My Parker Research Letter is in; need translation

[Jeffrey Cruz]

First, does anyone know where N.D. Folsom and Co. is located? No physical location was given.


Finally can anyone tell me if there are any discrepancies from the contents of this letter with following photos. In other words. Does this seem to be in original condition, e.g. chokes still RH and LH.

[Jeffrey Cruz]

This is going to be peicemeal. I'm still trying to upload the letter. Give me a few.

[Ross Berck]

It would probably be HD Folsom They were in business for a long time and sold all kinds of guns.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=142944188


An interesting headline from the nyt 1900
SHOT BY HIS EMPLOYER; Head of H. & D. Folsom Arms Company Under Arrest. Says Second-Hand Revolver Was Accidentally Discharged --- Peter Koller, Wounded Man Now in Hospital.

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E-MAIL

July 3, 1900, Wednesday

Page 5, 1057 words

While examining a pile of old revolvers lying on a counter in the store of the H. D. Folsom Arms Company, at 314 Broadway, yesterday noon. Henry T. Folsom, the head of the firm, accidentally, shot and fatally injured Peter Koller, one of the salesmen. Koller, unconscious and in a dying condition, was taken to the Hudson Street Hospital.

[Jeffrey Cruz]

Since I can't upload a scan, here is what hte letter says:

Mr. Cruz: Parker shotgun sn 45680 was ordered by N.D. Folsom and CO on 12/14/ 1885. According to PB, Order book no 20 it was a quality 0 top action hammer, 12 gauge. It featured plain twist steel barrels with a length of 30 inches. Its stock configuration was capped pistol grip. THe chokes were patterned RH (175 #8 pellets in a 30 " circle at 45 yards) and LH (175 #8 pellets in a 30 in circle at 45 yards). According to Parker Bros. Stock Book no. 16 its specifications were : lenghth of pul: 14 1/4 ", drop at hell; 2 7/8, wight: 7 pounds and 5 ounces. The price was $55.

According to Order Book no 23. the gun was returned on 10/18/1888 by Dr. C.M. Burke Jr., in Norwalk, CT to replace the tumbler locks. THere was no charge. According to order book no. 96 the gun was retgurned on 12/27/1916 by Henry A. Burke in Cranberry Isle, Maine to repair lock and replace tumbler and sear. The charge was $2.00

[Ed Blake]

N D Folsom was a hardware store in New Haven, Conn., long since closed I would imagine. Not sure what you mean about RH and LH chokes. Your letter would describe how the gun left the factory (barrel length, grade, maybe chokes) and to whom it was delivered.

[Jeffrey Cruz]

Finally, here are some pics:

http://s1010.photobucket.com/albums/af221/jeffsquire66/

[Jeffrey Cruz]

I've hear NY and now CT. Anybody else want to chime in with their state?:rotf:

Maybe Mr. Conrad can assist.

[John Mazza]

Jeff:

Your gun looks nice ! I have an almost identical gun (which also lettered as going to Folsom) that was made in 1886. (BTW: Does your gun have a standard dog's head buttplate, or does it say say something else ?)

Although my gun is NOT fancy by any means, it is a very solid, well-made gun that I will never sell. I hunt & shoot trap with it often. If memory serves, my gun was "patterned" the same as yours. With 2 1/2" RST shells (3/4 or 7/8 ounce loads) - I can shoot trap all day long and only miss if I make a mistake. (...so each barrel must be giving at least modified performance, in my opinion).

Have it checked out, then enjoy the hell out of it !

[Mark Conrad]

I ommitted the location of New Haven, CT. I'll send you another letter. I gave you the pattern information because it is there. The books don't list the ounces of shot in the shotshell so it it is hard to determine the actual choke unless it is spelled out in the order. I suspect your gun was full and full because the order does not specify choke. Note the pattern info is 45 yards not 40.

Mark

[Kurt Densmore]

Assuming a 1 1/8oz load there is 461 #8 pellets. This would give you a 38% pellet count at 45 yards. The chart that I have only goes up to 40 yards and a 40% pellet count is Cylinder choke at the 40 yard mark. The chart also shows pretty much a 20% decrease every 10 yards, so...we could extrapolate that it would be about skeet choke which is listed as 50% pattern at 40 yards and an extrapolated 40% pattern at 45 yards.

I had that gun listed as Mod/Cyl but it may have been with a galazan brass choke gauge (which will not be all that accurate seeing as the bores are probably not .730" )and not by the constriction. Next time you are into GM take the barrels in and have the gunsmith measure the choke constriction. Other than that you will need to shoot it at some paper at known distances.

Good Luck,
Kurt

[Bill Murphy]

The target shot by Parker Brothers in that period was smaller than 30 inches as well as being shot at 45 yards, not 40. I just looked at an early stock book in TPS and there was a whole page of 175 patterns out of 12 gauge guns with 30" and 32" barrels, not likely open choked guns. One gun lists a second barrel with a 150 pattern. I can't remember what the pattern size is in these early stock books, but I think it was 20" or 25". A 20" or 25" pattern at 45 yards with a 175 count is probably full choke. The 150 pattern is probably a modified in the TPS illustration. The reason that Mark does not always have complete information on patterns for our letters is that the stock book copies were too wide to reproduce on Commander Gunther's copiers in two pieces. Normally, the right column or columns were sacrificed. These columns contained the pattern information in some eras. He did not have the option of cutting off the right (correction, left) columns because they contained the serial number. Often, the load used and the distance and diameter of the target is not specified. When the Research Committee was at Ilion in 1998, we copied very few stock book pages because Commander Gunther had already made copies and gifted those copies to PGCA.

[John Mazza]

Based on past forum discussions, I don't think we reached a consensus as to what shot charge Parker used. (...and, I think it varies with era, as in early guns may have been patterned with lighter loads, with 20th century guns having heavier shot charges.)

Either way, this old ammo had no plastic shot cups/wad columns, and probably featured soft shot & the "less than gentle" acceleration of black powder - all things that won't result in optimal patterns.

Long story short, my gun (patterened the same as the one in this discussion) is a nice skeet gun with "old fashioned" black powder loads, but it's a trap gun with the modern, efficient RST shells.

So, regardless of what choke percentage it shot like in 1885, the practical shooter would want to know what choke it shoots like today.

In your case, I'd say at least modified.

[Mark Conrad]

Bill is exactly right on the pattern information. First of all, the page (copy) stops on the pattern information. Sometimes I can make it out others I can't tell the size of the shot. The early guns were patterned at 45 yards with 24 inch circles. In this case it says 45 yards but the size of the circle is not mentioned. In looking at the other guns on that page none are tighter than 175. That is the reason I feel it was full choke. Also in the order books if open chokes are desired, it says it in the order. If no choke is mentioned it is safe to assume the gun is full choke. Back in the time this gun was ordered the large dealers would order as many as 3 or 4 hundred guns at a time. Most were ordered with full choke and in my opinion the dealer would open them up if the customer wanted less choke.

Mark

[John Mazza]

Didn't Jeff state that his letter specified a 30" circle at 45 yards ?

[Ed Blake]

My recommendation to anyone wondering about chokes, chamber length, or bore size is buy a Skeets gauge from Midway or Brownells for $100. Takes all the guess work out of it.

[Mark Conrad]

In the very early guns (under 10,000) the pattern information is usually all there including 24 inch circle. An example would be 175 8 45 24 and the 24 has a circle around it. I just pulled out about 20 stock books and once you get over 15,000 in serials none have the circle size. Most stop on the yardage. The page or copy stops before you get to the circle size. So, the question is, when did they go to a 30 inch circle. Another issue is that they changed the yardage from 45 to 40 for large bore guns. In what I just found they changed the yardage in the 80 to 90 thousand range from 45 to 40. Another problem is they used # 7 and 8 shot but I can see that in most cases.

Up to somewhere in the 80000 range 12 bore guns patterned about 175 and 10 bore guns were 195. I checked the early guns where they used a 24 inch circle it appears to be the same. So, I would say they stayed with the 24 inch circle until they changed the yardage from 45 to 40. I have no way to verify this unless we look at an original stock book.

Jeff, I mailed you another copy today with the city. I suspect the 30 inch circle should be 24. If you want it changed to 24, I can do that as well.

Mark

[Bill Murphy]

Mark, thanks for correcting my guess of 25 or 20 inch circle. I knew it was less than 30. Now we know it was 24. Mark is estimating as close as he can the dates and serial number ranges where they changed the range and target for the pattern information. To add even more confusion, there seem to be examples of use of 1 1/8 ounce loads as well as 1 1/4 ounce loads for patterning. There would be less confusion if we could see all the stock book information in the PGCA copies, but, as Mark and I have mentioned, we don't have all the information that was posted in the right columns.