grade 5 trojan?

[mearl mace]

I have a trojan with a letter, the engraving and stock is identical to the bhe pictured on page 94 in the shooting flying and american experience book the stock also has a silver inlay however the letter i have on it just tells the date it was shipped etc. it doesn't mention the grade I took it to the bass pro fine gun room and the man said it was the nicest parker trojan he had ever seen and assured me he's seen many so, i took it to the fine gun show in allentown pa and 2 had 2 other dealers that had parkers for sale look at it and they said the same thing, i bought 4 parkers 7 years ago and now just started to really get into them, what i'm wondering is why the letter doesn't mention the engraving and the fancy wood? and also the 3 of them appraised it at $9,000 is this in the ballpark or a little too high the guin is like new but the receiver was reblued?

[Chuck Bishop]

All the engraving and stock work would be after market upgrades. There was no such thing as a B grade Trojan or any other grade Trojan. Trojan is the grade.

All Parker receivers regardless of model were color case hardened, never blued.

I suggest you study this web site to learn more about Parker shotguns and how to tell what is original and what is not. It's a learning experience but well worth it on future purchases. The experts you asked for advice weren't very expert!

[Rick Losey]

the letter i have on it just tells the date it was shipped etc. it doesn't mention the grade

Trojan is the grade - pictures would be nice to see, but as stated above, sounds like aftermarket upgrading.

There was another highly upgraded Trojan dicussed just a few weeks ago

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6824

[mearl mace]

i looked up the grades in the forum and it is grade 5 engraving exactly like the pics of the grade 5 guns, like i said it is exactly like the gun pictured in the book i compared my gun with it with a magnifying glass it has parker bros engraved on it and the 3 people that i had look at it said it was parker engraving from the factory

[Chuck Bishop]

Mearl,

Go to the home page, then go to the Parker Grades link. Find the Trojan grade and look at the high quality pictures.

This is what your Trojan should look like. No exceptions except that what you are looking at is a very high conditioned gun. Any deviation from what you see is aftermarket. You may wish to not believe it but that's the truth.

[mearl mace]

ok first i never said i was an expert thats why i'm asking questions, i went to the grading section and the gun is exactly like the grade 5's a twin I never said it was a grade 5 gun just that the engraving is and the stock, and the people that looked at it said the receiver was reblued its not case colored

[Dave Purnell]

We really need to see pictures of your gun. It sounds like you have a B grade Parker. It also sounds like someone told you that every Parker is known as a Trojan. As was stated in an earlier post, Trojan is the name of the lowest grade gun that Parker Brothers manufactured. What type of steel is stamped on the top rib of the gun?

Dave

[mearl mace]

I know its a trojan the barrels are marked trojan and the letter says trojan like i said the gun looks exactly like the bhe on page 94 in the shooting flying experience book they are identical i compared them with my magnifying glass, could the gun have been sent back in later to beeingraved? I have 3 other parkers a gh a vh and a sbt and i have a letter here from a Bill Mullins who it seems went to see my uncles guns who passed away and had a huge collection of guns i was with him alot at guns shows etc but was into his german doubles and drillings and not the parkers so much but i ended up inheriting one and bought the other 3 he still has a 28 gauge that I can't afford, anyhow i need someone in the harrisburg pa area to look at my guns and tell me exactly what they are I know what the gh and and sbt are but the vh is not normal it belonged to a pro baseball player it has barrel guards inlayed in gold and a gold diamond on the floorplate with added ingraving which is poor the sides are that of a ah grade it has a monte carlo stock with a gold cap with name on it and the trigger gaurd has him name ingraved in gold my original question was basically why is this trojan engraved and have the fancy wood etc. all the trojans ive seen were just plain if it was special ordered why didn't the letter say that? just a little confused is all but thanks for the info

[mearl mace]

Mearl,

Go to the home page, then go to the Parker Grades link. Find the Trojan grade and look at the high quality pictures.

This is what your Trojan should look like. No exceptions except that what you are looking at is a very high conditioned gun. Any deviation from what you see is aftermarket. You may wish to not believe it but that's the truth.

ok i did that and the gun is identical to the grade 5 guns pictured

[mearl mace]

ok i did that and the gun is identical to the grade 5 guns pictured

Cderlak huck i did what you told me to do i went into the grading pics the gun doesn't look like any of the trojans it looks exactly like the bh pictured on the grade 5 guns but the barrels are marked trojan steel and the letter i have says trojan shipped in 1921 it really is a twin to the bh pictured on page 94 in the shooting flying experience book by ed muderlak I will try to get some pictures I'm not sure my camera is good enough for the details though but thanks for your inpu,t Mearl

[mearl mace]

We really need to see pictures of your gun. It sounds like you have a B grade Parker. It also sounds like someone told you that every Parker is known as a Trojan. As was stated in an earlier post, Trojan is the name of the lowest grade gun that Parker Brothers manufactured. What type of steel is stamped on the top rib of the gun?

Dave

dave i know all parkers are not trojans i have a gh and vh and a sbt i just thought maybe they coud ordered the way mine is but the letter didn't say it was, thanks Mearl

[mearl mace]

could be ordered.......,(first day with my new fingers lol)

[Bruce Day]

Those who want to know about Parker shotguns are recommended to buy and read The Parker Story.

Here are several photos. The first set are of original Parker Trojan grade ( OV) guns. The second set is of a Parker Trojan aftermarket engraved and re-stocked by Dick Washburn, a master engraver from Duluth, Minnesota now in his 80's.

[Rick Losey]

No one is going to be able to give a better answer than they already have without clear pictures, please post close up views of all sides of the box (action) certainly the watertable and all of its markings, and views of the barrels and the stock.

Since the barrel marking say Trojan, does the serial number match the rest of the gun?

[charlie cleveland]

smarty mouse if youre for sure its a trogan grade gun you have got the following two things....either you have a set of trogan barrels fitted to a b grade frame orsomeone has turned this trogan grade gun into what ever they wanted it to be...if some one has turned your true grade trogan into what it is now look at it this way you now have the fun on figuring out who done the nice work on this trogan....if its a true trogan with all this fine up graded work to a b grade in my opinion you are truly lucky to have found it... charlie

[mearl mace]

smarty mouse if youre for sure its a trogan grade gun you have got the following two things....either you have a set of trogan barrels fitted to a b grade frame orsomeone has turned this trogan grade gun into what ever they wanted it to be...if some one has turned your true grade trogan into what it is now look at it this way you now have the fun on figuring out who done the nice work on this trogan....if its a true trogan with all this fine up graded work to a b grade in my opinion you are truly lucky to have found it... charlie

Charlie, all the numbers match and the barrels are marked trojan I agree with you it looks identical to the bh on page 94 in the shooting flying book i even compared the 2 guns with a magnifying glass however the letter says serial no. 196497 shipped dec 1921 trojan 12 guage pistol grip then mentions length drop at heel and weight and pellet pattern so, I need somebody that really knows these guns to look at it like i said the 3 guys that deal in parkers told me it was factory engraved plus i showed it to an engraver who said it was also? I will try to get pics but must leave now for work and won't be home till the weekend but thank you for the help, Mearl

[mearl mace]

No one is going to be able to give a better answer than they already have without clear pictures, please post close up views of all sides of the box (action) certainly the watertable and all of its markings, and views of the barrels and the stock.

Since the barrel marking say Trojan, does the serial number match the rest of the gun?

the numbers all match and the barrel says trojan I will try to get pics this weekend i must leave now for work but the pics will look exactly like the bh on page on page 94 in the shooting flying book looks like the same gun oh well should be fun trying to figure it out gives you guys something to figure out I'm lost thanks Mearl

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Mearl,

PGCA members provided you sound advice and shared their knowledge. You may in fact have a Trojan that was returned to the factory and "upgraded". If that could be proven via a repair record you would indeed have a valuable gun! Without proof a serious collector would not pay for more than your gun is, a Trojan that has been nicely upgraded. Unfortunately, upgrades are rarely worth the money spent on upgrading them.

Those gentlemen from Bass Pro, the engraver, and others who gave you their assessment of your Parker MAY be knowledgeable of this subject. The PGCA members who take their time to share their knowledge and wisdom toward Parkers ARE very knowledgeable. I have learned to strongly consider their advice. Or, you could send your gun to DelGrego, Brad Bachelder, or other noted Parker gunsmiths and pay for their time to access your Parker.

Please try to provide high resolution photos and post for all to see.

PS: I own a AH “upgrade” that many noted PGCA members swear is a AH rather than an upgraded GH. http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=294
Without proof it is a wonderful upgrade that cost me 1/3 what a documented AH would have.

Mark

[mearl mace]

thank you very much! i will get pics this weekend for starters and go from there thanks again Mearl

[Larry Mason]

Mearl,
Call Heidi at the Double Gun Journal (800-447-1658) and order "The Parker Story" as the gentleman who have responded to your post have suggested. My "blemished" set has been, along with
the PGCA members, an invaluable wealth of information.
Looking foreword to the pics.

Larry

[Chuck Bishop]

Mearl,

I live in Harrisburg and I'd be more than happy to look at your Parker.

Send me a PM or e-mail at bishop474(insert @ sign)comcast.net. and we'll make contact.

I'll give it my best shot!

Chuck Bishop

[Brian Dudley]

Most likely the gun is either an ungrade or the barrels have been replaced with a set of Trojan barrels. I will also request pics to be posted.

[Paul Ehlers]

Didn't Frank Pachmayr do several big time upgrades using a Trojan as the base platform?

If I remember correctly he did several of these for different raffle/auction guns for fund raisers for different oganizations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some of these he even re-profiled the Trojan action to look like a graded Parker.

Could this be one of the Pachmayr up-graded Trojans??

Just think'in

[Harry Collins]

I would like to see pictures of your Parker. I have a number of higher grade Parkers that had Damascus barrels that were sent to Parker Bros and returned with Vulcan barrels. Could your Parker have been fitted with Trojan barrels? Sure....

[Dean Romig]

It would not have been cost-effective to have fit the gun with Trojan Barrels when the rounded rib extension would not have fit the recess in a BH frame for a doll's head extension, thereby necessitating the replacement of the extension piece as well. A replacement set of Vulcan Steel barrels would have made a whole lot more sense.

[Chuck Bishop]

The Serialization book lists it as a Trojan and Mearl indicates that the research letter also lists it as a Trojan. The question then is whether or not the frame was reshaped to resemble a B grade frame and engraved in a B style or just left as a Trojan style frame. I just doubt that someone would return a Trojan back to the factory for added engraving and fancier wood. I guess if the engraving looks like factory work, it could have been done by Runge.

Hopefully Mearl will contact me soon and we'll have a better idea what it is.

[Brian Dudley]

There are a couple of higher grade parkers on GB right now that fitted with Trojan barrels.

[edgarspencer]

I just doubt that someone would return a Trojan back to the factory for added engraving and fancier wood.

More to the point, I seriously doubt the factory would have even accepted an order to upgrade a Trojan in order to make it "look like a B grade". I question the logic, or thought process behind trying to make a Trojan frame into a graded frame when there are so many V grade guns available, where it already has the physical dimensions of everything on up to whatever you want to make it into.

[Rick Losey]

There are a couple of higher grade parkers on GB right now that fitted with Trojan barrels.

But i wonder if the fitting was done by Parker/Remington - and or by another souce.

For Parker -with vulcan barrel available it doesn't make sense

For another gunsmith who only has the trojan tubes at hand, it certainly could be done.

[Bruce Day]

In the Dick Washburn example shown above, he related that he did it to demonstrate his abilities. That gun still has the non dolls head rib extension which is received into a slot in the action frame. Its not unusual that engravers take on a Trojan to showcase their talents, but certainly trying to do the frame sculpting, bolster ribs, and complex engraving is a difficult task made more difficult unless a V grade is used.

But I suppose we could say that the Washburn gun is an A-1 Special Trojan and the Mace gun is a B grade Trojan ! Now where do I find that in the Parker Serialization and Identification Book.......

Mearl, Chuck Bishop knows his Parkers and taking him up on his offer could be enlightening.

[mearl mace]

In the Dick Washburn example shown above, he related that he did it to demonstrate his abilities. That gun still has the non dolls head rib extension which is received into a slot in the action frame. Its not unusual that engravers take on a Trojan to showcase their talents, but certainly trying to do the frame sculpting, bolster ribs, and complex engraving is a difficult task made more difficult unless a V grade is used.

But I suppose we could say that the Washburn gun is an A-1 Special Trojan and the Mace gun is a B grade Trojan ! Now where do I find that in the Parker Serialization and Identification Book.......

Mearl, Chuck Bishop knows his Parkers and taking him up on his offer could be enlightening.

I emailed him this morning and am waiting for his call back I had equipment issues and I'm home now so hopefully we will get together soon and find out what I have

[Chuck Bishop]

Mearl,

I replied to your e-mail this morning. I just tried your number and it dumped me into your voice mail. E-mail and message left to you has my cell #.

Chuck

[Dean Romig]

Well.....??

[Chuck Bishop]

Keep your pants on Dean:shock: I've made contact with Mearl and we'll be meeting this weekend. Stay tuned for further updates!

[Dean Romig]

Along with your determination of exactly what the gun is, please post some pictures of it... we're all looking forward to your findings Chuck.

Don't worry about the pants - just bought a new set of camo braces for turkey hunting and I'll try 'em out here :rotf:

[ken wight]

Not suggesting that your gun is one of these, but theres a very interesting artical in The Shooting Sportsman Sept/ October 2011 issue titled " The man who made Parkers " This very skilled individual would take a lower grade gun re-engrave and dress up to a higer grade gun.
Even though they may not be origional I would love to own one.

[Bill Murphy]

Oh, wow, another reference to the "article". I absolutely love that article.

[mearl mace]

Not suggesting that your gun is one of these, but theres a very interesting artical in The Shooting Sportsman Sept/ October 2011 issue titled " The man who made Parkers " This very skilled individual would take a lower grade gun re-engrave and dress up to a higer grade gun.
Even though they may not be origional I would love to own one.

chuck posted the pictures under trojan grade 5 update, thanks for the info now how do i get a copy of the book? I really would like to know what i have etc. you can email me at smatymouse@hotmail.com perhaps i can buy it off you or just look at it and send it back, thanks Mearl

[Rich Anderson]

I would also like to see the pictures. I'm curious as to the shape of the frame, if it was reshaped or not.

[edgarspencer]

Rich, the pics are in another thread. The chain engraving doesn't look anything like any Parker, and they don't match, action to barrels. Different style on the barrels, which is closer to correct, but not quite. The reshaping of the side of the action was pretty good, but not the bottom.

[mearl mace]

chuck posted the pictures under trojan grade 5 update, thanks for the info now how do i get a copy of the book? I really would like to know what i have etc. you can email me at smatymouse@hotmail.com perhaps i can buy it off you or just look at it and send it back, thanks Mearl

i got a copy of the book, very interesting article and perhaps he did do the gun, but i spoke with Larry Delgrego and I'm taking the 2 guns to him to look at he's certain runge didn't engrave it but said an apprentice or a very good engraver could duplicate the b grade engraving he said only a a1 can't be duplicated so hes going to look at them and tell me what he thinks and tell me what to sell them for if i ever want to sell them he said don't sell them online or i will surely be ripped off