Very Early Redesigned Forend Latch?

[Eric Estes]

I came across #11009 a plain twist 12GA lifter that is from the end of the 1877 run. The interesting thing about this one is that it has the redesined forend latch. I am still a rank beginner and learning, but from my limited research this is a very early gun to have this feature. Has anyone heard of lifters with the older split pin latch being sent back to the factory and refit with the newer design?

Still in discussions with the owner so I have not got my hands on it yet to verify all details, but am interested in any thoughts anyone has.

[Bill Murphy]

I believe we have found that there are more than a few early guns with an out of era latch, assumed to be factory installed.

[Eric Estes]

Thanks Bill. Since it is not all that rare I will stick to evaluating this one on condition and shootability. I guess someone should submit some earlier examples for the Parkers found list. That shows #12204 as the earliest found.

[Dave Suponski]

Bill, Is spot on we have seen more than several guns being converted to the Deeley and Edge latch.

[Robert Rambler]

Here is a pic of 15901 forend. Originally had a cross pin,which appears to have been plugged and pinned with three small wooden dowels, then checked over. No mention of it in the letter. Maybe an example of older designed parts being used up?

[Richard B. Hoover]

Robert,

Can you please post a pic of the latch and the forfend iron?

[Dean Romig]

It is what it is... you can plainly see the early forend tip.

[Robert Rambler]

Here ya go. :)

[Richard B. Hoover]

Robert,

Thank. That shows what I wanted to see. The "Patd Mar 26, 1878" is stamped on the latch rather than the latch lever. What is the grade of 15901? Is it obvious where the barrels have been changed to receive the King latch rather than the wedge forend?

Richard

[Eric Estes]

Richard,

What is the importance of the patent date stamped on the latch body as opposed to the latch lever? Still learning, thanks.

[Robert Rambler]

15901 was an O grade, straight grip,#2 frame,29in barrels,unstruck weight of 4lbs 4oz. Someone wanted a LIGHT 10ga. Bought as a parts gun for $169. Good frame and action parts,barrels are literally sewer pipes. Mayb I'll make wind chimes out of em!:duck: :nono: :corn:

No evidence of barrel lug being reworked,probably couldn't tell anyway if they were refinished at the same time. I suspect forend wood was just modified to be used with the new style latch from day one.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Eric,

Sorry, I may have said that a bit awkwardly. I am really interested in finding if there are other early examples of the King Latch system with NO Patent Date inscription. Parker # 3561 has an engraved latch with no inscription. I recall years ago Ron Kirby mentiomed that some were stamped on the latch lever, but to date I have only seen the stamp on the body as in this example. In some cases the inscription is in two lines rather than one. I would like to know if there are other early lifter hammer guns with he redesigned latch that lact the Patent Date inscription.

Richard

[Richard B. Hoover]

Robert,

I appreciated the pics of the sewer pipes. I forgot that 15901 was the serial number, which would have been completed after the King latch was introduced. So do you think they were just using up some previously made forfend material that was originally finished for the wedge system?

By the way, I just looked at your profile and saw the delightful pics from your album with our dogs on the Pheasant hunt. The white dog with the orange ears is really great. Is that a "French Brittany"?

Richard
M

[Eric Estes]

Richard,

Not awkward at all, your observation made me curious. I was completely unaware of these variations. Thanks for the additional explanation. I appreciate it.

[Robert Rambler]

Nope, thems standard poodles. :rotf::rotf::rotf:

Orange eared Brittney indeed (says the wife).:duck:

[Brian Dudley]

Very interesting post. I would be curious to see the forend lug on those barrels too. Since that would have to have been reworked for the newer style forend latch.

[Robert Rambler]

Comparison of #9848 cross pin lug and #15901 latch style lug. Both O grade 10ga.

[Dean Romig]

It would certainly be easy enough to replace the keyed loop with the later loop for the Deeley and Edge style of forend latch.

[Dave Noreen]

Just because a forearm has a lever in it doesn't make it a Deeley & Edge.

The Charles King designed and patented Parker Bros. forearm latch with its little lever actuated tilting block which engages the lug on the barrels is not a Deeley & Edge. U.S. use of the 1873 patented Deeley & Edge forearm latch was licensed to E. Remington & Sons on April 24, 1879. Likewise, the lever latch in the forearms of the Colt 1883 and the American Arms Co. Whitmore designed hammerless double were not Deeley & Edge.

Ansley Fox copied the King-designed lever-actuated tilting block forearm latch on his Parker Bros. look-alike Philadelphia Arms Co. gun, but later used the Deeley & Edge opposing hooks on his A.H. Fox Gun Co. gun.

FWIW page 101 of The Parker Story says the first gun with the King patented latch was 11631, but the keyed forearm was still used into 1880 on 16222.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Dave, for clarifying that. I was corrected many years ago for referring the King latch as "Anson & Deeley" and was told it was a Deeley and Edge. Now when I repeat the "Deeley and Edge" misnomer the truth finally comes out. Thanks again.
I read The Parker Story cover to cover when I first bought it about eight years ago but I guess I didn't retain all of it.

[Richard B. Hoover]

The question I have is is it possible to tell from examining the barrel that the wedge style lug has been removed and replaced with the King lat h lug??? It looks like the wedge lug is longer and there seems to be a longer darker area in the photo of the 15901 barrels. Is that correct? Do you have another example of the wedge to King Latch conversion to see if that idea holds. The reason I ask is because I have a pre 1878 Parker with a King Latch and it doesn't appear That either the barrel of the forfend have been altered from the wedge style.

Your help in answering this question would be greatly appreciated.


Richard

[Dave Suponski]

Dave,Thank you for the explanation. Page 99 in the TPS states."The new system was based on the Deeley and Edge latch" If King recieved a patent for his new design and we know he did then the mechanism must be different enough. Another thing that I never knew is the the new latch was offered in the 1878 catalog at $5 extra on guns below grade3. The "King" latch became standard in 1880.

Thanks for driving me back to TPS.

[Brian Dudley]

When looking at the photos of the two different forend loops earlier in the thread, I would think it possible to modify the keyed loop to accept the latch type forend. But That is jsut based on the photo and not taking measurments or having both in front of me. I would think the replacement of the loop to be a bit more than easy to do. Wouldn't the loop be silver soldered and the ribs tin soldered? Making the removal of the loop harder than the ribs?

[Dean Romig]

One would hope so Brian, but we've seen a good number of latch-type forend loops come loose even with the proper splinter forend in use.

[Robert Rambler]

Richard, I don't have another wedge latch to compare. No evidence I can see of a latch removal/replacement. I think the dark spots are just rust and grime.The bases are the same length 1 5/16, and in the same position on the barrels. If you'll be attending the Southern I can bring them along and you can inspect them first hand.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Robert,

Thanks. from this image it is clear that they are the same size, so there may be no way to answer this question. I would love to attend the Southern, but I doubt that it will be possible this year. I do not think my wife will feel up to the trip and I can not leave her here alone. If this changes I will be here. If I can come I will bring my bore gauges. I am still very much interested in learning more about Parker's use of full length tapered bores. Do any of your lifter guns have this feature?

So far I have found full length taper bores in Serial Numbers:

3451 - 11 bore barrels; 11A chambers
3561 - 11 bore barrels; 11A chambers
3620 - 11bore barrels; 10A chambers
3752 - 10 bore right, 11 bore left; 11A chambers

3451 to 3752must have spanned a very short period of time--but there may be lower and higher serial numbers that just have not yet been measured. It would be nice if we could get info on the patterning of these guns from the records.

I know this data only for # 3561 --- the right barrel delivered 120 pellets and the left delivered 125 pellets from 1 and 1/8 oz of #8 shot into 24" diameter circle at 45 yds.

I would love to hear of other Parker's with full length tapered bores and the difference in dates of completion of 3451to 3752.

Yours,

Richard

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah, based on those comparisons, it looks like the loop location is comparable, but the amount of metal on the loop on the back side is not enough ton the key type compared to the latch type.
It would be very interesting to know what happened to that Parker years ago.