Rock Island Auction and Parker prices

[Jim DiSpagno]

I am a bit surprised there was no comment on the lower than usual prices on the Parkers at auction this weekend. A titanic steel barreled D grade straight gripped gun circa 1901 for $1,900.00 is unheard of as is a CHE 16 32"bbl. gun in real nice shape for $4,250.00 Whats going on here? Is it the economy or lack of or waning interest in our passion? A first generation Nazi paratroopers helmet with little finish for $11K and an L.C. Smith Monogram grade for $6K. Somethings wrong. Your thoughts please. Thanks, Jim D.

[Dean Romig]

Not enough serious players to bid up the prices. I don't think it has anything to do with lack of interest. Most collectors are just hanging static right now, except for the few smart ones who know what they want and go for it knowing that, because there are fewer serious players, the hammer price will usually be lower than expected.

[Jim DiSpagno]

A Grade7 AAHE 12ga in very good condition for $30K. Kind of low don't you think? and tho 8ga. NH 40"barrel for $22.5K?

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Had a good friend who registered for the auction for phone bidding on that 8ga and they didn't even call him, that has happened to me also at RIA, and I have bought many items from them, sounds like they are a little slack on following up with their customers!

[Bruce Day]

While there are often nice guns available, I have not seen anything lately that was compelling for me.

[Bill Murphy]

It may be the time of year and the number of auctions. Personally, I like to read all the auction catalogs cover to cover. I have not had time to look at the RIA catalog at all. Just didn't have time.

[Justin Julian]

In the post-2008 world, I have purchased a few nice D grades with fluid and damascus barrels on Gun Broker for under $2,000. That is simply the current fair market value in this economy. The Blue Book is waaaay off base on current Parker values. The sellers pricing by the book are not making any sales. Look at the blue book value for a Trojan 12 gauge double trigger extractor in 70% condition and show me one sale since '08 for even half that amount.
The prices realized at RIA accurately reflect the current market values, though sellers and collectors don't like to hear it. On the bright side, now is the time to buy and increase your Parker collection. When the economy rebounds and the prices of Parkers shoot back up, we are all going to be kicking ourselves for not doing more buying now.

[Bruce Day]

Justin, some points in response to your thoughts.

1. There is a new edition of the Blue Book of Gun Values that became available in April. PGCA board member Bill Mullins has for many years been the contributor for Parker values and I know from personal conversations with publisher Steve Fjestad that he believes the Parker values are accurately represented and researched. Steve believes the market is strong for high quality guns but is soft for common guns. My personal view is that many people overstate the condition of their guns. The Blue Book provides that for Parkers condition is of high importance and significantly affects value.

2. Highly regarded gun auctioner Jim Julia has said that with respect to his most recent auction in which a number of high grade Parkers were offered, that " PEOPLE WERE THROWING MONEY AT GOOD GUNS". The gavel prices on those guns were extraordinarily high. We talked to Julia representatives recently and they confirmed that their market is very strong.

3. Friends in the gun business have remarked to me that business is very good on high quality collector grade guns, including Parkers. The market for lesser guns continues to be soft.

4. While it is anecdotal only, I was told in a conversation with a Colt's Mfg Co supervisor that wait times for custom engraved guns will be close to one year, and that their regular production guns are allocated far in advance.

5. Dealer friends at the March Tulsa gun show, one of the largest in the country, told me they did well and sold guns. One said that the market has returned.

6. At the recent NRA convention ( 70,000 to 80,000 attendance) manufacturers such as Remington, Ruger and Browning mentioned to me that interest was strong and people were in a buying mood.

[charlie cleveland]

this soft economy is good for us shooters espically like me... hate to say it but on a whole most of us fellows aint even got money at the moment to buy in this soft economy this includes me... charlie

[fritz dornan]

I was on the phone for the 12 ga CH and the 16 CHE both of which sold for $4250 as noted. I was next in line for both guns. The 16 CHE 32 inch barrel gun was hard to say no to...I just could not do it. The top rib was drilled in 2 places one of the holes was in the address. When they described the gun prioir to the auction there were other issues as well. I think if it were in a little bit better condition it could have been shot without any additional money spent on it and the price would have been higher. It could have been made into a nice gun but it would have taken some money.. The top rib would have been tough to overcome though. Who ever bought it got a really rare Parker that if restored will be very nice.

Fritz

[Justin Julian]

Bruce,

I would agree with your points, though I think some of the sellers you mentioned may have just been putting on a brave face to encourage sales. The truly high condition Parker cream puffs with options and/or in the smaller gauges are still fetching high actual sale prices, and in some auctions I have seen, are selling for much more than the Blue Book would predict. But those are indeed the rare exceptions.

But with respect to the typical 12 gauge Parker in 70% or less condition, the Blue Book prices are currently far higher than any actual sales prices that I have observed in the last 3 years, which is why I won't bother buying the new edition of the Blue Book. For example, according to my (2011) 32nd Edition, a 60% VH in 12 gauge with extractors is listed at $3,500. Get real, Blue Book. That gun, properly photographed and auctioned on GB by a reputable seller would likely sell for about $1,500. That same 12 gauge in 60% condition with extractors in D grade is listed at $6,000....I mean, really? Can someone show me that auction please? The current auctions are proof positive that such a gun's fair market value tops out at around $2,500. In other words, for the commonly encountered Parkers on the market, being well over 90% in my view, the BB is more than double actual selling prices. And this is not to disparage Parkers in particular, as LC Smiths, Winchester 21s and Foxes in comparable condition have also suffered big sales price hits. Last year I purchased a 90% LC Smith Specialty grade with ejectors for $1,500. In 2007, you would have paid over $2500 for that gun in any auction; and believe me, I tried to buy one in enough auctions to know.

So with the limited exceptions that you've described, I do not think anyone seriously follows BB value when bidding on average collectible doubles these days. Many sellers obviously do still price by the book, which is why their guns aren't selling in auction after auction. That is not to say that I don't understand the frustration of collectors and dealers who bought in at high prices and now don't want to acknowledge that the floor has fallen out from under their feet. I too have a safe full of guns that I could not sell today for near what I paid for them 4+ years ago. But on the bright side, I also have some that I was able to purchase recently that I could not have afforded to buy 4 years ago. So in life, one must take the good with the bad, is all I'm saying. I just don't understand why, going on four consecutive and consistent years, the BB has not yet been updated to reflect this current reality, which may persist for years to come.

[Bruce Day]

Justin, good observations and a thoughtful post. I think Parkers are undervalued by reference to other guns of interest to gun accumulators. And maybe somewhat of a personal view is that the more we as individuals and as an association can do to encourage Parker acquisitions, to present this group as one that newcomers want to be a part of, to present the image of Parkers as a high quality gun and the PGCA as a high quality, gentlemanly organization, the more people will want to buy and be with us. People want to be a part of something that is uplifting.

I have been surprised about the volatility of the gun market. There are numerous examples, but one not associated with Parkers comes to mind. In the recent six months, French shotguns have been hot. Before that, they muddled along. There was a Shooting Sportsman article , a Double Gun Journal article, and then it was hard to find a French gun and prices increased dramatically. The power of advertising and group think among collectors was surprising to me. If we could tap into that with Parkers, well think of what could be. A few of us are trying to do our part and maybe people will see things in the coming year.

[Dean Romig]

Excellent observations guys, most of which I agree with from my experiences over the last two years.

[Ed Blake]

What I would add to this discussion is lower end guns (condition) provide excellent restoration opportunities. I have bought several of these over the past couple years that languished on the auction sites, but once cleaned up and some work put into them are very nice shooters that have filled various niches in my small collection. I keep telling myself "no more projects", but I tend to enjoy the process.

[Mills Morrison]

No lack of interest on the 8 gauge, apparently. Looks like my dream of owning one just got further away.

[Bill Murphy]

Mills, there is a big difference between two guns in vastly different configurations and conditions. There are $6000 eight gauge and there are $25,000 eight gauges.

[George Lander]

Any thoughts on what Annie's Parker will bring in the June 10th Heritage auction?

George

[Bill Murphy]

A bunch if the documentation is right, which it seems to be. Don't forget the second Annie Oakley gun to be sold in Colorado in June. I have not gotten any information on that one yet.

[Kevin McCormack]

What about the stunning 32" BHE 20 gauge all-scroll-engraved that was presented for sale at the Southern SxS for $38K? (Long walk back to the car). Et tu, 'Glitterati'?

[Dave Fuller]

If anyone has a "nice D Grade under $2000" please PM me. Unfortunately I don't have time to fly east for the auctions and "nice D grades" are as rare as Woodcock on the west coast.

[Dean Romig]

What about the stunning 32" BHE 20 gauge all-scroll-engraved that was presented for sale at the Southern SxS for $38K? (Long walk back to the car). Et tu, 'Glitterati'?

May we presume this is a reference to the "Hearts Parker" or possibly its present custodian?

[Dean Romig]

A 32" 20 ga. BHE...?... Be still my heart! Was it a straight grip too? :crying:

[Jared Valeski]

I am a bit surprised there was no comment on the lower than usual prices on the Parkers at auction this weekend. A titanic steel barreled D grade straight gripped gun circa 1901 for $1,900.00 is unheard of as is a CHE 16 32"bbl. gun in real nice shape for $4,250.00 Whats going on here? Is it the economy or lack of or waning interest in our passion? A first generation Nazi paratroopers helmet with little finish for $11K and an L.C. Smith Monogram grade for $6K. Somethings wrong. Your thoughts please. Thanks, Jim D.

I would truly liked to have personally examined the Parkers from RIA that by just looking at the hammer prices would seem to indicate a soft market. Someone already mentioned that the CHE 16 32" had many issues, including a drilled top rib. Makes me think that there were probably issues with the others especially the ones that seem to have been sold at an aparent bargain. I know many of us as collectors have seen our share of recased, reblued, rewooded, straight grip converted Parkers offered as original guns to sink a small ship. I think you must be able to assess the originality and overall condition before you can comment on the hammer prices as being too low or too high.

[George Lander]

Bill had the "Gold Hearts" Parker at the Southern. It is gorgeous to say the least.

Best Regards, George

[Dean Romig]

I saw her at The Southern the first time Bill exposed her to the public...before she had been cleaned up.

[Eric Eis]

I saw her at The Southern the first time Bill exposed her to the public...before she had been cleaned up.

She looks alot better now....:)

[Bill Murphy]

That old beater isn't too much "cleaned up". The buttplate went through a complete restoration and the barrel finish was restored on both sets, but that was the extent of the "restoration". The wood, the gold, and the bores are untouched. She will still hunt or kill box birds in the rain.

[George Lander]

Bill: It was a pleasure to finally meet you at the Southern after all these years.

Best Regards, George

[Kevin McCormack]

The "Gold Hearts" Parker is a bizarre and frightening gun. As the PGCA letter shows, it is a "Gyro Gearloose" modification which completely destroyed the original cachet of the original configuration. When it first surfaced on Doug Turnbull's junk table at the Millbrook Vintagers years ago, as Bill began negotiations for sale, I had to leave the tent. Much to his credit, however, the 'dingus' has been rescued from the fate of being parted-out, turned into a lamp, or donated to a Ripley's Believe It or Not museum. Now we have proof through the Order Books that there were in fact real orders for "Parkers Gone Wild."

[Kevin McCormack]

No, Dean; the stunning 32" BHE 20 had nothing to do with the "Gold Hearts" gun. It was presented for sale by the greedy gap-toothed boy who blew in while most of us were packing up to leave late Sunday morning. It disappeared as quick as it surfaced.

[Bruce Day]

More than one of these nice guns from gapped or missing toothed young men have turned out to be stolen. Remember the young man who came on here selling an "inheritance" gun that turned out to be premature. Grandma was still very much alive and wanted it back in the closet where it belonged. That nice young man who came on here had a habit.

[Bill Murphy]

Your turn, Kevin, as long as you're on a roll. I need a break.

[fritz dornan]

Wait... stop, you mean sometimes a guy selling a gun may embelish a thing or two to make the sale? This is good to know!!

[Bill Murphy]

:):):)

[Kevin McCormack]

Right on, Bruce! Years ago a young guy who lived somewhat near me called me at 10:30PM, saying he had been referred to me by a close friend of mine as someone who knew about Parker Guns. He said he had a 12 gauge Parker that was "covered with engraving" and wanted to sell it so he could close out the mortgage on his house. When I questioned him about my friend's reference, he said he "worked with" him. He insisted on coming over to my house that night to show me the gun and offer it for sale.

I put him off until the next night then called my friend to verify the reference. Turns out the guy worked in the HVAC plant in the Library of Congress where my friend worked in one of the advanced folklife research units. He had done a couple of days work in my friends' office and during that time noticed the wildlife paintings, decoys, etc. on my friend's desk and walls, then got to talking shotguns. He took the cue on Parker Guns from my friend, who gave him my card, probably to get rid of him.

When he showed up at my house he arrived in a tiny Honda Escort with a homeless-looking buddy and the biggest Rottweiler I'd ever seen who was not especially friendly. How the three of them ever fit in that car I don't know. While we stood in my garage, I told him to keep the dog in the car and asked the buddy to stand off to one side while I examined the gun. It turned out to be a VH 12 gauge 30" complete with broken stock and J.C. Higgins recoil pad, in about what Steve Fjested's rating system would term "undesireable." I sent the trio off after about 15 minutes and made sure they made it all the way out to the end of my pipestem driveway before I closed the garage door.

I called my friend the next day around noon to report the episode, whereupon he told me the DC Police came to the HVAC plant and arrested the guy; seems he was trying to market the gun in the shop, a DEFINITE NO-NO in our firearms-paranoid Nations' Capital. I submitted his name as a candidate for the Darwin Award finalists that year and found out that he was eliminated in the final round just before selections were made. Turns out the guy had a record (shocker!) for possesion of cocaine, crack and meth at various times during his "chemical romance" years.

Message: Be Discreet; they are out there and eager to serve you!!

[Dean Romig]

Hmmm... "greedy gap-toothed boy"... now, I wonder who that might have been...:whistle: