20 GA "DH"

[Edward Hamm]

I did not expect to be back so soon. Some of you may recall my questions about a week ago re: 16 GA PH gun. I knew I was getting two guns from my uncle's estate, but I thought the second one was going to be a rifle...but when I got the 2nd box yesterday and opened it...WOW, another Parker Bros Shotgun. This one is a "DH" grade, 20 GA, with 28 " barrels and ejectors. SN: 157831. But after looking at the pages here, I have more questions than answers. Several marks seem to indicate possible after market work...or I'm just uneducated. Please see specifically the pics showing the barrel flats, barrels, and water table. Also, it is a single trigger, so your thoughts on this. And the marks on the rib (vented rib).
Thanks.

[Edward Hamm]

I just realized I may have reduced the quality too much on some of the pics in order to get them all through my crummy Internet Provider...please let me know if you need higher quality pics of any of these.

[Jeff Kuss]

The gun appears to have been sleeved and restocked. Looks like a good shooter. It also has an aftermarket trigger.

[Bill Murphy]

Simmons rib is a bit of a detraction.

[Brian Dudley]

Original or not, that is a nice surprise over a rifle.

Yes, the gun has been sleeved (or Monoblocked). This is evident by the line around the front of the breech. And also by the additional proof markings on the barrels and water table.
The gun has been restocked by the look of it too. The action panels should have drop points on a DH and also the checkering pattern on Forend and wrist are not correct for the grade. Also, the grip form is a bit off for a Parker original. Very nice stock though.
The incorrect forend loop also points to it not originally having a BTFE on it. Does it have a draw bolt in the front of the forend?
I am not sure what type of single trigger that is, but it is not a type that was on an original Parker.
Also, the bluing of the top lever, action screws and forend iron is not correct. All should be Color Cased.

What a nice shooter!

[Dave Noreen]

The proof marks look Italian, so the original Damascus barrels (D on the right barrel flat) were sleeved with steel tubes, and the gun also likely got its single trigger there as well, as it is not a trigger I recognize.

[Edward Hamm]

RE:
"The incorrect forend loop also points to it not originally having a BTFE on it. Does it have a draw bolt in the front of the forend?"...
What is a draw bolt?

And on a more practical note...since my guns arre insured with a "rider", is this worth covering? Any guess as to a replacement value?

[Brian Dudley]

If you look at the front of the forend. It would have a slotted scre head in the nose of it that is about 1/2" diameter. This is a long bolt that attaches to the tip of the forend iron.

[Edward Hamm]

Don't see anything that looks like that. If I'm understanding you...the forward (muzzle end) end of the fore stock is just wood.

[tom tutwiler]

Yep, Italian Proof marks. Looks like it was sent to Italy for sleeving and then reproofed. If you look up Italian proof marks it will show what load it was proofed for.

[Edward Hamm]

What info I could find on the Italian marks are that it was proofed at a company named Gardone & Brescia, with their marks for "definitive proof" and "Finish proof", but nothing about pressures, or loads or whatever. The roman numerals might indicate the barrels were made in 1960? The barrel marks look to indicate the barrels are 20 gauge and that they narrow down .5mm (.02 inch). If I'm right it looks like the gun was made into a skeet gun????

[tom tutwiler]

This might help a bit. 1 star over PSF means it is proofed to 1200KG/CM the 2 star over PSF indicate 1370kg/CM Italian changed their proof to the higher standard in 1962 I believe. What the above means is the gun was proofed at less then SAAMI load level. I almost bought a Italian Hammer gun about a year ago. It was also proofed with the single star over the PSF. I was going to use it for a turkey gun and wanted the ability to shoot standard SAAMI loads out of it and decided (based on how it was proofed) not to purchase the gun.

Here's a link on the discussion a started before on another forum. You might find it helpful. Tom

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=199239&page=1

[Edward Hamm]

Tom, thanks for the link. A lot of info in it. Also interesting to read on some of the other general shotgun groups, the changes done to this gun in general seem to be held as "good things", making a gun in general a better, or safer, gun to shoot. I assume to the Parker Brothers enthusiasts however, these changes detract from the gun...at least in $$ value. I have an inquiry in to Simmons to try and find out is since it is their vent. rib on the gun, if their company might have done some of the other work on it (or did they possibly sell their ribs to other companies)...it would seem to make sense to me to do all the barrel work...whether re-sleeve or new barrels, and the rib at the same time. On their web site, it looks like they generally did the work themselves as far as the ribs go, and at least today, they also do new barrels...and rather pricy in my mind...according to their price list, a new set of barrels, with vent rib, bluing, etc, would set you back about $2500-$3000.

Again, I'd ask if anyone would be willing to throw out a ball-park estimate of value on my gun...I guess it would be "re-placement value" for my insurance.

[Larry Stauch]

Your little Parker was made in 1911 and it had 26" Damascus steel barrels when it left the factory. It was one of 8607 grade 3 or "D" guns, in all gauges, that were made with Damascus barrels. (Although the grade section of the Parker story on page 291 says there are only 7032 with Damascus steel barrels.) However, there were only 44 20 gauge Parkers made with 26" Damascus barrels and only 129 total 20 gauge DH guns made with Damascus steel barrels.
That trigger looks just like one that was on a 1960's version of a Zoli SxS Model 145/2 that I had.
My guess is that the owner was in the military and in Europe when this sleeving and proofing was done in Italy.

That gun, had it been original would be worth around $7500-$9500, but that's gone now.

My guess is, as a shooter, it would be worth around $2000.

[Brian Dudley]

Other shotgun guys might tell you that the work done to the barrels is better overall, and a lot more would have told you that 20 or 30 years ago when that work was originally done. With the work done, the barrels could most likely handle any factory load that you wanted to put to it.
However, today the whole scare of Damascus barrels in shotgun circles is not really there. With the low pressure loads that are available, and plus additional knowledge. As a shooter, your gun is boosted in "value" due tot he barrel work. But as a collectors piece it is non-existent.
That barrel work would cost about $2 - $3k today. And there are not many doing it anymore.

[Bill Murphy]

There is no accurate figure of DHE Damascus 20s produced, but it is real small. One in high condition could bring over ten grand. We see many examples of such guns that have had their collector value lost by owners who just wanted to shoot them.

[edgarspencer]

Who really cares what it's 'worth'. Enjoy it. It's a nice little gun that your uncle would appreciate knowing it's in the hands of someone who will shoot it. Forget about all the the 'Woulda, Coulda and Shouldas out there.

[Edward Hamm]

Thanks for all the info. The only reason for wanting to know a value was for insurance. My home owners only covers my guns on a "rider", so if I want it covered I need to list a reasonable replacement value. I shot it yesterday, and it shoots nice!