Restored GHE 12ga

[Matt Natoli]

Hi Folks,

I am looking for some advice and wisdom on a Parker GHE 12ga that was recently offered to me for sale. It is a 12ga GHE with a beavertail forearm and single selective trigger. The gun has been 100% restored and looks brand new. I called Turnbull and was told that there records go back to 1999 and they do not show it in there records. I also called Larry DelGrego,however they needed the name of the owner and date that it was restored to find the record. The current owner is not the same as the owner who had the restoration done so I may have to bring the gun to DelGrego to have it looked at. Well long story short, I am trying to determine what is a fair price to pay for this gun. I have never ever considered buying a restored gun before, but when I saw this gun I fell in love with it, it is simply amazing.

My question is; if DelGrego did do the restoration how does it effect the value and how do I determine what a realistic value the gun has? It is a 12ga, beavertail forearm, single trigger, 1 1/2frame, 28" bbl. serial no. 1528xx and is 100% restored condition.


I have emailed the owner to ask for a file of pics and as soon as I recieve them I can try to post a few here for your input. As I previously stated, the gun looks like a brand new gun, absoultely beautiful! This is my only pic at the present time taken from my cell phone.

Thanks in advance. I would really like to own this but am a little scared of spending the money on a restored gun

Matt

[Rick Losey]

maybe its the light, but i would like to see the contour of the frame from a better angle.

Turnbull stamped a "D" in a circle I believe on the water table on all but the earliest restores ( I have a Fox with out it - but made sure I kept the paper work)

with the way these things change hands, i am surprised DelGreco doesn't keep a serial number list, but that is entirely his choice


only a few guns in that range are in the book - if you post the whole number one of us might be able to see how it started out

in the end - most thing are worth what you are willing to pay - compare it to retored guns on the auction sites.

[Bill Murphy]

He only sent you one picture? We need to see the forend lug, the barrel legend, a clear view of the trigger, the full serial number, and a full view of the wood to determine value. It is a nice looking gun from what we can see.

[Matt Natoli]

Bill,

I only have this one pic on my cell phone and am waiting to get emailed the pics we took when the owner showed the gun to me. I hope to have the pics up later today or tomorrow for everyone's review. Thanks for the reply.

Matt

[Matt Natoli]

Just recieved a few more pics. I asked for the requested pics to be taken. As soon as I recieve them I will post them here.
Serial No. 152816
Thanks again guys for the info, boy I sure do like this gun. My wife is gonna have a fit if I end up buying this! Oh well...
Matt

[Bill Murphy]

Gun has Remington repair codes, but I don't think those colors were done at Remington. However, the trigger and forend could possibly be Remington modifications. The ejectors could be original, depending on your PGCA letter and a look at the inside of the forend. If that gun is reasonably priced and works, I would be writing a check by now.

[Brian Dudley]

Does the gun have the correct BTFE forend Loop, and the bolt in the front of the forend?

It is important to remember that most any Restored gun will not rank higher than "Very Good" condition in a typical value ranking system. So if you have a values book, use that as a guide. Anyting above that is what someone is willing to pay.

Another very important thing is to determine if the options such as BTFE, ejectors and single trigger were original options on the gun. Any BTFE should be subject to skepticism considering that it is easy enough to make one up on a standard splinter forend iron.

All things on the gun such as the wood, bluing and color case work looks top notch. The Colors are a bit bright for a Parker I think, but it was done correctly and the variation is all in the process and who is doing it.

[Dave Suponski]

That gun looks like an early Turnbull job to me.

[Mark Ouellette]

I have an A Grade Fox that was advertised as a Turnbull restoration but no records to prove so. It has very similar case colors. They are not "Foxey" but they sure are pretty!

Mark

[Angel Cruz]

It does not look like Del Greco work but a nice gun either way.

[Rick Losey]

I have an A Grade Fox that was advertised as a Turnbull restoration but no records to prove so. It has very similar case colors. They are not "Foxey" but they sure are pretty!

Mark

Mark - this is an early Turnbull Fox color job - done right a year or two after he opened the shop on route 20,

i don't think it's that bright

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg195/setterw/2012-06-08_13-52-06_442.jpg

[Brian Dudley]

Now that is nice color Rick.

[Pete Lester]

It looks to be a nice gun. The pictures are limited in the detail they provide. The checkering pattern on the forend does not look correct to me for a G grade BTFE.

My GHE Skeet.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj57/nhshotgunner/100_0462.jpg

[Daryl Corona]

I agree with Dave that it is not a Delgrago but without knowing the price I really could'nt tell you if it was a good deal or not. That gun would have to be priced in the 3-4k range to be classified as a bad deal. It is a very nice looking gun. A PGCA letter might clear some issues up. Membership and the price of a letter are well worth the costs. Welcome to the world of Parker fever.

[Bill Murphy]

We need to see the pictures we asked for. We assume you probably bought the gun based on the lack of negative feedback.

[Dean Romig]

It looks to be a nice gun. The pictures are limited in the detail they provide. The checkering pattern on the forend does not look correct to me for a G grade BTFE.

My GHE Skeet.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj57/nhshotgunner/100_0462.jpg

I agree with Pete re: the checkering pattern not being correct for a G and is more like the pattern associated with the VH or Grade-0. It must be remembered though, that while the checkering pattern of the grip area of Parker hammerless guns remained the same relative to the grade (prior to the Remington era), we have occasionally seen subtle differences in the checkering patterns of the BTFE even within guns of the same grade.

[Matt Natoli]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I am an Airline Pilot and am out of town for work until late Monday night. I have not agreed yet to purchase the gun. I have asked the seller to email me some more pics. As soon as I recieve them I will post them here. The seller is firm on a price of $4000. I have never spent this kind of money on a single gun and want to be as sure as I can about the gun before putting that much into it. The seller has agreed to hold it for me while I research the gun to determine if I feel the value is what he wants for the gun.

Thanks again for the help. I'll post the pics as soon as I can.

Matt

[Pete Lester]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I am an Airline Pilot and am out of town for work until late Monday night. I have not agreed yet to purchase the gun. I have asked the seller to email me some more pics. As soon as I recieve them I will post them here. The seller is firm on a price of $4000. I have never spent this kind of money on a single gun and want to be as sure as I can about the gun before putting that much into it. The seller has agreed to hold it for me while I research the gun to determine if I feel the value is what he wants for the gun.

Thanks again for the help. I'll post the pics as soon as I can.

Matt

$4000 will buy a very nice all orginal Parker, if it were me I would pass on this gun you are looking at.

It is hard for some people new to classic doubles to accept 80 to 120 year guns with their associated wear. It is almost an aquired taste. Save your money for a good to high condition orginal gun.

[Mark Ouellette]

I was thinking that $3k would be a good price on this restored GHE.

Rick,
Thanks! That's a good looking Sterlingworth. I agree that must have been done a long time ago... I've seen some bright Turnbull colors with receipts to prove they came from them. That was later work.

[calvin humburg]

I agree with Pete there is some nice guns out there for that price. Do you want a gun with single triger and BTFE? When it comes down to it you are the only who has to be happy. good day ch My good friend says don't buy a but gun. Hey Joe, where you going with that gun in your hand, sorry. Hey Joe,this is a really nice gun but...

[Bill Murphy]

So, our friend Calvin is a Hendrix fan! Live and learn.

[Brian Dudley]

I too was suspicious of the checkering pattern on the BTFE as Pete mentioned.
As others have stated, $4k is a steep number for a G grade in 12g. compared to what you can buy nice original ones for. If this were a 16g or 20g. it would be a different story.
Looking at it from the Book value standpoint, where a restored Gun is in the Very Good Category (even restored to new), the base book value is $3,250 and then add 35% for the Ejectors. That would put it in the $4,300 range. And I am sure the single trigger would add some sort of value in there too. So, the $4k price is still under what is considered BOOK VALUE. But it is not a Bargain Price.

[Matt Natoli]

Thanks everyone for the replies, this is the kind of information I'm looking for. As soon as I get the additional pics I requested I will post them.

As for the 'book value' what book is the standard to be used, are you guys refering to the 'Blue Boook of Guns'?

Thanks again for the help.

Matt

[Brian Dudley]

I have a couple books for values. Both of them are the same pretty much as far as the values lited. "2011 Standard Catalog of Firearms(21st Edition)" and the "2010 Guns & Prices (5th Edition)" The values I have referenced came from them.

[Matt Natoli]

B.Dudley,

Thanks for the reply. I am going to be speaking with the owner over the next few days and will report my findings to him on his price. I am still waiting for him to email me the requested pics.

Matt

[Dean Romig]

So, our friend Calvin is a Hendrix fan! Live and learn.

Very cool observation Bill.

Nice touch Calvin!

[Dean Romig]

I wonder how many of us still refer to 2010 and 2011 gun values in today's (mid-2012) market? No reflection on Brian's reference to his books, just a question of where today's values stack up to yesterday's estimates...

[Michael Murphy]

$3,000 - $3,250 would seem to be about the right price range - but if the gun makes your socks go up and down, and it looks as good in real life as the few pictures make it look, well, it's your call. It not going to be an "investment" in any case. More importantly, does it fit and can you shoot it well. In the end, that's what will matter most.

[Matt Natoli]

Ok Guys, Just recieved some more pictures of the GHE. Looks to me that this is not a factory BTFE. The lug looks like a standard lug. Also, can anyone decifer the Remington Repair codes? Thanks for all of the help.

Matt

[Matt Natoli]

Here are a few more

[Michael Murphy]

Please tell me your wearing shorts!

[Matt Natoli]

LOL... that's not me! I was thinking the same, that pic just reduced his price a few $$
Matt

[Robin Lewis]

Code indicate service on March 1936 and May 1936. They must not have done it right the first time?

[Matt Natoli]

Bindlestiff,

Thanks for the information on the repair codes.

Matt

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah, the bare hairy legs freaked me out a bit too. lol.

The forend itself is correct with the draw bolt in the end, but the Forend loop is not correct for BTFE. However, weren't earlier BTFE guns of lower grades bade with the standard forend loop for a while before they went to the 1pc. loop on all grades?

[Dean Romig]

The gun in question is a 1908 or '09 gun. When was the reinforced forend lug introduced?

[Matt Natoli]

The gun in question is a 1908 or '09 gun. When was the reinforced forend lug introduced?

I am wondering the same. I thought it was a 1910 gun, 152816 shows 1910. Does anyone know when the reinforced lug was introduced?

Matt

[Dean Romig]

Sorry, I was just shooting from the hip on the year of manufacture.

[Chuck Bishop]

Dean, that's your problem, you'd hit more if you would shoulder the gun:rotf:

The gun in question was ordered in Jan of 1910. The reinforced lug was introduced about 1918 according to TPS.

[Matt Natoli]

Pa SxS,

Thanks for that bit of information and the other as well. So, would it be possible that this is a factory BTFE?

I'm also a little concerned that the order book shows it a GH and not a GHE, it does have ejectors. I see that ejectors were a $25 option. Again, this is all new to me, I'm wondering if the ejectors were later added to this gun or did they come on it from the start as an option. The gun was sent to Remington in March and then in May of 1936 for some type of work. Did Remington offer adding ejectors in 1936? Maybe that was done and also the single triggeradded. I'm waiting to hear from Doug Turnbull to see if he did the restoration.

I also was told the gun has spent all of its life in the Syracuse area. We are close to Illion so it would not have been too far a trip to Remington in 1936 to have to work performed.

This is all a learning experience and I have to say I have never come in contact with a nicer group of gun guys. Thanks eveyone for your help in learning about 152816. I hope I can come to an agreement with the owner on price and purchase this gun. I look forward to joining you guys in the PGCA and the pride in owning a nice Parker.

Matt

[Dean Romig]

Matt, I hope you are able to get a Parker shotgun that suits you, be it this one or another.
When you do, please join the Parker Gun Collectors Association. Annual membership is $40 and letters for members are $40 each. Unfortunately, a letter for a non-member is $100.

[Matt Natoli]

Thanks Dean. I do plan on joining, and I hope I can work out an acceptable price on this particular gun.

Matt

[Chuck Bishop]

Matt,

All the extra's could have been done by Remington when it was returned for service however no records exist to show what exactly was done. They had the ability to do the ejectors and single trigger.

The question remains as to why the reinforced lug was not changed if Remington did the beavertail. All Parker wood had the S/N stamped into the wood when made in Meriden. I don't know if this practice was also done at Remington but you may want to separate the beavertail wood from the metal and look for a S/N stamped in the wood. I don't know how difficult this is.

[Matt Natoli]

Good information. Thanks. I will see if the owner will allow me to do that. I just talked Doug Turnbull and sent him 12 pictures of the gun to see if he thinks he did the restoration, if need be I will bring the gun to his shop for him to see it in person.

When I get home I'll check the forearm wood for the serial number.

Matt

[Brian Dudley]

The Ejectors could have been added at a later date by Parker Under a repair order. And even the BTFE could have been done as well. A letter might show this work. I find it hard to believe that they would have changed out the forend loop if a BTFE were added. That would be a bit of a task.

Either way, that forend iron is correct for a BTFE. I would think that if that forend wood were added by someone other than Parker/Remington, they would have just used the original splinter forend Iron.

I think info regarding those repair codes would shed some more light on this.

[Dean Romig]

I would be very surprised to learn Parker Bros. or Remington would have added a BTFE without changing the forend lug to the reinforced style.

[Chuck Bishop]

I'll say it again, the PGCA has no records of what Remington repairs were done to Parkers when sent to them. All we can tell you was the month and year it was returned.

Perhaps somewhere in the bowels of Remington there are records of what was done but the PGCA doesn't have that information.

[Bill Murphy]

Order a PGCA letter and maybe some of these questions could be answered. I'm sure the researcher has looked up this gun and is just waiting for the check to arrive so he can tell you what he already knows. The ejectors either are or aren't original equipment and the PGCA letter may tell you. The PGCA letter may also tell you whether some of the modifications on the gun were performed at Parker Brothers, before 1919.

[Matt Natoli]

New Update.

I sent 12 pics to Turnbull and they do not think they did the restoration. I am going to contact Lefever Arms and DelGrego, however I'm fairly certain this was not restored by DelGrego do to the colors. I spoke with the previous owner and was told his grandfather had the gun restored approximately 20 years ago and it was brought to the shop and not shipped out for the restoration.

So, my question now is, what does this all mean to a fair price, the current status is as follows:

1910 GH 12ga
Ejectors added at some time, most likely in 1936, gun was returned to Remington in March and May of 1936 but can't prove this
Beavertail Forearm has serial no. 152816 under the forearm iron stamped in the wood, correct BTFE iron with 152816 stamped on it, but standard forearm lug.
Single trigger added, possibly in 1936 when repaired by Remington.
28" Parker Special Steel BBLs choked ic/mod which is correct from order book, which is what the gun has
100% restoration completed but can not prove who did the restoration.

What would be a fair price to offer the owner for this gun? Am I off by offering $2550? I don't want to insult the owner but my thoughts are:

2010-11 Book Value: $3250 very good condition
35% addition for ejectors =$1137.50
Total $4387.50
I have been told a full restoration decreases the value by 50% but if preformed by a known restorer 35%, so that would bring the gun down to either $2193 or $2850, so if I met the guy in the middle of these figures ($2521.50) am I thinking reasonably? Again, I don't want to insult him but at the same time I don't want to over pay for this gun.

Thanks to all for the information on this gun. I'll let eveyone know if I end up making the deal and post some pics it that does occur.

Greatfull for your help.

Matt

[Bill Murphy]

Have we seen the pictures that tell us that this is a Parker trigger? Oh, just found the picture on page 3. Parker trigger. Do we know that the end of the barrels has a blank space in the matting? Finally, maybe, the bore and choke dimensions. When the PGCA letter is posted, we can get serious about value. I see in a recent post that you have gotten some info from our researcher. Regardless of whether his information shows an ejector installation as repair work or not, the ejectors would only have been installed by Parker Brothers, Remington, or Del Grego, and not likely by Del Grego. They didn't like doing the conversion and charged a lot for it. No one else is really qualified to install the Parker ejector system, so your ejectors should be considered "factory".

[Matt Natoli]

Just spoke with the owner and it looks like I can own this gun if I come up and additional $450 to my offer, so $3000 is his lowest price he will take. He claims a large shotgun dealer has contacted him and has offered him a lot more than my offer but is willing to sell it to me for $3000.

Thoughts? I am leaning to making the deal. I really don't want to lose it over $450.

I told him I wanted to see it one more time, so I am going to meet him on Thursday.

If all goes as planned I'll be posting some pics Thursday afternoon.

Matt

[Brian Dudley]

I think that you will find several of us that said previously that $3,000 was a seemingly fair price for the gun. Not bad from the starting point of $4k.

I wouldn't believe when someone says that they are turning down a better buy to sell to you. If they have that good of an offer, they would take it. And besides, I can't see a dealer paying that much for the gun. Would not leave very much room for profit on his end.

[Matt Natoli]

I think that you will find several of us that said previously that $3,000 was a seemingly fair price for the gun. Not bad from the starting point of $4k.

I wouldn't believe when someone says that they are turning down a better buy to sell to you. If they have that good of an offer, they would take it. And besides, I can't see a dealer paying that much for the gun. Would not leave very much room for profit on his end.

I agree, the story was that Elmira Arms was going to be bring the gun to the Tulsa Show this weekend.

I just told the owner if he agrees to let me bring the gun to Larry DelGrego and having it looked at, that if all checks out, I will agree to his price and buy the gun. Still waiting for his reply.

Matt

[Matt Natoli]

Update,

I recieved the go-ahead to have DelGrego check the gun out for me. I hope to bring it to Ilion next week. If all goes well, I will own this gun. I'll report back next week with my findings from Larry.

Thanks to everyone for your help in my research on this gun.

Matt