for a nickle...now adays a man would go to jail for saleing these things... boy i sure did like lighting them things.... ps nice old 22 boxes.... i wish i had stuck some them firecrackers in something... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

steve i remember that what kids gave as christmas presents them big old firecrackers..or cherry bombs...if i recall right if you could not afford a box of them fire crackers they were 2 for a nickle...now adays a man would go to jail for saleing these things... boy i sure did like lighting them things.... ps nice old 22 boxes.... i wish i had stuck some them firecrackers in something... charlie

Charlie, I was nearly expelled from college for putting a cherry bomb in the men's room of the men's dorm with a cigarette stuck on the fuse. I placed it on top of the wall between the toilets and walked out. When that thing went off it must have deafened the guys in there! I recall sitting in my dorm room down the hall waiting for the explosion. Somehow my participation in the event got to the dean and I was in hot water. Luckily my grades were okay, or I would have been an enlisted Marine and probably not writing this.

I had a pal in the service who was raised in Cassville, MO. He said he'd buy a gross of cherry bombs each 4th of July. When they got to .25 each he couldn't afford them. He discovered he could buy dynamite for 19 cents a stick. Now in those days, prior to 1968, you could go down to the local hardware store and buy a case of dynamite. It came with fuse and blasting caps. No license or age requirement. If you wanted dynamite you just bought it. Farmers blew stumps with it.

This guy would cut the sticks into quarters and use the bits like cherry bombs. He fished with them, dropping a piece into a stream, which killed the alligator gar and carp. This fellow had lots of stories of what he did with his dynamite. You can't have fun like that anymore. Too bad. It all stopped when idiots began blowing up draft offices.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Funny to get on line and read the replies to this thread for today. Just this morning I was sorting out a big leather bag full of loose cartridges I got out of an estate. The best ones in there were 17 rounds of 40-82, some other interesting stuff.

I also moved all my various .22 .32 S&W and .38 S&W ammo into a separate drawer so I could make room for some other stuff I thought worked better in that spot. Yeah, when I kick off the estate sale people are going have a field day.....


Destry

[Grantham Forester]

Reminds me of my Granddad's farm near Mt. Vernon- we could buy DuPont graded dynamite at the local hardware, kept downstairs in big wooden boxes and the red sticks were packed in sawdust and the cover kept on the box-- We'd use waterproofed fuse and strap a stick to a cinder block, light it and drop it from the boat into the farm pond- and "haul bass" away- we had a 14 foot wooden lapped design fishing boat with a Mercury 5 hp. outboard- we'd get away from the center of the pond- a "depth charge" like in the WW2 movies about submarines- and then the stunned catfish would start emerging- nowadays, the PETA and SPCA would be all over that like ugly on a ape!:bigbye:

[Steve McCarty]

Reminds me of my Granddad's farm near Mt. Vernon- we could buy DuPont graded dynamite at the local hardware, kept downstairs in big wooden boxes and the red sticks were packed in sawdust and the cover kept on the box-- We'd use waterproofed fuse and strap a stick to a cinder block, light it and drop it from the boat into the farm pond- and "haul bass" away- we had a 14 foot wooden lapped design fishing boat with a Mercury 5 hp. outboard- we'd get away from the center of the pond- a "depth charge" like in the WW2 movies about submarines- and then the stunned catfish would start emerging- nowadays, the PETA and SPCA would be all over that like ugly on a ape!:bigbye:

That sounds like it was fun!

Yep, today you'd be thrown in prison for life.

Dupont black powder used to be so cheap that we'd buy a pound of it, punch a hole in the cap, knot a length of fuse and pass it through the hole, and replace the cap. We'd lite it and run off a bit. It didn't go BLAM but sort of WHOOOSH. We had an old M4 tank in the park. We'd place a can of BP on the seat in the turret and run of to watch the puff of white smoke that boiled out after the muffled explosion.

Then I joined the Marine Corps and got to blow up other stuff!:rotf: