Parker factory test loads?

[Robin Lewis]

I have been looking over some of my Parker letters today and notice that all the letters which include choke pattern information specifies the number of #8 shot in a 30 inch circle at 40 yards. All very interesting I guess, but it doesn't tell me the choke.

In order to convert these numbers into general choke sizes I need to know the total shot count of the shell they used so I can compute the percentage of shot in the circle. Then I can use the table at http://parkerguns.org/pages/faq/ChokeSize.htm to determine what choke it probably is.

So, two questions for anyone that may know the answer.


I have letters for both 12 & 16 gauge and they all use #8 shot for the test. Did they use #8 for tests on all the tests and on gauges?
Is there any documentation anywhere that lists the brand or type of shell Parker used to test so we might open one of each gauge and get a shot count; or is there any record of what Parker Bros. knew to be the total shot count in their test shells?

[Scott Fox]

I have a letter on a 1898 12 gauge which states 250 pellets of #7 shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards.

[charlie cleveland]

robin somebody posted a letter here at one time saying no 6 s were used at 40 yards...id almost bet they used 1 ounce loads in the 12 ga and 7/8 ounce in the 16 ga...these were the common loads of shells in the respective ga s in those years of the hammer gun..hope you find what loads parker used to proof each gauge this would be interesting especially the 8 ga proof load..i thinkyouve brought up a great question and i hope we finds some answers... charlie

[Dean Romig]

Over the years, or I should say in particular eras of Parker shotgun manufacture, different shot sizes were used in patterning along with different yardages and different diameter circles. This all can be found in The Parker Story.

[Dave Noreen]

The load a gun is targetted with and the proof load are two totally different things.

There are a couple of sets of hang-tags shown on page 520 of The Parker Story. They show that serial number 108998, a 7 pound 10 ounce, 30-inch barrel, 12-gauge, was targetted with a load of 1 1/4 ounce of #7 1/2 chilled shot, pushed by 40 grains of DuPont powder, putting 325 pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards from either barrel. A load of 1 1/4 ounce of #7 1/2 chilled shot should contain about 431 pellets. 325/431 = 75.4% or pretty damn tight!!

The hang-tag for serial number 211738, a six pound, 26-inch barrel 20-gauge shows the gun made for 2 1/2 inch shells and it was targetted with a load of 2 1/4 drams of Bulk Smokeless Powder pushing 7/8 ounce of #8 chilled shot, putting 100 pellets from the right barrel and 150 pellets from the left barrel in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. A 7/8 ounce load of #8 chilled contains about 358 pellets

[Robin Lewis]

Thanks Dave, I have been searching the Parker Story for the data Dean eluded to but have yet to find it.

Because of your reply, I now realize the obvious, that an ounce of lead shot of a particular weight has a defined approximate pellet count. And, I already have the count listed in a FAQ table about shot size.

Now, it will be an easy task to do a computer program for the FAQ page to take the information found in a Parker letter and compute the "choke size". I don't know why this was not obvious to me before, this is a real head slap moment for me! Thanks again!

[Drew Hause]

Just as a FYI- Starting in 1907, Hunter Arms catalogs included the following statement:
“All Smith Guns are bored full choke unless otherwise ordered. We can bore a gun as follows using the twelve-gauge gun as a standard distance, forty yards; circle, thirty-inch; shot, Tatham’s chilled No. 7 1/2, one and one-quarter ounces; American Association Measure, 345 pellets to the ounce or 431 to the load.”

Tatham's was the premium shot of that era, and advertised extensively in Sporting Life.

[Bill Murphy]

There were eras where the target was 45 yards from the gun and the circle was a different dimension (OK, I just checked, and it is a 24" circle). Somewhere, Parker Brothers told us how to convert this information into a percentage for 40 yards and a 30 inch circle. We discussed this information on this forum a while back. Also, 12 gauge guns were not only patterned with 1 1/8 ounce loads, but sometimes with 1 1/4 ounce loads.

[Bill Murphy]

I just went into the junk files and found early stock book entries showing some entries for 10 and 12 gauge guns that were patterned at 45 yards in a 24" circle, and 16 gauge guns that were patterned at 30 yards in a 24" circle. Now it is obvious to me that we need to have all this information from the stock books to determine how our guns were patterned and with what size shot and how much of it. Unfortunately, our stock book copies are normally cut off before the pattern information, again, depending on the era. Sometimes, the order book information gives choke or pattern information that adds to any abbreviated stock book information that our researcher may be able to decipher. To add to the confusion, although later patterns shot with 12 gauges were with #7 1/2 shot, these early patterns were shot with #8 shot, even in 10 gauge. We just can't tell the original choke of a gun unless we have more information than is usually available. I have not seen a stock book entry for eight gauge guns, so can't comment on them.

[Dave Suponski]

A couple of other things to consider....Parker would target guns with any load specified by the customer within reason. Also we know the the factory loaded their own shells as the PGCA owns one of the loading machines. Were these machines used for creating proof loads or targeting loads I don't think we know for certain.

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks, Dave, great information. Yes, order books are full of customer requests for weird patterns with weirder ammunition. It would be interesting to see if these weird requests were followed all the way to the stock book entries. Of course, we would need the assistance of the research committee to check this out.

[Chuck Bishop]

I'm going to add some extra info I found while learning to read the stock books.

Many times the order book will specify how the customer wants the barrels choked. The stock book always recorded patterning information but unfortunately it's at the far right of the page and quite often much of the information is not there, it's cut off.

What I found on the very early S/N guns (1500 to 3900 in stock book # 1) was that both 10 and 12ga guns were patterened with #8 shot, 45yds, and a 18x24 target. I don't know if the target was a rectangle or an oval but all the patterning info that is readable, all used these specs. At about S/N 3950, you start to see 18x24 along with just 24 (with a circle around it.) Shortly there after, all patterning was done for both 10 and 12ga using #8 shot in a 24" circle at 45yards. Years later, it changed to 40 yards in a 30" circle.

Sometimes in the order book the customer will specify what brand of shot to use and also the size. I haven't correlated the order book with the stock book yet.

I'll add more confusion to this topic. In the 1882 catalog, it lists "Comparative Sizes of Drop Shot" table. There were 9 different manufacturers of drop shot listed along with the number of pellets to the ounce. Tatham shot was often used by Parker, they had 399 pellets of #8 shot to the ounce. The range of all manufactures was 365 on the low end to 434 on the high end. Kind of makes figuring out your chokes difficult if you don't know who made the shot. No standards back in those days.

[George M. Purtill]

I just went into the junk files and found early stock book entries showing some entries for 10 and 12 gauge guns that were patterned at 45 yards in a 24" circle, and 16 gauge guns that were patterned at 30 yards in a 24" circle. Now it is obvious to me that we need to have all this information from the stock books to determine how our guns were patterned and with what size shot and how much of it. Unfortunately, our stock book copies are normally cut off before the pattern information, again, depending on the era. Sometimes, the order book information gives choke or pattern information that adds to any abbreviated stock book information that our researcher may be able to decipher. To add to the confusion, although later patterns shot with 12 gauges were with #7 1/2 shot, these early patterns were shot with #8 shot, even in 10 gauge. We just can't tell the original choke of a gun unless we have more information than is usually available. I have not seen a stock book entry for eight gauge guns, so can't comment on them.
Bill
have we ever seen an 8 gauge hang tag?
could someone post one?

[Jeff Kuss]

I'll try to help, or muddy up the discussion with some hang tags and tables from various parker catalogs.
Hang tags

136228 16 ga rh barrel 190 lf 190 1 oz #7 chilled tatham shot 32 grs nito powder 40 & 30"
216401 12 ga rh 320 lh 320 1 1/4 oz 7 1/2 tatham chilled 40 yrd 30"
130997 12 ga rh 250 lh 250 1 1/8 oz # 7 tatham chilled 37 gr hazards powder 40 & 30"199343 12 ga rh 230 lh 275 1 1/4 oz #7 tatham chilled # 1/8 drams nitro same
94914 16 ga rh 100 lh 185 1 oz #7 tatham chilled 30 gr Dupont same
121173 12 ga rh 125 lh 225 1 1/8 oz #7 tatham chilled 40 gr Dupont same
207094 12 ga rh 255 lh 255 1 1/8 #7 tatham chilled 3 drams bulk smokless same
232754 12 ga rh 320 lh 320 1 14 oz #7 1/2 tatham chilled 3 drams bulk smokless same

[Dean Romig]

Jeff, the last three - 121173, 207094, and 232754, don't show a shot size... is this because this important information was omitted from the hang tags?

[Jeff Kuss]

Dean,

Info there, just not typed Brain fart! I have edited the same.

[Jeff Kuss]

catalog tables

[Bill Zachow]

The hang tags are an excellent source for this type of info. I have the tag for my 1916, 12 gauge D. It reports targeted results of 230 pellets right, 275 left using 1 1/4 ounces of No. 7 Tatham chilled shot over 3 1/4 drams of "nitro powder". The order book entry specifies "RH 1/2 choke LH Full". Neat ibfo to have.

[Bill Murphy]

To the top for an April 2013 related thread

[Robin Lewis]

I have yet to find the elusive patterning info in TPS? I did re-read the old thread and the is lots of information in it which my old brain didn't remember :mad:.

I was thinking that the places where they specified the amount of shot was probably due to specific customer requests and they used a "standard" load for all other tests, but that is probably wrong. I begin to think that how they did this changed several times over the years and the necessary information required to be able to compute the choke from the test data is all contained on the hanging tag (maybe)?:banghead:

[Dean Romig]

I think you're right Robin. In essence one size does not fit all, unfortunately.

[Bill Zachow]

Just for information, my D grade was ordered February 21, 1917 and the order specified "RH 1/2 choke, LH full. The hang tag, dated March 6, 1917, shows the gun was targeted at 40 yards using nitro powder and no. 7 Tatham shot. Results were 230 pellets Right and 274 Left. Tatham's no. 7 shot had 374 pellets in the 1 1/4 ounce specified load giving approximately 60 percent right and 73 percent left. When you have all the information--order, tag, and early shotshell data, it's easy to figure out how/why Parker targeted your gun. One last point that I never noticed before--the tag states "brass shells should never be used with Nitro Powder." I think Parker was concerned that reloaders would use their volumetric black powder dippers when reloading brass shells with nitro powders.

[Bill Zachow]

Just noticed that I had given most of the choke data on my D earlier when this thread was first started. Sorry for the duplication. Bill Murphy, I am blaming you for this Jeff Kuss styled brain fart......