CANDID OPINIONS PLEASE ON THIS GH GUN

[Bob Jurewicz]

I just listed a GH Parker on GI item #100247262. The gun's # is 83043 it has 27" barrels and round knob stock. Serialization Book says Capped Pistol and 30". I pulled the trigger guard and the original factory stamped number is present. The barrels have the appropriate band at the muzzle and the end looks uncut and original with barrels touching.
Please look at the listing and pictures and give me your opinion on originality.
I know the can of worms I'm opening. I'm a big boy and can take it!!!!

http://www.gunsinternational.com/PARKER-GH-12-GA-MADE-1895.cfm?gun_id=100247262

[Mike Shepherd]

In regard to barrel length; I might be suspicious of the odd length of 27", the fact that the guns shows in the Parker serialization as 30". I suppose the muzzle end of the top rib could be TIG welded and then dressed down to show the band. The convergence of the barrels could be changed, the ribs could be relayed, and keels soldered in. If the gun were a $30,000 AAH it seems reasonable someone would have spent all that money to fake it. But on a $1200 GH it doesn't seem to make sense.

Is there a Parker letter?

Best,

Mike

[Bill Murphy]

Before I advertised a gun like that for sale, I would have a $40 PGCA letter in hand in case the stock and barrel length were original. The rib end looks faked up and the stock would be suspect if someone took the time to fake up the rib end. The stock doesn't match the SB and touching muzzles mean nothing. However, a letter may prove both the stock and the barrels to be products of the factory. I personally think the whole gun is suspect and needs a letter. Nice gun, though, and the price is right. By the way, how is the "little gun" doing? I hope you keep it indoors at night.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Thanks Mike and Bill.
This may be fun to hear all opinions.
I think its all fake too.
Bob Jurewicz

[Justin Julian]

Bob,

You are being too hard on your gun...its only a "fake" if its misrepresented as an original.

I too agree that the stock is not original and the barrels probably cut, but it looks like a great shooter and its priced as a shooter, so there's nothing to apologize for. Since its most likely not original, what a great candidate for new case colors to match that bright stock. My one real big concern is the barrel wall thickness of the upper right tube....it looks thinner than a sheet of paper at that portion of the muzzle. Have you measured its thickness? I wonder whether the barrels were cut due to a bad dent at the muzzle that was then honed, leaving the right muzzle wall noticeably thinned.

[Dave Suponski]

The barrel weight stamp seems a little heavy for a 27" gun. No?

[Pete Lester]

This post is not considered a gun for sale ad???

[Bob Jurewicz]

Ruff,
That barrel is actually .028" at the point you refer.
And, JB, I don't need to sell guns on this site and did not intend it as such.
Bob Jurewicz

[Pete Lester]

Ruff,
That barrel is actually .028" at the point you refer.
And, JB, I don't need to sell guns on this site and did not intend it as such.
Bob Jurewicz

It's not personal. It's a legitimate question, what are the rules when it comes to posting links to guns one has for sale on other web sites? I thought that was verbotten. There have been a couple of recent incidents where we could figure out the gun pictured by the owner was for sale on GB. Those turned out to be issues with the moderators, perhaps this one is OK? Clarity would be good, and I personnally don't mind seeing the adds but such rules should be applied evenly.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Pete,
Being a member I would have the right to post a "for sale" in that forum if I wished.. My intent was to get opinions from the experts on a gun I find very interesting and thought others on this board may also. Linking to the GI saved me tons of picture posting time.. I have never seen shortened Parker barrels look so good and original.
Bob Jurewicz

[Pete Lester]

Pete,
Being a member I would have the right to post a "for sale" in that forum if I wished.. My intent was to get opinions from the experts on a gun I find very interesting and thought others on this board may also. Linking to the GI saved me tons of picture posting time.. I have never seen shortened Parker barrels look so good and original.
Bob Jurewicz

Bob I agree with your intent and I personnally don't mind being led to something for sale. I can't find the rules on here but I went back to the last post that was problematic. Seems technically when there is a link to a gun for sale it's supposed to be posted in the members only forum for guns for sale because this forum is open to the public. I am sure when JD comes along he will just move it to that forum and it's not a big deal.

On to the gun. Parker I believe did trim some barrels perhaps a letter would tell you they did this one. There are and have been many talented people to work on them. Many are butchered but this one was not.

[Angel Cruz]

Man that 's a nice piece of wood!! If it were a 16ga I would jump on it in a second. I know didley when it comes to Parker but you would think there would be a slight gap between the bbls if 3" were missing.

[mike covington]

Bob, how long are the chokes?

Mike

[Bob Jurewicz]

Mike,
I will measure both. I know the right is about 1/2"(correcting).
Measured both. They both start to taper about 3" from the muzzle. The right taper is so slight it is hard to notice that is why I first answered 1/2".
Bob Jurewicz

[John Liles]

If the choke length measurement is only 1/2", probably a pretty safe bet that they've been bobbed. The good thing is that there is at least some choke.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Both start about 3" from muzzle. I corrected my previous post after I measured
Bob Jurewicz

[Bob Jurewicz]

For me this thread has resulted in giving this gun alot of my attention and I have learned a lot about it. I'm beginning to think it may be legit. Bill's advice about a letter is very appropriate.
Thank you all who participated on the board and by PM!!!!!
Bob Jurewicz

[Mike Shepherd]

Both start about 3" from muzzle.

I say the barrels haven't been cut. Now are they the original barrels? Does the serial number on the barrel flats look like it was made with the same dies that were used on the watertable? Parker letter might be a lot of fun for $40. You might be selling a better gun than you thought.

:corn:

[Bob Jurewicz]

Mike,
Numbers and fonts match!
Bob Jurewicz

[Steve Huffman]

I have one question Bob you posted that you think this gun is a fake so why dont you mention that in your description of the gun on GI ? You also might want to edit your min. barrel wall thickness in the add.

[Bill Murphy]

Bob probably started this thread to flush me out. He knew I couldn't resist. The Lovely Linda owns a DHE 26" gun with touching tubes at the muzzle that was originally a 30" gun. That particular gun has taught me to ignore touching tubes as a sign of originality. We buy letters, measure bores and chokes, and look at rib ends with lots of skepticism and high magnification. I said I thought it was a great gun, but not original. The price reflects that. However, as I said in my first post, I think the rib end looks terrible, at least in the pictures.

[Bob Jurewicz]

winplumber,
I have always considered the standards for MWT to be measurements in the barrel range of 11" to 16" from the barrel breach. I have always considered barrel thilckness at the choke area irrelavant since pressure at that point is insignificant.
AM I WRONG??
Oh, and I'm not going to say it's a fake for the same reason I'm not going to say it is original; that's an opinion not a fact.
Bob Jurewicz

[Bill Murphy]

Come on, Bob, order that letter. This gun could easily have gone back to the factory for a trim. Of course, someone will probably buy it before the letter gets to you. Again, nice gun.

[Bob Jurewicz]

I am going to hold or pull the gun from GI and order a letter!!!!!!
Thank you all!!
I will report back when I receive it.
Bob Jurewicz

[Mike Shepherd]

The 3" long chokes are hard to explain. Of course I don't know where Bob measured bore diameters but the ones he posted look to me to be original. Could the barrels be jug choked? What is the diameter of the bore 3-1/2" from the muzzle?

Minimum wall thickness for me means wherever it occurs. While a barrel with .020" MWT 6" from muzzle may not burst when shot if it gets dented there I have been told that there may not be enough metal left to do a proper repair. Frequently I find thin spots where dents have been repaired, usually on the muzzle half of the barrel. Anyway I check the wall thicknesses for the entire barrel length. I also check chamber wall thicknesses at the muzzle end of the chambers.

Minimum wall thickness is not just about safely holding pressure but also about repairablity in the event of a dent.

Best,

Mike

[Mike Shepherd]

Bob would you mind measuring and posting the bore diameters at the muzzle, at three inches from the muzzle, and 3-1/2" from the muzzle. That will tell us if it is jug choked.

Thanks!

Mike

[Bob Jurewicz]

Mike,
It is not jug choked!!
I sent for the letter yesterday so we will know whatever it is soon.
Bob Jurewicz

[Bob Jurewicz]

OK. I received the "letter". It states the 27" barrels were added in 1910 and they were choked Cyl/Mod just as they currently are.
I will add a copy of the letter as soon as the current T strorm lets up so I can get it to Photobucket.
Wow!!!!!!!!
Bob Jurewicz
I just can't get a copy of this letter here. It is not the T storm. Photobucket will not accept it.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Bobguns/83043002.jpg

Now: does anyone have the original 30" barrels?????

[Bill Murphy]

Bob, I told you I liked that gun. Now do you believe me? Great gun.

[Mike Shepherd]

Cool Bob!

Fun thread - thanks for starting it.

Best,

Mike

[Greg Baehman]

What's the explanation on the grip, altered?

[Bob Jurewicz]

Greg,
Without question not what contained in letter. But, it is numbered to the gun under the trigger guard in "Parker Style".
Bob Jurewicz

[Bob Jurewicz]

Other projects cause me to put this gun back on the market.
Bob Jurewicz

[Richard Flanders]

What a nice gun Bob! Great dimensions for most folks, perfect upland chokes, 1-1/2 frame so light but not too light, and stunning wood and reasonably priced. If I were short a "shorter" bbled gun I'd be all over it. What a beauty.

[Todd Schrock]

Interesting info Bob. Thanks for sharing!

Todd

[ed good]

bob: nice gun...

[Forrest Grilley]

At the risk of taking this thread off course. I noticed in the letter it was stated that the original barrels were "RE-BROWNED". Was it common for the Parker factory to describe their blackening/blueing procedure as "browning"?

[Rick Losey]

At the risk of taking this thread off course. I noticed in the letter it was stated that the original barrels were "RE-BROWNED". Was it common for the Parker factory to describe their blackening/blueing procedure as "browning"?

that is the phrase used in the letter for my DH when it went back to Parker in 1894. I expect it was only used when referring to damascus

[Bob Brown]

Forrest, I have a 0 grade hammer gun made in 1894 with laminated barrels that the letter said was sent back for re-browning of the barrels. I think the letter said it went back in 1901 so they used that name for it at least that time period.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Rebrowned is the term used on my DHE 16 (1905) when it was returned to the factory in 1910, Titanic steel , not damascus.