Parker Frame weight

[fritz dornan]

Hello Gents,
I have a few questions about frame weight on Parkers 12 ga. Shotguns and the relative number of guns made on each size. How much do the 1, 1 ½ and, 2, number 12 ga. frames weigh? Was there a 2 ½ frame made for 12 ga?. The #2 was the most common and I have seen a few #1 and 1 1/2 12 ga. frames but have never seen a # 3, but I think they were made. Has there been records kept that would tell how many 12 gauge Parkers were many on each frame size? To me there is a big difference in the “Feel” of a #1 12 ga. And a #2 12 ga but I have never been in a position to weigh them to come up with the actual weight. (as of now I do not own any Parkers but I plan to remedy that hear very soon)

Thanks for any information you can come up with,
Fritz Dornan

[Dave Noreen]

Very seldom, if ever, was frame size recorded in the Parker Bros. production records. One can't even make a good guess by looking at the weights of the guns. As a case in point, my Grandfathers 1890 vintage 12-gauge PH-Grade was built on a 3-frame, but has barrels that swamp very quickly and weighs 8 pounds 8 ounces. I have an 1889 vintage GH-Grade on a 2-frame with very straight heavy barrels, that weighs a bit over 9 pounds. The Brothers P did more weird and wonderful things with frame size and weight and balance, to the point that even a 6-frame 12-gauge is known to exist --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/6frame12-ga6.jpg

In the later years, most of the Parker guns made for the 12-gauge 3-inch high velocity loads (Western Super-X, Winchester Super-Speed, Remington Arrow Express and Peters High-Velocity) were built on the 1 1/2 frame.

[Bruce Day]

There are no records denominating guns made with the various frame sizes.

TPS lists the frame sizes available for each gauge. Yes, there are 12ga's in 1, 1 1/2, 2 and some in 3 frame size.

The weight variance between frame sizes is slight, a matter of a few ounces. What makes a big difference is the barrels to fit them. And then the barrels can be contoured so that it is again only a matter of a few ounces. For example, there are 1 frame 30" guns that weight 8lbs, others at 7. There are 2 frame 12 30's at 7 1/2, others at over 8.

If you are looking for a Parker, my recommendation is to look at each gun individually. As a general rule, the smaller the frame size, the lighter the gun, but at the result of having lighter/thinner barrels. There are some very nice 2 frame guns that weigh more or less 7 1/2 lbs, which makes them ideal for target shooting and shooting heavier hunting loads. If you are interested in guns of a certain weight, then look for the weight rather than frame size. When these guns were being made, buyers ordered by total gun weight and Parker selected frame size accordingly. I am not aware of any Parker order in which the buyer specified a frame size, but my knowledge of those records is limited by what I have seen or been told.

I see Dave Noreen responded at the same time as I did. I think we are in agreement. To me, the more important question is "what do you want to do with the gun, what shooting activities do you want it for?".

[fritz dornan]

Dave, Bruce
Thank you for your informed reply. Dave the photo you posted has to be one of the heaviest walled 12 ga. guns I have ever seen ,and in beautiful condition I would add. If I am understanding correctly, it appears that not only the barrel weight attached to a particular frame makes a difference in the feel of the gun but more importantly HOW the barrels are constructed, wall thickness, when they swamp and length of the barrels themselves that make the biggest difference…. We all have picked up shotguns of equal weight and one will feel “dead” and the other will feel very dynamic and alive at hand. All of the different ways and combinations that Parker utilized when making their guns explains why they can all feel a little different when handled. Your explanations have opened up a whole new area of thought and confusion. Thank you….I think

Fritz

[Bruce Day]

With respect to a lively feel, some of the most balanced Parkers are to me some 2 frame 30's with significantly contoured barrels. Some of the deadest feeling are 1 frame 30's with substantially uncontoured barrels. Barrel heavy, unbalanced, heavy as a whole. Look at each gun individually without preconceptions.....that's why I think buying off internet sales would be difficult.

[Bill Murphy]

It is incorrect to say there are "no records" to indicate frame sizes, or that frame sizes were "seldom if ever" mentioned. At the pleasure of those who made entries in order books, a frame size was sometimes entered as a request of the customer or the builder of the particular gun. In addition, in later stock books, there is a column to enter frame sizes, and the frame sizes were not only entered, there were stamps for the clerk to enter the frame size. There is not enough information to come up with a total of various frame sizes. To answer your mention of the 2 1/2 frame, when a 2 1/2 frame was specified on an order, that was an indication that the heavy #3 frame was being requested. In addition, the TPS list of frame sizes to gauge is quite incomplete. Rememeber how much we have seen and learned since the research for TPS was done. The frame/gauge combinations not mentioned in TPS have been listed in threads on this forum before. A member had at one time dismantled Parker guns to weigh various frames, but the results of that research project was apparently not completed, or, at least, not posted here. I think the researcher reads this forum and may reply with what he has available. Swamped barrels do keep the weight of a relatively small gauge gun on a large frame within reasonable limits, but some large frame guns with small gauge barrels are not struck in a swamped shape. The pictured 12 gauge gun on the #6 frame is fitted with swamped barrels. However, another known #6 frame gun fitted with straight taper 10 gauge barrels weighs 13 1/2 pounds and the outside diameter of the barrels is sufficient to safely bore them out to nominal eight gauge bore dimensions.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

While I was at Ron Kirbys house many years ago when he was involved with the PGCA he showed me a entry in an order book for a 2-1/4 frame size, So it is possible that other variations exsit!

[Bruce Day]

Thank you Gary. That's the first I had heard of a gun ordered by frame size. And an odd frame size at that. I'm still not aware of any list denominating or listing guns by frame size. All we have is a general sense of frame size by gauge and what we see in collections and in circulation

[Bill Murphy]

Funny, Bruce, in my post I mentioned guns ordered by frame size, in particular the 2 1/2, which is a #3. It's also funny that you "are not aware of any list denominating or listing guns by frame size". I just told you in the same post about the stock book entries that mention frame size by number in one of the columns. You have ceased to surprise readers with your shallow and argumentative posts and bad behavior toward new members. They are used to it. However, I have to mention that you continue to surprise me. I thought you would have quit your abrasive behavior years ago. If you weren't a friend of Charlie Herzog's, I would have crossed you off long ago. You are an a-hole, regardless of your military credentials and love for Boy Scouts. I can't believe how you develop your own opinions in the face of evidence to the contrary. By the way, thank you for all the good work you do with the midwest shows for PGCA. However, every time I participate in a thread where you have posted, I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football while Lucy is pulling it away. I may have finally learned my lesson, but I feel sorry for the people who ask questions and have you as the final authority to answer them.