Hemingway's guns

[Steve McCarty]

I am on a quest to own guns like those that Ernest Hemingway owned. I bought the new book about the old boy and his guns and it started me off. It was relatively easy to pick up a old, well worn, Model 12 and the Model 62 Winchester .22. I've got a Superposed like his. The Griffin and Howe 03 Springfield is going to be spendy (as we say in Oregon), but they are available. I've got a Mannlicher Schoenaur (sp?) carbine. The Colt Woodsman will be easy.

I cannot find any data that reports that Hem owned a Parker. Anybody out there know if he did?

I am going to make an exception with the Model 21. For the money I just don't like them, and anyway Hem gave those to his wives.

Not sure what I'm going to do about the 577 double rifle. I've always wanted to own one of those boomers, but I think, if I can find the scratch, I'll buy any double rifle in some kind of caliber that I can shoot comfortably, like a .303 and call it good.

BTW: I am already well over Papa's age when he blew his brains out, so I doubt I'll complete my task, but any reason to buy another gun is worth the effort. He killed himself with a W.C. Scott 12 gauge. I see those from time to time.

Please don't PM me with guns that you have for sale. I'm ammo minus in the $ dept today. I'm saving up.

[Drew Hause]

No record of a Parker
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20113472

"When you have loved three things all your life, from the earliest you can remember, to fish, to shoot and, later, to read; and when, all your life the necessity to write has been your master, YOU LEARN TO REMEMBER and, when you think back you remember more fishing and shooting and reading than anything else and that is a pleasure."

Sad and prescient words.
Hemingway likely had bipolar disorder, and his father and two siblings committed suicide. In the fall of 1960 he was being treated for alcoholic liver disease and hypertension (some antihypertensives can cause depression) and had his first round of Electroconvulsive Therapy at the Mayo Clinic. Following a suicide attempt in the spring of 1961, he had more treatments at the Menninger Clinic.
With his body destroyed by alcohol, and his memories erased by the ECT, he committed suicide July 2, 1961.

For Whom the Bell Tolls (1940) "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for and I hate very much to leave it."

[Steve McCarty]

Slightly off kilter geniuses interest me. (Are they all?) W.C. Fields, Groucho Marx, Dorothy Parker, Twain, T.R. and of course Hemingway. I ponder, that if we had met, if I would have liked the guy. Not sure; don't think so. Bob Ruark wrote that he ran into Hem in one of his favorite watering holes in Cuba. Papa was in a secluded rear table, behind some potten plants, working on editing. Ruark said he appeared to be deep in thought and he as so intimidated by the man's presence that he feared to go back and say hello.

Some wag wrote that all real men either want to be like Hemingway, or to be liked by him. He had demons...including demon rum which he imbibed copious like. Biographies of the man are compelling. It would have been exciting to attend a bull fight with him. He considered himself expert on such matters. Today we'd probably fix him up and he would have lived another decade or so.

[Steve McCarty]

Thanks, Drew, for the Hem attachment. During the past year several interesting books have been published about Hemingway: One is a redo of A Moveable Feast, much different from the one edited by Mary Hem after the man's death. Paris Wife a novel based upon Hadley, his first, and as he later said, best wife. There is also a bio of Valeria Hemingway who was Hem's secretary at the end of his life and who eventually married Gregory (Gigi) Hemingway. They met at Ernest's funeral.

Ernest's quixotic personality was inherited by Gigi. He became a relatively successful MD. He was a cross dressor and suffered from that ailment from his earliest days and it got worse. Hem disowned him. He married Valerie, Hem's loyal secretary. They had several children. Then Gigi had a sex changer operation and they divorced. Gigi died in a women's prison and sad, confused and broken man...er women. She went by Gloria. Of course Ernest's beautiful and talented granddaugher was bipolar and she too committed suicide. Many within the Hemingway family, both before Hem and after, have suffered from mental maladies.

I find the man fascinating. It would have been fun searching for errant U-boats with the guy in the Carrib. Might get in some fishing too.

[ed good]

anybody see the recent woody allen flick "midnight in paris"? hemingway and some of his contemporaries are in it...delightful little movie to watch with a lady friend.

[Bill Murphy]

Boss.

[Steve McCarty]

anybody see the recent woody allen flick "midnight in paris"? hemingway and some of his contemporaries are in it...delightful little movie to watch with a lady friend.

I watched Midnight in Paris twice. I'm sure that Woody Allen wrote the lines for the HEM character. I wonder what Hem would have thought about how he was portrayed.

A few things however. Gertrude Stein, and Alice B. Toklas lived in a studio apartment. In the movie it looks like a penthouse. I would have liked to hear more dialogue from her about writing other than, "Keep at it", or some such drivel.

Hem and Stein liked eachother for a while and he loved going over to her place. Some interesting people dropped by. Fitzgerald and Zelda, John Dospasos (sp?), Joyce, Picasso, Pissario (?) [sure wish I could spell], several artists of renoun. Even Calder I think. Papa bought one of his paintings and kept it for the rest of his life. Hem considered himself a great art critic. Don't know if he actually was however.

Hem dropped by Stein's apartment and over heard she and Alice doing what comes unnaturally; and they knew and he knew and both were so embarrassed that Hem and Stein never did get along after that.

Stein was a fan of the laconic, and she must have influenced HEM's writing style. I think Stein is/was over rated. Apparently Alice was the more interesting of the two.

[Dean Romig]

Didn't Alice B. Toklas make cookies or somethin'?

[Rick Losey]

Didn't Alice B. Toklas make cookies or somethin'?

yeah or sumpthun

:nono:

[Don Kaas]

Read Paul Hendrickson's "Hemingway's Boat" and Christopher Ondjaate's "Hemingway in Africa-the last safari". EH was a member of my gun club. Some of the older members knew him in the 50's. (He first visited with 3rd wife, Martha G. and son Patrick in 1944 as a guest of his society friend, Winston Guest and became a member in the late 40's. Guest, quite the playboy and "sport", himself also brought the then broke baron, Bror Blixen to the Club) Unfortunately, none of the folks who knew him as young men have much nice to say about our only Nobel winning member. By the time, he reached his mid 50s EH was a very troubled fellow. Even Hotchner's somewhat hagiographic "Papa" show hints of that. I put up a plaque in the entrance hall a few years ago on the 50th Anniverary of "the Fight in the Foyer" when EH fought another member Ed Taws (CEO of Burlington Mills) to a draw one boozy morning after a night of hard drinking. Fame and reputation have their price and EH paid his bill in full.

[King Brown]

Under the circumstances, his faculties gone, like an old samaurai he fell on his sword. I don't fault him for that; except for the noise and mess, almost an act of grace. I wouldn't have enjoyed his company. His writing, of course, was often peerless. Martha Gellhorn was a better reporter and better person. My father imbibed wisdom at Stein's on Rue Madame, and my Paris friends have an apartment a few doors away.

Put it down to chauvinism: his posturing was so insufferable to me that I take some pleasure from the Canadian writer half his size, Morley Callaghan, giving him a boxing lesson in Paris, knocking him on his ass. Hemingway blamed Fitzgerald, the timer, for extending the round beyond three minutes.

I worked in the company of Callaghan and his son Barry, now also a distinguished writer. But for all that, the No. 2 print of Karsh's famous turtleneck photo of Hemingway watches over my desk. He inspires still.

[Steve McCarty]

I wonder how the mythical Hemingway compared to the real one. He had an image of himself that he worked hard to create. I think, that when he saw himself slipping he just could not live with his new self and me made that mess in the foyer.

He was only 61 when he died, but he looked 80. Was it the booze, or the concussions that he had one after the other? He was nearly killed in two plane crashes and after one he butted the door open with his head. Dura fluid ran from his hears.

I enjoyed Valeria Hemingway's book about her relationship with him. I thought it more insightful into what made the man tick that either Baker's or Hotchner's bios.

Good, evil, talented, selfish or no; Hemingway lived a life to be proud of. Was he a good man? I don't know. But he's been kaput for 61 years and we're still talking about him, that says something.

[Steve McCarty]

Under the circumstances, his faculties gone, like an old samaurai he fell on his sword. I don't fault him for that; except for the noise and mess, almost an act of grace. I wouldn't have enjoyed his company. His writing, of course, was often peerless. Martha Gellhorn was a better reporter and better person. My father imbibed wisdom at Stein's on Rue Madame, and my Paris friends have an apartment a few doors away.

Put it down to chauvinism: his posturing was so insufferable to me that I take some pleasure from the Canadian writer half his size, Morley Callaghan, giving him a boxing lesson in Paris, knocking him on his ass. Hemingway blamed Fitzgerald, the timer, for extending the round beyond three minutes.

I worked in the company of Callaghan and his son Barry, now also a distinguished writer. But for all that, the No. 2 print of Karsh's famous turtleneck photo of Hemingway watches over my desk. He inspires still.

Mr. Brown; your father was at Gertrude Stein's apartment in Paris! What interesting stories he must have told! Do you recall any of his pearls of wisdom that she imparted? When I ponder Stein's writing I think of the Rose times 3 and what a lousy place Oakland was. I can't recall reading anything that she wrote. Nor do I recall how she and her brother Leon made their money. Did they have a fortune? They were from SFO as I recall.

Hemingway, in the late 50's went back to his Parisian haunts and even found one of his favorite waiters, who recalled him and brought him to his old seat. I visited Sloppy Joes fifty years ago when the original owner still owned it and it was like it was when Hem knew it. He pointed me to Hem's favorite bar stool. It was to the left of the pass through. Today that place looks nothing like it did in the 60's.

The Pilar still lives, but sits on dry land behind the his Cuban home that is now a museum, but you can't go inside. Tourists have to peek through the windows.

Just this morning I was reading a collection of Hem's hunting stories. Yes, indeed he still does inspire.

[King Brown]

". . . and Hemingway, whatever else he knew, knew for all time that the questions he had in a lifetime were answered, and those that remained were no longer of any consequence."

Last words of Hemingway, a life without consequences by James R. Mellon

Steve, conversations with Stein at the time often circled the failure of capitalism and the promised utopia of communism. My father engaged in spirited debates that included the anarchist Emma Goldman and Louise Bryant, widow of John Reed who wrote Ten Days That Shook The World. He returned to Canada as a Communist.

Any one who wasn't thinking that way at that time wasn't thinking at all.

[Steve McCarty]

King: I've been reading Three Soldiers by John Dos Passos. It's not exactly a page turner. He was one of Hem's cronies and was one of the reds who visited the Steins. Dos Passos however, while an avowd communist during his Parisian days switched and became an equally avid Nixon supporter. His relationship with the Soviet Communists had been an explicit one and turned him away from Stein's false utopia.

The movie Reds was based on Reed's work. And yes, Armond Hammer was a spy. So was Alger Hiss.

I read Ruark and Hemingway side by side and read the new remembrance of Ruark written by his secretary. I like to compare the two men and find much alike between them. Ruark lived in Hem's shadow and he knew it and he did not like it.

I'm not sure that Hemingway saw life as a problem to be brooded over, but rather as a challenge not to be conquered, but to become wrapped up with. He, and people in his family, before him and after, suffered bouts of depression. He drank his way through them, which made them worse, of course. Proper medication would have helped the old boy.

Was your dad Dee Brown?

[King Brown]

No, my father was Kingsley Brown, same as mine. As so many others, he broke from CP before the war because of its anti-Semitism. Politics of the time were byzantine as revealed by Hemingway's Bell Tolls. Some things never change. It generally boils down to who's going to feed at the trough.

[Steve McCarty]

No, my father was Kingsley Brown, same as mine. As so many others, he broke from CP before the war because of its anti-Semitism. Politics of the time were byzantine as revealed by Hemingway's Bell Tolls. Some things never change. It generally boils down to who's going to feed at the trough.

King: What is going on today in the political arena is not child's play.

I have always found Europeans shockingly anti-Semitic, and the Brits not far behind. It appears to me to be ingrained within their cultures. The Merchant of Venice is telling.

Hemingway was known as being anti-Semitic, calling himself Hemingstein as some kind of a joke. I catch the scent of growing anti-Semitism in the air, here, today. Strange.

[Steve McCarty]

King: I just googled you and find that you did extensive work on women in the military. I was "in" from 64 to 94.

I was a drill sergeant at Fort Jackson in 1981/2 when the Army decided to train women right alongside the men. It was a disaster! I complained to the colonel and he gave me some PC BS and I'm still riled about it.

Just a few comments: Training women in the infantry alongside men short changed the men and brutalized the women. Training women in infantry like settings was out of place for the girls and you never saw such a room full of long faces when you were instructing about the care and usage of hand granades, for instance. Men on the other hand loved being soldiers (most of them) and got right to it. Women and men are genuinely different and the military should cotton to that fact!

During the VN War I was an attack pilot in the Marine Corps. We were hard chargers. There were no women around, except in those places where one would expect to find them. Women in the fighting units cannot enhance the fighting spirit of men in combat.

I have to admit that I've been "out" for a long time and when I left active service in the Marines in 1980, women were just beginning to make inroads into the squadron, but not as pilots. When I later joined the Army Reserve there were quite a few women being trained in infantry type environs. In addition, all of the women, dolls or no, became pregnant in pretty short order. One just cannot put young men alongside young women and not expect nature to make its way. This caused all kinds of problems. Problems that we did not want to have to deal with, but we had no choice.

I believe, however; that there is a place for women in the military, but in more feminine roles. I am not being "sexist", but realistic.

One last thing. When I was a company commander in a training battalion in the army infantry we had a female regular officer who was part of our battalion. This young women was as pretty as women get. She was about 22 and had her uniforms taylored. This beauty could really fill her BDU's! Blond, blue eyed and one hell of a jock! She was a 90 lb bundle of energy. She was also the fastest soldier on the obstacle course in the entire battalion.

We had a young 2Lt fellow who was as good looking young man as the lady was female. He was the second faster GI on the OC. He was rendered unusable because he was so enamored by the lady, who was trying to be a "Soldier" and was trained to ingore all feelings of the flesh. It was sad to watch. I felt sorry for the young man. If I had been 22 and not 42 I would have been in the same place that he was.

Oh, I also had a female trainee die in my arms...almost, but I carried her to the ambulance. She died soon after. Women could not take the heat while humping heavy packs! We lost quite a few women as heat casualities. So what did the army do? Why they lightened the loads of course! So the men too carried less which reduced the effectiveness of their training.

When men are in combat their relationships with women should be in the abstract. When the bullets are flying having women around is a distraction that they do not need.

[King Brown]

Speaking only from experience as a reporter covering mean places with mortar and directed fire all around, female colleagues did perfectly well and if truth be known may have been a calming influence to get our heads in gear. In Afghanistan, our women soldiers participated in the heat of battles, and Capt. Nicole Goddard, almost a neighbour, was decapitated while directing artillery fire against Taliban. I'd demean her by describing her looks. Just say you could take her anywhere. She would have been be an adornment in salons of the world.

With profound respect for your country and military, the US has been a slow learner in what works and doesn't, who can serve and can't serve their country. It has been isolating itself from the realities of war to the extent of now endangering its own survival. It is learning that technological superiority doesn’t necessarily convert into military success. It is coming to terms that the cost of wars of choice aren’t worth it. As Gates said on his departure, anyone contemplating another of these things "needs their head examined."

Canada, which paid dearly for choosing Afghanistan's most dangerous sector in Kandahar and which your country has now taken over, regards its women as equals in all branches of the services. The results speak for themselves. US elite forces welcomed us as partners in combined operations in Afghanistan, particularly sniping assignments. I also found that any notions of chivalry disappear under fire. Thank god yours and ours are coming home.

[Steve McCarty]

Speaking only from experience as a reporter covering mean places with mortar and directed fire all around, female colleagues did perfectly well and if truth be known may have been a calming influence to get our heads in gear. In Afghanistan, our women soldiers participated in the heat of battles, and Capt. Nicole Goddard, almost a neighbour, was decapitated while directing artillery fire against Taliban. I'd demean her by describing her looks. Just say you could take her anywhere. She would have been be an adornment in salons of the world.

With profound respect for your country and military, the US has been a slow learner in what works and doesn't, who can serve and can't serve their country. It has been isolating itself from the realities of war to the extent of now endangering its own survival. It is learning that technological superiority doesn’t necessarily convert into military success. It is coming to terms that the cost of wars of choice aren’t worth it. As Gates said on his departure, anyone contemplating another of these things "needs their head examined."

Canada, which paid dearly for choosing Afghanistan's most dangerous sector in Kandahar and which your country has now taken over, regards its women as equals in all branches of the services. The results speak for themselves. US elite forces welcomed us as partners in combined operations in Afghanistan, particularly sniping assignments. I also found that any notions of chivalry disappear under fire. Thank god yours and ours are coming home.

Thank you for your informative post. My experience in war and training for war ended when the desert wars opened up and I just barely was able to observe women in combat roles. I never saw any in actual combat (other than nurses. I was flying A-4's at the time.) Obviously your experience is more current and to the issue than was mine. During the VN War the only females that I recall where in S-1 or the nurse's corps. There were none in cockpits. That took another decade.

The felicity of war is beyond me. While compelling, the magnitude of the question is boggling.

Sad to hear about Capt. Goddard.

[Bill Murphy]

King, you might comment on Mr. McCarty's comment "I googled you and find that you did extensive work with women in military." I have a feeling he is trusting google a bit too much. I am a bit uncomfortable with this exchange on the PGCA site since we are dealing with a discussion about anti semitism and the situation in Europe and "dropping out of the Communist Party because of anti semitism". Some of us see even more important reasons for dropping out of the CP, like their record of slaughtering their own citizens and a few other minor transgressions like improper transfer of property. Let's explain our conversation here or delete it, which I will do when the time is right. I have nothing against ABT or GS, but we don't need to glorify them or their politics on a Parker gun website. If either one of you fellows wants to debate the politics of Toklas, Stein, Dos Passos, or, for that matter, Werner Von Braun, we'll meet somewhere, buy a good supply of whiskey, or whisky, and sit down for a long weekend. Not here.

[Don Kaas]

The Kingsley Browne (with an "e") who writes about women in the military is from Detroit and professor at Wayne State. Mr Brown, the waterfowling Canadian double gun enthusiast and son of an apparent ex-Communist, is from Nova Scotia. This should not be hard to differentiate...in every one of his posts "our King" flys the Maple Leaf quite proudly. I am afraid I can not compete with tea with Alice and Gertrude. My late wife's maternal uncle, Cyril was a blacklisted Hollywood director whose "name was named"...he later went on to direct "Zulu". That's the best I can do in the lefty department althought for all the years I knew him in London, Uncle Cy wasn't too "lefty". He was Jewish however so Papa Brown might have supported him on two "fronts"...Bill- do these Jewish and Communist associations bar me from the PGCA? Please let me know...

[George Lander]

Getting back to the subject of Hemingway and his guns,I have also been reading the book and as the book makes clear, Papa was a hunter and a shooter and not a collector. His guns, for the most part, were well used and well cared for. I did not find a reference to his owning a Parker although one picture in the book with him in the company of Gary Cooper it shows Cooper carrying a Parker (which could have been Papa's)

A great movie to watch is "Islands in the Stream" in which George C. Scott plays the role of Papa, although with a different name. David Hemmings plays the rummey friend who won a BAR in a poker game and uses it to kill a shark that was after one of Papa's sons.

Best Regards, George

[King Brown]

I've no desire to stir things about CP or anti-Semitism. Steve wondered about those Paris days. It was a strange time when so many eyes were wide-closed to the dark sides of fascism and communism, both here and in the US. As for the Jews, my grandmother was a British Israelite who thought the British were one of the lost tribes of Israel. And I'm the great grandson of a full-blood Mi'kmaq whom the British tried to exterminate in the wars against France. An ancestor participated in the burning of the White House in retaliation for US destroying Toronto. The Americans of shared blood, kin and values made me a Canadian with Jefferson's invasion of Canada in 1812 which Canada is celebrating at great expense this year. For all that, the USA is my most admired other country as I've hitherto revealed. As for women in combat, let's not forget the gutsy guerilla of For Whom The Bell Tolls.

[Bill Murphy]

Don and King, I was just trying to redirect Steve to the "correct Mr. B" as Don has done. Google is a dangerous weapon in some cases, but this was obviously an honest mistake on Steve's part.

[King Brown]

Bill, my father and I with same names worked the same craft. We decided there would be no Jr qualifier. Let the world think we had seven-league boots, appearing here and there throughout the world like the Scarlet Pimpernel. Our interests were so wide and varied there was confusion, of course. My son has the same name. Still no Jr which we consider a little over the top, an affectation. We let people think what they want to think, to hell with it. To keep to our sporting interests, I'm told Kingsley in Old English means King's Wood (of birds and animals for the monarch's pleasure). My grandmother admired Charles Kingsley. I imagine you've gone through the same with Bill Murphy. Regards, King

[Bill Murphy]

King, my Grandfather was William Murphy, who was a community leader, owned a couple of businesses, one a "cafe", one a distributorship of alcoholic beverages. He also ran a pigeon ring. I, as you, am not anything but the same name as my Grandfather, without embellishment. However, Steve mistook you for someone who is not related to you in any way, an error in trusting google.com as Don mentioned.

[Steve McCarty]

Don and King, I was just trying to redirect Steve to the "correct Mr. B" as Don has done. Google is a dangerous weapon in some cases, but this was obviously an honest mistake on Steve's part.

Thanks for the heads up. I never, ever try to ruffle feathers. I am just chatting and thinking, nothing more. I enjoy a free exchange of ideas and I yearn for discussion with people who have either "been there" or who know something. I find small talk drab. Mr. Brown's comments have been extremely interesting to me and have caused me to think and then re-think.

Hotchner in Hemingway's Guns which I read again last night said that Hem did not like overly fancy guns, but we've all seen that amazing O/U shotgun. According to the same source the W.C. Scott 12 gauge was not a very fancy gun, but a workhorse. A long barreled pigeon gun.

Hem had a fine collection of guns. It would have been fun to stand with him, G & T in hand, and listen to him as he took them down one at a time and told a story about each. None of us, I think, admire the man in a hero worship sort of way, but rather we find him compelling and for many valid reasons.

As for the appropriateness our discussions? I haven't had so much fun behind a key board for quite some time.

[Robert Delk]

"Snows of Kilimanjaro" was probably the first movie I ever saw as a child. My mother was a fan of EH and took us when it came out.I read some of his books as a child also. I read "The Old Man and the Sea" when it came out and my mom bought a copy. I wonder if my early love of fishing was encouraged by that book.I suppose he "postured" some,many men do, and thought of himself as tougher than he actually was.Something else we are prone to do. "Everybody wants to be a bad ass" as we used to say in my outfit in Vietnam.The truth of combat,with enough of it, would have soon dispelled any thoughts of finding "glory" in it. I still like EH,I grew up with his books, but his reputation as a bully and "wantabe" put me off. I understand him some as we fought some of the same battles of family and emotional issues and am very sorry he could not find the help he needed.

[Larry Stauch]

As we sit around the fire, that the internet has created, listing to the stories told by men of varying experiences it certainly provokes thought and ideas and opinions....

[Steve McCarty]

I just googled the Hemingway Society. It takes Hemingway lore to another level.

[Steve McCarty]

My wife gave me my copy of Hemingway's Guns for Christmas. I rooted through my gun collection to see how many Hemingway guns I own. I had one Model 12, an early 20gauge with a Power Pac hung on its end. I have the three screw in chokes, Long Range, Mid-Range and Short Range so I thought it would be okay. Like many Browning designs old John liked to utilize the energy of recoil. Even the Model 12, a pump of course, used recoil to unlock the action after the shot. If one dry fires the shotgun you have to push forward on the pump handle, which mimics recoil and unlocks the action. Otherwise you can't get the pump to cycle. That Power Pac afixed to the muzzle of the little 20, which is like new, takes so much kick out of the gun that it will not cycle! That's why the gun looks so new. It wasn't used. I'm not sure what to do. That Power Pac has a one inch gap between the end of the muzzle to where the load enters the choking chamber. Will a plastic wad strip off as it makes the jump?

I'm not sure what I should do. If I chop the Power Pac off then the barrel will be 23 inches long. With the Power Pac afixed it's 28, which I like. I might removed the choke and thread the barrel, and screw in a choke device that extends from the muzzle and re-afix the Power Pac. This will reduce the gap the load has to jump, but it'd be expensive to do.

[Steve McCarty]

Since I read about Hemingway's model 12's I now own three 12 gauge guns, one a 1923 Nickle Steel full choke, a like new 1962 12 mod, and a beat up one that I've opened to IC. I have a 1938 16 full, that fits me like a glove. So I'm pretty well Model 12'vd.

EH owned just two model 12's. His first a 1928 gun that after thirty years of heavy use, he declared worn out. It was sent back to A & F to sell. The other he bought from a bell boy that had a choking device. I think he bought in 1958.

BTW: If any of you have a Model 12, 12 gauge that is worn the point that the barrel wiggles, Brownell's stocks a shim that will tighten up the gun like new. Same part works for a 97.

Sure I love my Parkers. But the Win Mod 12 with it's machined solid steel receiver is pretty darn neat too.

[Dave Suponski]

Steve, Other than my beloved Parkers the only other shotgun I own is a Model 12 two barrel set.

[Steve McCarty]

EH's first model 12 was a 1928 gun. I went out to locate one. This is the one I bought. It was cheap...$250. It is a 1923 gun marked Nickel Steel. I lengthened the chambers and eased the forcing cone just for grins. I like the wear on this gun. I seldom reblue a gun. If it works it's fine with me.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/P1010576.jpg

[Daryl Corona]

Nice gun Steve. Like my Parkers and Foxes, my M12 ,2 barrel solid rib gun has character. I just love the machining and the work put into them. They flat out point with no effort. Thanks to a good friend it now sports a straight grip which makes it point even better.

[charlie cleveland]

steve leave that old kickin device alone on the barrel just buy another gun....they aint a handful of them barrel kick reducers left in this old world.... charlie

[John Campbell]

Mr. Delk:
As a young man, my goal was to live a life at least half as bold and adventurous as Papa's. So far, I can truthfully say I've fallen short. But not for lack of trying.

Best, Kensal

[Bill Murphy]

Steve, don't cut off the Pachmayr Power Pac. It is a great choke device. The wads do not get stuck in the chokes. I have the Power Pac on a Model 42 and it works just fine.

[Robert Delk]

I suppose if you count the times I have been shot at and the adventures and misadventures with the opposite sex I have had a fair run but being an adrenalin junkie takes a toll and missing the rush puts you in much the same spot as EH:Wondering is there anything left worth sticking around for.

[ed good]

"Wondering is there anything left worth sticking around for. "


robert:

check out the sun rise. and then the sun set. and anything that pleases you in between.

ed

[Steve McCarty]

Steve, don't cut off the Pachmayr Power Pac. It is a great choke device. The wads do not get stuck in the chokes. I have the Power Pac on a Model 42 and it works just fine.

Thanks Bill! I'll have to take a picture of the gun and that Power Pac. The device is beautifully made with a wonderful blue and obvious fine machining. Most people don't have the additional screw in chokes. I do. I don't know why my little Model 12 20 doesn't cycle. EH poured his Model 12 full of oil. Patrick Hem said it puffed oil smoke on every shot. I usually shoot my guns pretty dry. Maybe I should slick my little 20 up a bit.

I've only shot my 20 at hand tossed skeet and it was frustrating to shoot, never knowning if it'd cycle or not. I put it down in disgust and wanged away with my old Knickerbacher DU 20. I think it's a Baker. It's a side lock gun and was my dad's, given to him, used, when he was ten.

[Steve McCarty]

Mr. Delk:
As a young man, my goal was to live a life at least half as bold and adventurous as Papa's. So far, I can truthfully say I've fallen short. But not for lack of trying.

Best, Kensal

I did the same, but probably some of my EH motivation was subliminal. I read my first EH book when I was about 15 and within a few years I had pretty much read them all. I still can't get through Death In the Afternoon, but I love the title.

I also read Boyington's Ba Ba Blacksheep and a few years later I was flying in that squadron. This was taken just before I joined VMA-214
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Skyhawks/Skyhawks003.jpg

[ed good]

steve: could be a little gunk build up behind the shell stop? try squarting it with a fast drying silicone spray...if that does not work, maybe the shell stop is bent. anyway, if you want to solve problem professionally, let me know via private post and i will refer you to a gunsmith with the skill and experience to fix it. ed

[Steve McCarty]

steve: could be a little gunk build up behind the shell stop? try squarting it with a fast drying silicone spray...if that does not work, maybe the shell stop is bent. anyway, if you want to solve problem professionally, let me know via private post and i will refer you to a gunsmith with the skill and experience to fix it. ed

Gun is in the safe. I'll dig it out and mess with it. I'll also take some pics. I've got a pretty good Model 12 gunsmith close by. He's done some work on them for me before. He's got two right now.

Thanks again.

[John Campbell]

Delk & McCarthy:
Kudos to you both. And no... there is little left hanging around for. Everything is a disappointment in the end. Papa knew that. And he sadly decided to deal with it. But please excuse me. I might have had a pint. And I'm in the same business he was. On the other hand, "cheers!" Why the heck not!

Best, Kensal

[Steve McCarty]

Delk & McCarthy:
Kudos to you both. And no... there is little left hanging around for. Everything is a disappointment in the end. Papa knew that. And he sadly decided to deal with it. But please excuse me. I might have had a pint. And I'm in the same business he was. On the other hand, "cheers!" Why the heck not!

Best, Kensal

The existential concept, that life is what one makes of it, may have been the source of EH's "get'r done" motif. I find his masculinity, which has fallen from vogue in the US today, refreshing. I think he killed himself because his over the top male image, which was so important to his make up, had slipped. In addition his thinking may have been muddled.

Is there something worth "hanging around for"? In the mind of the existentialist, there is only if one is capable of making life worth living. EH thought not. He blew the entire top of his head off. His death provided a stange sort of continuiety with his beginning and middle. He went out in a flash of gunfire and gore, somehow it fits.

[Mills Morrison]

This is a good thread and has me interested in getting the Hemingway book now.

[charlie cleveland]

boys if these parker threads dont want to make you hang around then......lifes to short as it is im trying to enjoy every moment even though a rock gets in the road every once in a while... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

This is a good thread and has me interested in getting the Hemingway book now.

EH's life is compelling because so many "real men" would like to mimic Hemingway's. Certainly Hem thought that he lived a near perfect existance, but did he? That is the rub and to find out if he did, many of us are drawn to his writings and bios.

I think it was Hotchner, a Hemingway Pal and a biographer, who said, "All real men either want to be like Hemingway, or be liked by him." I wonder. But I have to admit, I would have enjoyed hunting with him and running around the Carib hunting for Nazi subs and attending bull fights sitting next to him listening to his running dialogue.

Was Hem a "nice guy"? Not sure. I suspect that he only liked people who also liked him.

[George Lander]

EH always struck me as being the same as the principal male character in his writings. Somewhat aloof, a hard drinker & womanizer and very hard on the few friends that he had. His life and thoughts were, for the most part, contained within himself and very seldom did he allow others to see the true EH. JMHO

George

[Steve McCarty]

EH always struck me as being the same as the principal male character in his writings. Somewhat aloof, a hard drinker & womanizer and very hard on the few friends that he had. His life and thoughts were, for the most part, contained within himself and very seldom did he allow others to see the true EH. JMHO

George

Hem was a self made creation. He taught us who he either was, or decided he wanted to be. He was also "full of himself", something that makes him seem borish today. In his day a man's man was accepted, sadly not so much in the modern era.

Did he keep his real self secret? I don't think he had much to hide. He wasn't for instance, a closet gay, or cross dressor (as was one of his sons). I do think he was a braggart and demanded that his friends genuflect before his throne.

Would he be fun to partner with on a hunt? Only if one loved and admired him. Since I don't, I think the outing would be problematic. I think Ruark would have been easier to get along with while on safari. Not sure I could handle his bush martini's tho...warm gin served in a plastic cup....with lunch.

[John Campbell]

Steve:
Whoever Hemingway "was," he was certainly a man of importance, as this thread testifies. And a damn good writer. Ruark, on the other hand, fancied himself a bush league Hemingway -- but never quite lived up to Papa's towering image.
Nonetheless, warm gin is better than no gin. Cup composition aside.

Best, Kensal

[Steve McCarty]

Steve:
Whoever Hemingway "was," he was certainly a man of importance, as this thread testifies. And a damn good writer. Ruark, on the other hand, fancied himself a bush league Hemingway -- but never quite lived up to Papa's towering image.
Nonetheless, warm gin is better than no gin. Cup composition aside.

Best, Kensal

Yes indeed Hem lived a larger than life, life. So, but to a lessor extent, did Ruark. I agree that Ruark felt as if he lived and worked in Hem's shadow and one seldom considers him without comparing him to EH. Last year and for the third time I re-read most of what both men wrote. I found Hem somewhat dated and Ruark not so much. Some, IMHO of Hem's work is unreadable, Death In the Afternoon being one that I have never been able to dig through. Nor have I been able to stick with Ruark's The Honey Badger.

Ruark's best is Something of Value and I love the work. Hem's early books I read for their style, the stories IMHO hackneyed. My fave Hem book is one of his least important, A Moveable Feast which has been published in several versions....the latest is the best.

I think that both men were great writers and maybe great men. Hem is unique and people will be reading about him for a lot time to come. Stephen Crane was a better writer than either tho. So was Fitzgerald when in his prime.

[Steve McCarty]

Of all of the men's men who many of use enjoy considering and reading about my very favorite is the Englishmen, Sir Richard Burton....not the movie star; the other one. He is not very well known today, but in his time he was. Neither Speak nor Stanley were slouches either. Some think Stanley was an American (He fought and was wounded at Shiloh), but he was not. He was an orphaned English runaway.

The Devil Drives tells us about Burton. Quite an amazing story.

[Mark Ouellette]

I think that we should remember that great men are but men and have the same failings as do we all. Hemingway's stories inspired me to write many decades ago and for that I am thankful. If I had known him personally I may not have respected him. If I were however I bigger man I would have forgave him his shortcomings.

[Steve McCarty]

I think that we should remember that great men are but men and have the same failings as do we all. Hemingway's stories inspired me to write many decades ago and for that I am thankful. If I had known him personally I may not have respected him. If I were however I bigger man I would have forgave him his shortcomings.

I am a bit of a writer too and I have also been influenced by HEM. I like the "no guts, no glory" persona of the man. I have often wondered if I'd like to be around HEM. To this day, I don't know if I would or not.

But really now, wouldn't it have been fun to run around in the Carib with a couple of Tommy Guns hunting for UBoats? Might dabble in some fishing too.

Pappy Boyington's book Ba Ba Blacksheep inspired me to join the Corps to become a fighter pilot and I actually did become a member of VMA 214! (VMFA today).

[David Lien]

Ernest Hemingway's Birthday July 21 1898. Hapy birthday Ernest.
David

[Steve McCarty]

Hhttp://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/P1010576.jpgEM's model 12 looked something like this:

His gun was made in 1928. Mine, shown here came from the factory in 1923, but the wear looks about like Ernie's gun.

[Andy Kelley]

I don't think Hemingway was ever happy starting with a very troubled childhood including being dressed like a girl and watching his mother ( a repressed and somewhat closeted lesbian ) berate his father on a daily basis. A good case could also be made that he suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as a result of his combat wounding in Italy. Like many angry vets he sought solace in booze, women and brawling in a primitive attempt to deal with the devils inside. Man, could that write.

[Grantham Forester]

Getting back to the subject of Hemingway and his guns,I have also been reading the book and as the book makes clear, Papa was a hunter and a shooter and not a collector. His guns, for the most part, were well used and well cared for. I did not find a reference to his owning a Parker although one picture in the book with him in the company of Gary Cooper it shows Cooper carrying a Parker (which could have been Papa's)

A great movie to watch is "Islands in the Stream" in which George C. Scott plays the role of Papa, although with a different name. David Hemmings plays the rummey friend who won a BAR in a poker game and uses it to kill a shark that was after one of Papa's sons.

Best Regards, George--The same eulogy that Ernest Hemingway wrote in 1939 for his Idaho friend, who died in a duck hunting accident near Silver Creek, could as well have been his own in 1961. I was still in HS when he took his own life, we had read both "Big Two-Hearted River" and "The Snows of Kilamanjaro" as part of English Lit. back then. He had a flair for picking great titles. I was editor of our HS paper my Senior year, and always respected his solid background as a reporter and a correspondent.

I have an older Model 12, as apparently he did, and this excerpt from the book "The Idaho Hemingway" by Tillie Arnold speaks to his views on guns as working tools for a hunter: "Ernest and Lloyd were opening up the gun cases, removing guns, and I saw Lloyd (Tillie Arnold's husband) pick up a Winchester Model 12 pump shotgun. As he did so, he told Ernest that he also owned one. But I could see that Lloyd was shocked when he opening and closed the breech.--' It rattled, it's action was loose, oil sprayed out of the action and the stock had a major split, so loose it almost fell off. ' Ernest noticed Lloyd's attention to the loose stock and said ' I'll bet your Model 12 isn't as beat up as mine. ' 'Ernest, this stock is a bit loose. ' Ernest replied ' Yeah, we gotta get her tightened up, Chief-- I can't operate without this old stopper."

This was in September 1939, a month or so before the tragic death of Gene Van Guilder. Going back to the Model 12 from an earlier 1933 occurance, the fire at the Pfeiffer (Hemingway's second wife, Pauline Pfeiffer, heiress to the Richard Hudnut cosmetics wealth) farm in Piggott, AK-- and from his later published book about Africa- "True at First Light"-- pg. 240: "I had the old, well-loved, once burnt up, three times restocked, worn smooth old Winchester model 12 pump gun that was faster than a snake, and was from 35 years of us being together (1928-1953), almost as close a friend and companion with secrets shared and triumphs and disasters not revealed as the other friends a man has all his life"--

I find this quote reveals both Hemingway's credo that "Guns are to shoot, and to shoot with well" and also the same affection that a man would have with his hunting dogs.

[Grantham Forester]

Steve:
Whoever Hemingway "was," he was certainly a man of importance, as this thread testifies. And a damn good writer. Ruark, on the other hand, fancied himself a bush league Hemingway -- but never quite lived up to Papa's towering image.
Nonetheless, warm gin is better than no gin. Cup composition aside.

Best, Kensal Well said indeed. Two somewhat "obscure" books written about Ernest Hemingway that are quite telling, IMO anyway: "Hemingway in Cuba" by Hilary Hemingway and Carlene Brennen and "The True Gen" by Denis Brian. Strange that in mentioning Robert Ruark, who died in Spain in 1965, no body has mentioned his "The Old Man and The Boy" series for Field and Stream. Top shelf work there. And his "The Honey Badger" has Alex Barr as Ruark with his hand-to-mouth existence as a newspaperman, as much as Hemingway's "Islands In The Stream" has Thomas Hudson (painter) as Hemingway's alter ego.

[Grantham Forester]

yeah or sumpthun

:nono: Alice B. Toklas and Pauline Pfeiffer's sister Jinny were both Lesbians, back at the time when homosexuality was a dark dirty secret. There is a theory that one reason for Hemingway's youngest son, Gregory (aka- GiGi) turned out so "mixed up' about his sexual orientation is the great amount of time he spent in the care of Jinny Pfeiffer, while his mother and father were away on jaunts. Unlike Pauline's super wealthy uncle Gustavus Pfeiffer, who favored Ernest and Pauline with funds to: Take their first trip to Africa-- order the Wheeler fishing boat named the Pilar, purchased several new cars and also bought the house in Key West on Whitehead street for them, Jinny hated Ernest and did apparently try to be a divisive force in their troubled marriage. The best read on this is Bernice Kert's novel "The Hemingway Women", she did her research very well indeed.

[David Lien]

Grantham: A mile east of Sun Valley is where the Ernest Hemingway Memorial is located. The inscription reads

Best of all he loved the fall
The leaves yellow on the cottonwoods
Leaves floating on the trout streams
and above the hills
The high blue windless skies
now he will be part of them forever.


This is part of the eulogy that Ernest Hemingway gave for Gen Van Guilder in 1939.
Grantham I did enjoy your posts. Thank you

PS I will post up some more Idaho imformation later when I get "un busy".Wife Mary has a "job jar " with my name on it. and the fish are Bitin
David Lien

[Andy Kelley]

I can see the headlines now PGCA IS COVER GROUP FOR LITERARY SCHOLARS ....in my humble opinion if you want to see photos of Hemingway with shotguns and not be burdened by wading through photos of Africa ,then you can't go wrong with High On The Wild With Hemingway which does a nice job of illustrating the bird shooting in Sun Valley when it was not developed.Some members might cringe since it shows him in many photos with a Browning Superposed. I have only been a member for four days but I think my mind is on overload.

[Grantham Forester]

I can see the headlines now PGCA IS COVER GROUP FOR LITERARY SCHOLARS ....in my humble opinion if you want to see photos of Hemingway with shotguns and not be burdened by wading through photos of Africa ,then you can't go wrong with High On The Wild With Hemingway which does a nice job of illustrating the bird shooting in Sun Valley when it was not developed.Some members might cringe since it shows him in many photos with a Browning Superposed. I have only been a member for four days but I think my mind is on overload.-- My wife grew up in Emmett- about 2 hours drive from the Sun Valley complex. I have read the book "High On The Wild With Hemingway", and like the Tillie Arnold book, it shows Hemingway loving the area, because he- and stars like his pal Gary Cooper were not given special treatment, they we accepted as regular folks and avid sportsmen. One telling story about Hemingway- they enjoyed great pheasant, duck and dove hunting on area farms and ranches. On one, the farmer and his family had been hard hit by the Depression and the plague of jackrabbits that devoured his crops- so not only did Hemingway organized great rabbit hunts, he also paid to have the farmer's truck overhauled by a local mechanic- his way, I suppose, of saying "Thanks" for letting us hunt on your property. Possibly in tribute to his new-founded love of Idaho, Hemingway named one of his many cats "Boise"!!

[Steve McCarty]

I don't think Hemingway was ever happy starting with a very troubled childhood including being dressed like a girl and watching his mother ( a repressed and somewhat closeted lesbian ) berate his father on a daily basis. A good case could also be made that he suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as a result of his combat wounding in Italy. Like many angry vets he sought solace in booze, women and brawling in a primitive attempt to deal with the devils inside. Man, could that write.

All young boys were dressed as girls in the early 20th Century, or Little Lord Fantleroy (sp) which may have been worse.

I doubt that Ernie suffered from PTS, nor do I think as many people suffer from it today as some think. We all jumped when a car backfired and had nightmares, but those things lesson to tolerable levels. Ernie loved telling stories of his wounds and would give lectures holding up his bloody trousers. If he had been uncomfortable with the experience he would have kept mum.

Indeed Hem's family suffered from mental problems, probably depression, maybe bi-polar. Mother a lesbian? I doubt it. Father hen pecked? I don't know. I think Ernie enjoyed his childhood, the hunting, fishing/camping and he said he loved his dad. Ernie was not a closet gay, but some to this day think he was.

Was he a vet finding solace in booze? Maybe, but there are many non-vets who do the same and in reality he did not experience much combat. A morter round did impact close buy, but only one and few experienced PTS unless they suffered through many hits over a prolonged period of time. Leslie Howard was seriously shell shocked after suffering near misses over an extended period of time, many did. One near miss? A piece of cake.

I do think, however; that at some point Ernie slipped into some form of insanity and it came on late in his life. I suspect after his two plane wrecks, but during his 20's through his early 50's he was pretty much in control and frankly having a wonderful time. Hem was always in love with Hem and he was insulted if others didn't follow his lead. This did not require insanity, but his ego was....well.......amazing. So is Obama's, is he nuts too?

Like Billy the Kid, Americans are somehow captivated by Hemingway, and I am one of them. When I find an article about Hem I read it with gusto. As for Billy the Kid? Just ask me.

[Steve McCarty]

-- My wife grew up in Emmett- about 2 hours drive from the Sun Valley complex. I have read the book "High On The Wild With Hemingway", and like the Tillie Arnold book, it shows Hemingway loving the area, because he- and stars like his pal Gary Cooper were not given special treatment, they we accepted as regular folks and avid sportsmen.

Isn't it ironic, that what celebrities seek-celebrity, also drives them crazy and they try hard to avoid acclaim. I have never been to Ketchum, but I read that his home there was no great shakes and really a few slabs of concrete pushed up. Have you seen it? If so, what was your impression of the place?

Hem loved to shoot his Winchester and his Model 12 was loose as a goose and over oiled. He replaced the stock as least once and after it aged, and was shot, it spit out a fine mist of oil.

I have a friend who says that if he could come back, he'd like to come back as Sinatra. I'd rather be Hemingway....at least for his first 50 years or so.

BTW: If I could come back as anyone, I'd want to return as Ben Franklin, but I'd shoot more that he did.

[Steve McCarty]

I can see the headlines now PGCA IS COVER GROUP FOR LITERARY SCHOLARS ....in my humble opinion if you want to see photos of Hemingway with shotguns and not be burdened by wading through photos of Africa ,then you can't go wrong with High On The Wild With Hemingway which does a nice job of illustrating the bird shooting in Sun Valley when it was not developed.Some members might cringe since it shows him in many photos with a Browning Superposed. I have only been a member for four days but I think my mind is on overload.

I bought an ancient, beat up Superposed just because Hem shot one, but didn't he also shoot that O/U Beretta a bunch too? The guns look similar.

Those Superposed used to be the cat's meow. I guess they have fallen from favor today. Is it their weight? Are they considered overly complex?

[Steve McCarty]

I can see the headlines now PGCA IS COVER GROUP FOR LITERARY SCHOLARS ....in my humble opinion if you want to see photos of Hemingway with shotguns and not be burdened by wading through photos of Africa ,then you can't go wrong with High On The Wild With Hemingway which does a nice job of illustrating the bird shooting in Sun Valley when it was not developed.Some members might cringe since it shows him in many photos with a Browning Superposed. I have only been a member for four days but I think my mind is on overload.

CONGRATULATIONS Andy, I'll bet you have a ball. Good shooting too.

[Steve McCarty]

Alice B. Toklas and Pauline Pfeiffer's sister Jinny were both Lesbians, back at the time when homosexuality was a dark dirty secret. There is a theory that one reason for Hemingway's youngest son, Gregory (aka- GiGi) turned out so "mixed up' about his sexual orientation is the great amount of time he spent in the care of Jinny Pfeiffer, while his mother and father were away on jaunts. Unlike Pauline's super wealthy uncle Gustavus Pfeiffer, who favored Ernest and Pauline with funds to: Take their first trip to Africa-- order the Wheeler fishing boat named the Pilar, purchased several new cars and also bought the house in Key West on Whitehead street for them, Jinny hated Ernest and did apparently try to be a divisive force in their troubled marriage. The best read on this is Bernice Kert's novel "The Hemingway Women", she did her research very well indeed.

You wrote of several things that I did not know. Thanx.

I just Finished Valerie Hemingway's book about her life with the "Hemingway Men". She was Hem's final secretary and also married Gregory "Gigi", meeting him at Hem's funeral. Gigi was a cross dresser from his early life (according to Valerie), which was probably why Hem disowned him - refused to mention his name, etc...

I wonder if there is a reason that people become cross dressors, or do they just have a hankering to do such a thing? Probably varies with the individual. Gigi took it to extremes, having a sex change operation and changing his name to Gloria. Weird. He died in a women's jail.

[Steve McCarty]

--The same eulogy that Ernest Hemingway wrote in 1939 for his Idaho friend, who died in a duck hunting accident near Silver Creek, could as well have been his own in 1961. I was still in HS when he took his own life, we had read both "Big Two-Hearted River" and "The Snows of Kilamanjaro" as part of English Lit. back then. He had a flair for picking great titles. I was editor of our HS paper my Senior year, and always respected his solid background as a reporter and a correspondent.

I have an older Model 12, as apparently he did, and this excerpt from the book "The Idaho Hemingway" by Tillie Arnold speaks to his views on guns as working tools for a hunter: "Ernest and Lloyd were opening up the gun cases, removing guns, and I saw Lloyd (Tillie Arnold's husband) pick up a Winchester Model 12 pump shotgun. As he did so, he told Ernest that he also owned one. But I could see that Lloyd was shocked when he opening and closed the breech.--' It rattled, it's action was loose, oil sprayed out of the action and the stock had a major split, so loose it almost fell off. ' Ernest noticed Lloyd's attention to the loose stock and said ' I'll bet your Model 12 isn't as beat up as mine. ' 'Ernest, this stock is a bit loose. ' Ernest replied ' Yeah, we gotta get her tightened up, Chief-- I can't operate without this old stopper."

This was in September 1939, a month or so before the tragic death of Gene Van Guilder. Going back to the Model 12 from an earlier 1933 occurance, the fire at the Pfeiffer (Hemingway's second wife, Pauline Pfeiffer, heiress to the Richard Hudnut cosmetics wealth) farm in Piggott, AK-- and from his later published book about Africa- "True at First Light"-- pg. 240: "I had the old, well-loved, once burnt up, three times restocked, worn smooth old Winchester model 12 pump gun that was faster than a snake, and was from 35 years of us being together (1928-1953), almost as close a friend and companion with secrets shared and triumphs and disasters not revealed as the other friends a man has all his life"--

I find this quote reveals both Hemingway's credo that "Guns are to shoot, and to shoot with well" and also the same affection that a man would have with his hunting dogs.

Beautiful post.

[charlie cleveland]

some really deep and good thinking here.... charlie

[Grantham Forester]

Hemingway described with unusual knowledge and authority physical pleasure, the natural world, violent experiences, and sudden death. He portrayed the heroic possibilities and tragic consequences of wars, the psychic dislocation in battle, and the stoicism of survival. He created unsurpassed images of Italy, France, Spain, and Africa. As a man, he had intense idealism, curiosity, energy, strength, and courage. He attractively combined hedonism and hard work, was a great teacher of ritual and technique, carried an aura of glamor and power. As an artist, he wrote as naturally as a hawk flies and as clearly as a lake reflects."

Ernest Hemingway died 51 years ago this month. IMO, he, and one other American writer, who also had a newspaper reporter's training, have been enduring influences on the entire field of literature, and will be so for as long as man takes pen to paper. The other writer is Samuel Langhorn Clemens.

[Andy Kelley]

Steve , i humbly disagree with some of the points you raised about my comments and would ask you to condsider , with an open mind, my response.Hemingway was dressed as a girl not to fit in with fashion but because his mother wanted twin girls.This was a fantasy she was very open about.Hemingway had nightmares at Christmas because he was afraid Santa would think he was a girl and bring him girl toys. As I remember it Hemingways mother moved a female student into their house because she was in love with her. You can imagine what this did to his fathers self esteem. Your comments about his wounds not being too much to be concerned with are open to a further debate. I must assume that you like me are a combat vet and have a valid point of view. I can only say that a mortar attack is frightening event and stays with you for a long time .Hemingways uniform was shredded and his body filled with shrapnel.We really don't know a lot about PTSD and there is no hard and fast rule about who is vulnerable to the after effects of combat. When viet nam vets came back early from the war and complained of hearing voices and screaming in their heads they were incorrectly diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia .Little did the doctors know that real past experiences of combat were being replayed in their heads. Hemingway was diagnosed as bipolar and I think the episodes of fighting and boozing during his manic stages are very well documented. I rest my case and will now open the Bourbon and go to sleep.

[Grantham Forester]

There was no question during WW1, when Italy was NOT an ally of Germany, unlike WW11, about Hemingway's courage. He lied about his age by one year and tried to get into the US Army, but was turned down due to poor eyesight, mainly in his right eye. So he volunteered for the Red Cross as an ambulance driver, received a commission as a Lt. by the Italian Army, and went under heavy fire to rescue two Italian soldiers wounded by German mortar fire. Both his legs were filled with shrapnel, and he recuperated in an Italian hospital (later the theme in "A Farewell To Arms") and fell in love with a nurse who tended to his wounds. His short story "Soldier's Home" may speak to what we now commonly call PTSD.

Hemingway's mother, Grace Hall, was a somewhat talented opera singer and musician, about in the order of German opera singer Gertrude Schenk. She lived across the street from Dr. Hemingway, who had his medical practice in his home, and after a courtship, they were married. She dominated Dr. Hemingway in their marriage and the five children they had together, two boys: Ernest, and his 15 year old junior brother, Leicester, the last of the litter. Both Ernest, Leicester, his father Dr. Clarence Hemingway and later Hemingway's third son, Gregory-- committed suicide.

In one of his stories about his boyhood in Oak Park, Hemingway detailed his mother's callous disregard for her husband. He had just returned from a hunting trip (he was a superb wingshot with hawk-like vision, unlike Ernest) and while he was gone Grace threw out all his bottled collection of bird and animal specimens, plus his collection of Indian artifacts, mostly arrowheads picked up when they summered in Northern MI at their Windemeer cottage on Walloon Lake--

[charlie cleveland]

reading this makes me want to cut a hickory switch and give himmingways momma a good thrashing... charlie

[Steve McCarty]

Steve , i humbly disagree with some of the points you raised about my comments and would ask you to condsider , with an open mind, my response.Hemingway was dressed as a girl not to fit in with fashion but because his mother wanted twin girls.This was a fantasy she was very open about.Hemingway had nightmares at Christmas because he was afraid Santa would think he was a girl and bring him girl toys. As I remember it Hemingways mother moved a female student into their house because she was in love with her. You can imagine what this did to his fathers self esteem. Your comments about his wounds not being too much to be concerned with are open to a further debate. I must assume that you like me are a combat vet and have a valid point of view. I can only say that a mortar attack is frightening event and stays with you for a long time .Hemingways uniform was shredded and his body filled with shrapnel.We really don't know a lot about PTSD and there is no hard and fast rule about who is vulnerable to the after effects of combat. When viet nam vets came back early from the war and complained of hearing voices and screaming in their heads they were incorrectly diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia .Little did the doctors know that real past experiences of combat were being replayed in their heads. Hemingway was diagnosed as bipolar and I think the episodes of fighting and boozing during his manic stages are very well documented. I rest my case and will now open the Bourbon and go to sleep.

Thank you, Andy for your kind and thoughtful response. I have read several bios of Hem; Bakers, and Hotchners and I've read other biographical pieces. I read them when the works were first published...so some I read 20 years ago, and my memory, being martini soaked may be, and probably is, flawed.

Carlos Baker's book was my fave, and I think I still have it. I should re-read. Concerning the VN war, I was an attack pilot and did not spend time in the bush, as you apparently did. When we experienced the occassional rocket attack we had to get our Marines off of the roofs of their hooches because they wanted to click away with their new Japanese cameras.

The experience of war affects different people differently, and yes, HEM was badly wounded. I believe he spent a year in the hospital where he met and fell in love with his nurse, Agnes, several years his senior. I doubt he suffered from PTSD because he did not hesitate to discuss the event and was proud of it.

Nor do I see evidence of serious metal disease, as you allude to. As I posted earlier, I do believe that he experienced a mental disorder, but only late in life when he suffered brain damage by butting his head into the door of his crashed aircraft. Dura fluid leaked from his ears. Hem must have become depressed and with today's drugs he probably would have done much better than he did. He was under a doctor's care and he took drugs and shock treatments.

Hem experienced many successes which leads me to believe that he was not only sane but also in control, at least for most of his life. Hard writing requires a clear head and organized mind.

Hem was ego driven; not unique. When his self image began to falter (in his eyes) his ego was crushed. He could not tolerate the man he had become and being a man of action, he killed himself.

Which leads us to the question: Can a man with such a gigantic ego and all consuming self awareness who committed suicide also be sane? As I am sure you can tell I am no expert, my degree is in history. Was Hem tormented because he was dressed as a girl? I doubt it, because it was a common practice.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Chisum%20Family/Childrenandretakes009-Copy.jpg

This boy is John Ernest Robert, Sallie and William Robert's eldest son. Sallie was a friend of Billy the Kid. She dressed her son in a dress. He turned out fine. This boy was born in 1881.

[Andy Kelley]

Steve, you make many thoughtful remarks and I'm glad we're still friends..I think my clinical impression about the PTSD diagnosis comes mostly from my experience with VN vets in the Tucson VA hospital when I was doing an internship there. One common thread among the vets was a seemingly normal life prior to the war and then living a nightmare when they returned. Speaking about war experiences or not speaking about them really wasn't a hard and fast measurement of sound mental health. I think that it is very telling that in The Sun Also Rises the narrator, a war vet, has been emasculated due to a war wounding. Maybe that was Hemingway trying to tell us how he felt about his own war experience ....Aren't we supposed to be discussing Parkers.

[Grantham Forester]

I am going to order a copy of this book about Hemingway and his guns- from all the replies posted here, it sounds like a great read. So-- the question before us-- did the late Ernest Hemingway ever own and shoot Parkers??

[Steve McCarty]

Steve, you make many thoughtful remarks and I'm glad we're still friends..I think my clinical impression about the PTSD diagnosis comes mostly from my experience with VN vets in the Tucson VA hospital when I was doing an internship there. One common thread among the vets was a seemingly normal life prior to the war and then living a nightmare when they returned. Speaking about war experiences or not speaking about them really wasn't a hard and fast measurement of sound mental health. I think that it is very telling that in The Sun Also Rises the narrator, a war vet, has been emasculated due to a war wounding. Maybe that was Hemingway trying to tell us how he felt about his own war experience ....Aren't we supposed to be discussing Parkers.

Ahhhhh, yes; Parkers, a finely made shotgun....As for PTSD you are obviously more qualified to discuss the condition than I. I take the lead from a post and run with it and therefore am guilty of jumping off thread. I enjoy discussing interesting things and thus my journey back to Ketchum, Idaho and its quirky writer.

[Mills Morrison]

It is hard to believe, but a lot of people who like to shoot don't care about having fine guns. I have two great uncles who were great shots and avid hunters "back in the day" and who had the means to acquire fine shotguns, but who preferred Model 12's, Auto 5's etc. My Dad swears by his Winchester 101 and 870.

[Mills Morrison]

And while we are talking about great writers and great hunting stories, let's not forget my favorite . . . The Bear by William Faulkner.

[Steve McCarty]

I am going to order a copy of this book about Hemingway and his guns- from all the replies posted here, it sounds like a great read. So-- the question before us-- did the late Ernest Hemingway ever own and shoot Parkers??

He did not. Hem was married to the Winchester model 21 and owned a few. He bought a W.C. Scott double in Spain, as I recall, and used it during his final years. He fired his last shot with that gun.

Hem shot a Browning 16 for several years and owned two, one a Sweet Sixteen. In Africa and elsewhere he shot his Model 12, a full choked gun made in 1928. He owned several O/U's, a few Merkle's a Berreta and a Superposed. He probably liked shooting an O/U best.

I have never heard or read of him shooting a Parker, but of course, he may have.

[Steve McCarty]

It is hard to believe, but a lot of people who like to shoot don't care about having fine guns. I have two great uncles who were great shots and avid hunters "back in the day" and who had the means to acquire fine shotguns, but who preferred Model 12's, Auto 5's etc. My Dad swears by his Winchester 101 and 870.

Interesting thought...I suspect that if people love the hunt and have a place to hunt, a well made and reliable shotgun is plenty. Engraving, after all, is merely cosmetic.

When I was young I considered owning "fine" shotguns as an affectation and an indication of snobbery. Now I consider it an appreciation of the fine art of gunmaking.

Most shooters cannot afford fine guns. I recall when I considered a Superposed as way, way out of reach. No one who I shot with owned one. We all shot 870's and Rem model 11's or something we bought at Sears. If Ted Williams said it was a good gun, that was good enough for us.

In addition, the owning of fine guns is generally a pursuit of the wealthy. I am not wealthy, so I don't own many fine guns and those I do own I had to save for.

One last thought, if one has one exceptionally fine shotgun, a Purdy, a high grade Parker, graded Ansley Fox, that gun becomes the Alpha Male of one's collection. It is the one you show last, the one that gets the ooohs and ahhhs. If one has two such guns doesn't it somehow take away from the Big Dog? While I understand that what I'm about to say is sacrilegious; one really fine gun just might be enough.

[Steve McCarty]

And while we are talking about great writers and great hunting stories, let's not forget my favorite . . . The Bear by William Faulkner.

I have never heard of The Bear! I'll have to give it a read. In Oxford, Miss. they just celebrated Faulkner's centennial. One of my favorite short stories is a Faulkner tale and for the life of me I can't recall its title. It is the story of the torpedo boats that ran across the English Channel during WWI to attack German shipping. When the captain of those little boats spied a German ship he would shout "beaver!" and ran at the ship releasing his torpedo and passed so close to the hull that the enemy guns could not depress enough to get in a shot. Then they high tailed it for home...if they were lucky; many, as the story goes, were not.

Hemingway is easier to read than Faulkner IMV. I have tried many times to read Joyce (like his short stories) but have not been able to get very far into Ulysses. I plan to die with it lying on my chest, opened to page four.

I don't know if Faulkner shot a Parker or not, but I've been to Oxford and it looks like pretty good bird country so I suspect that Faulkner would have shot one.

[Mills Morrison]

The Bear is a chapter in Go Down Moses. A loooong chapter, but very readable by Faulkner standards. Apparently, someone asked Faulkner if he had advice for people who had read his novels 3 times and still could not understand them and Faulkner replied "read it a fourth time" I suspect the firearms of Faulkner's Mississippi were muzzleloaders from the frontier days or Sears/Roebuck double guns. There was not too much money around Mississippi in his time.

[George Lander]

I had heard that William Faulkner and Shelby Foote were drinking buddies. I met Mr. Foote in Charleston, South Carolina not long before his death when he came to see Fort Sumter and Charleston for the first time. I asked him about his association with Faulkner and he cryptically responded: "I cannot clearly recall most of the times I spent with Bill and neither could he", but he was a dear friend.

Best Regards, George

[Steve McCarty]

I had heard that William Faulkner and Shelby Foote were drinking buddies. I met Mr. Foote in Charleston, South Carolina not long before his death when he came to see Fort Sumter and Charleston for the first time. I asked him about his association with Faulkner and he cryptically responded: "I cannot clearly recall most of the times I spent with Bill and neither could he", but he was a dear friend.

Best Regards, George

One of my favorite things to do is to walk along the Battery, he raised slate sidewalk on top of the sea wall in Charleston on the way to the park of the same name. The Hunley crew is buried there. Great cemeteries in that town! Walking there in the summer gives one an excellent excuse to drink cold beer.

Didn't we all fall in love with Shelby Foote when we watched the Ken Burns Civil War series? What a wonderful chuckle the old sage had and then there was the ancient blind black women who recited the melancholy poem of the dying soldier! She was memorable too.

Foote loved the Old South and Faulkner was on the cusp of being part of it. Both men were acquainted with many CW vets. I was stationed in Meridian, Miss for three years and drove to Oxford often. I loved living in the South in the 60's. I wish today that I had bought every Parker that I ran across. Trojan's were cheap.

I'll bet those two guys could put away bourbon, copius like.

[Steve McCarty]

The Bear is a chapter in Go Down Moses. A loooong chapter, but very readable by Faulkner standards. Apparently, someone asked Faulkner if he had advice for people who had read his novels 3 times and still could not understand them and Faulkner replied "read it a fourth time" I suspect the firearms of Faulkner's Mississippi were muzzleloaders from the frontier days or Sears/Roebuck double guns. There was not too much money around Mississippi in his time.

Faulkner had a highly developed love/hate relationship with Southerners which is the thrust of his novels. I've read only one, but it has been fifty years and I can't recall which one I read. I recall it not being an easy read.

[Grantham Forester]

Faulkner had a highly developed love/hate relationship with Southerners which is the thrust of his novels. I've read only one, but it has been fifty years and I can't recall which one I read. I recall it not being an easy read.--IMO, both Faulkner and Hemingway were heavy drinkers, but between the two, Hemingway had a solid work ethic and did not drink while working. His usual working routine both at Key West and later in Cuba at the Finca was to awake at 6 AM, swim, have two glasses of grapefruit juice, maybe a poached egg and toast, and to be at work by 6:45, work solidly until 12:30, and if the work went well, lunch was a glass of red wine or a small scotch with lime juice on the rocks, and his favorite sandwich- toasted wheat bread spread with peanut butter and with a big slice of raw onion on top of the spread. Then-- fishing, shooting live pigeons, or drinking at Sloppy Joe's in Key West, or at the Floridita in Havana. The later spot is where the Margarita was rumored to have been first created, suggested to the barman by Hemingway, who was divorced from Pauline and with (but not yet married to) Martha Gellhorn.

[Mills Morrison]

Maybe that is why you can't understand Faulkner. At the end of one of my favorite passages, when they are talking about sitting around the hunting lodge, he says "it seemed not only natural, but actually fitting, that this should have begun with whiskey." . . . That would be AFTER the hunt. This whole discussion has me wanting to read Hemingway's hunting stories. I didn't know he wrote hunting stories, until now

[George Lander]

Another of Hemingway's hangouts was THE COMPLEAT ANGLER on the island of Bimini. It is a to this day a typical 1930' island watering hole with many pictures of Ernest decorating the walls along with some of his drinking/fishing buddies and some gigantic blue marlin.

Best Regards, George

[Steve McCarty]

Maybe that is why you can't understand Faulkner. At the end of one of my favorite passages, when they are talking about sitting around the hunting lodge, he says "it seemed not only natural, but actually fitting, that this should have begun with whiskey." . . . That would be AFTER the hunt. This whole discussion has me wanting to read Hemingway's hunting stories. I didn't know he wrote hunting stories, until now

Coupla months ago I re-read the Green Hills of Africa, written about HEM's first safari in '33/34, paid for by his wife's uncle. They scared up the old boy who PH'd TR and Kermit's safari in (I think) 1905/6.

I took my time with the work and enjoyed it. At the same time I read The Horn of the Hunter by Ruark. Of course Bobby R. doesn't have the following that HEM has, but darn it all, I enjoyed that book too.

Aren't the Nick Adams tales about hunting/fishing? I've always enjoyed the story about the Indian who committed suicide as his wife was giving birth.

When Hem wrote Green Hills he was in his prime and it shows in the work.

Ruark died at age 49 and didn't require any embalming fluid to become pickled. He also owned some nice guns. He lived in Spain. (taxes you know). Ruark lived under Hem's shadow and he knew and didn't like it. Hem was born in '99 and Ruark in '18, so they were about a generation apart in age, but similar in many ways. Ruark liked safari martinis which was straight gin poured from a bottle left in the sun on the back seat of the Landrover and served up in a plastic cup. Yummm. I've been on safari (camera) and did some drinking after hours with a few of the young PH's. Hint, if someone offers you a pink gin, consider turning it down.

[Mills Morrison]

African Game Trails by TR is good. I try not to read too much about hunting in Africa as it is going to be a long time before I can go, if ever. Hunting Trips of a Ranchman by TR is good too and closer to home.

[Steve McCarty]

-- Then-- fishing, shooting live pigeons, or drinking at Sloppy Joe's in Key West, or at the Floridita in Havana.

In the summer of '71 I flew a TA4J Skyhawk on my last dual cross country before my wings and landed at NAS Key West. My instructor had been there many times and he ushered me to Sloppy Joe's which was still pretty sloppy and was just as Hem left it. Today it is not.

The bartender showed us Ernie's favorite bar stool, which was left of the pass through. He also described the Hemingway Daiquiri. It carried three double shots of Bacardi rum. Hem would show up around noon and stay until closing and drink over a dozen of them. At the time I was there the place had a green (or was it red?) lanoleum bar, rickety bar stools, concrete floors and floor to ceiling shutters usually left open to the elements, often wind driven rain.

I've never been back, but I understand the place has had a makeover. How sad, because when I was there it was a very pleasant place to get bombed.

[Steve McCarty]

African Game Trails by TR is good. I try not to read too much about hunting in Africa as it is going to be a long time before I can go, if ever. Hunting Trips of a Ranchman by TR is good too and closer to home.

Went to Medora in 2010. What a great place! Drove through the state park there and visited the old Frenchman's castle...a large gray wooden building on a hill over looking the little town of Medora. Great TR museum that included at least one of his shotguns....come to think of it, one was a double! Can't recall if it was a Parker or not. They had about three of his 76 Winchesters on display and a set of buckskins. If one is a TR fan Medora is a must see.

The president only owned finely engraved guns, knives, pistols etc...many on display. I have some pics, but not ready to attach.

[Steve McCarty]

Another of Hemingway's hangouts was THE COMPLEAT ANGLER on the island of Bimini. It is a to this day a typical 1930' island watering hole with many pictures of Ernest decorating the walls along with some of his drinking/fishing buddies and some gigantic blue marlin.

Best Regards, George

Hem wrote about that place. He said he's shoot at hand thrown skeet tossed over the sea wall and into the wind. Trickly shots, those. Sounds like fun to me.

Going trap shooting tomorrow. Taking my Parker SBT. Should be a good time.

[Grantham Forester]

Coupla months ago I re-read the Green Hills of Africa, written about HEM's first safari in '33/34, paid for by his wife's uncle. They scared up the old boy who PH'd TR and Kermit's safari in (I think) 1905/6.

I took my time with the work and enjoyed it. At the same time I read The Horn of the Hunter by Ruark. Of course Bobby R. doesn't have the following that HEM has, but darn it all, I enjoyed that book too.

Aren't the Nick Adams tales about hunting/fishing? I've always enjoyed the story about the Indian who committed suicide as his wife was giving birth.

When Hem wrote Green Hills he was in his prime and it shows in the work.

Ruark died at age 49 and didn't require any embalming fluid to become pickled. He also owned some nice guns. He lived in Spain. (taxes you know). Ruark lived under Hem's shadow and he knew and didn't like it. Hem was born in '99 and Ruark in '18, so they were about a generation apart in age, but similar in many ways. Ruark liked safari martinis which was straight gin poured from a bottle left in the sun on the back seat of the Landrover and served up in a plastic cup. Yummm. I've been on safari (camera) and did some drinking after hours with a few of the young PH's. Hint, if someone offers you a pink gin, consider turning it down. Just a few notes--The PH you mentioned was indeed Phillip Percival-- he was most likely the model for Robert Wilson in Hemingway's best short story ever-IMO anyway-- "The Short, Happy Life of Francis Macomber"--Wilson carried a George Gibbs BA in .505 Gibbs caliber, Phillip Percival most likely had his .470 H&H double express rifle when he guided Teddy and Kermit Roosevelt, it was later damaged when run over by a lorry, and he went to a .416 Rigby with express sights and used that for the rest of his hunting/guiding career. I think Ruark was a first rate writer, he was born in 1915 and died in Spain in 1965 at age 50. He had Hemingway both used booze and women to excess, but Hemingway was not a known smoker, Ruark was a two-pack a day Lucky Strike man, and he died from cancer. His friend and PH from Africa was Harry Selby.

[Steve McCarty]

Just a few notes--The PH you mentioned was indeed Phillip Percival-- he was most likely the model for Robert Wilson in Hemingway's best short story ever-IMO anyway-- "The Short, Happy Life of Francis Macomber"--Wilson carried a George Gibbs BA in .505 Gibbs caliber, Phillip Percival most likely had his .470 H&H double express rifle when he guided Teddy and Kermit Roosevelt, it was later damaged when run over by a lorry, and he went to a .416 Rigby with express sights and used that for the rest of his hunting/guiding career. I think Ruark was a first rate writer, he was born in 1915 and died in Spain in 1965 at age 50. He had Hemingway both used booze and women to excess, but Hemingway was not a known smoker, Ruark was a two-pack a day Lucky Strike man, and he died from cancer. His friend and PH from Africa was Harry Selby.

Darn, you are tough! I was sure I had Ruark's dates correct. Oh, well. There is an interesting video entitled In the Blood wherein several heirs of Roosevelt go ahunt'n in Africa and shoot some of TR's guns. I met R.L. Wilson once (in Cody, Wy). He explained that the fire was worse that depicted in the flick and that they lost one of TR's rifles. He also said the scene wherein they attacked some poachers was more dangerous that shown. They killed a few.

I agree that Ruark was a fine writer. I found Something of Value amazing. I recall when my parents read it, everybody was, in ca. 1955. I was not allowed to. I own two copies now, one is a "loaner". There is an issue of Life magazine that covers Ruark's experiences in Africa during the Mau Mau uprising and I have a copy. Obama's great grandfather, apparently, was a Mau Mau leader. Nice guys, those.:whistle:

I think Selby is still living and resides in Texas. There have been some nice articles of his experiences with Ruark published lately.

[Steve McCarty]

...Hemingway both used booze and women to excess, but Hemingway was not a known smoker, Ruark was a two-pack a day Lucky Strike man, and he died from cancer. His friend and PH from Africa was Harry Selby.

God, I loved smoking Luckies. Of course I've quit, hasn't everyone? They don't even make Lucky Strikes anymore, another reason to quit smoking.

[Grantham Forester]

It was not a .470 H&H express. England banned the std .450 Nitro express shell, for fear of the "natives" using it in the older Martini-Henry rifles. W.W. Jeffrey developed the .450 Number 2- that had all the cordite based powder capacity of the std. .450 express, but could NOT be used in those early pre-Enfield army rifles. Phillip Percival had a matched pair of those .450 Nitro Express Number 2- made to order by Joseph Lang & Son in London, in 1927. As both "Green Hills of Africa" and "The Short, Happy Life----" were written circa 1933-1934, Percival would have had those "stoppers" with him. How Hemingway put a George Gibbs Mauser square bridge custom rifle in .505 Gibbs in the hands of his fictional character, PWH Robert Wilson, is unknown to me.

One of Ruark's best known works is "Use Enough Gun" and that big bore Gibbs would certainly quality.

[Robert Delk]

I think this thread proves that Parkerphiles are thoughtful,intelligent and men of discernment.As for PTSD,I can tell you that you can talk about it and then you come to the place where all the bad stuff comes back at once and you are not where you want to be.

[John Campbell]

Parkerphiles are thoughtful,intelligent and men of discernment.

Thank you, Mr. Delk! Please allow me to add "cultured" to that fine choice of words.

These attributes are precisely why I frequent this forum. And why Papa would have as well... had he lived to do so.

Best, Kensal

[Andy Kelley]

Robert, excellent way to describe PTSD .One patient once described the trauma as being like a large wave coming into shore and then it is all over you and you feel like you can't breathe and are drowning. Case in point are women in prison who have been sexually abused, usually by a family member or friend and then spend the rest of their lives trying to medicate the pain and the reliving of the event, by using alcohol or street drugs. This eventually gets them into prison where the percentage of female inmates who have been sexually abused is usually 60to80 percent.

[Steve McCarty]

It was not a .470 H&H express. England banned the std .450 Nitro express shell, for fear of the "natives" using it in the older Martini-Henry rifles. W.W. Jeffrey developed the .450 Number 2- that had all the cordite based powder capacity of the std. .450 express, but could NOT be used in those early pre-Enfield army rifles. Phillip Percival had a matched pair of those .450 Nitro Express Number 2- made to order by Joseph Lang & Son in London, in 1927. As both "Green Hills of Africa" and "The Short, Happy Life----" were written circa 1933-1934, Percival would have had those "stoppers" with him. How Hemingway put a George Gibbs Mauser square bridge custom rifle in .505 Gibbs in the hands of his fictional character, PWH Robert Wilson, is unknown to me.

One of Ruark's best known works is "Use Enough Gun" and that big bore Gibbs would certainly quality.

Yes, and I read and re-read bits and pieces of Use Enough Gun often. It is a collection of Ruark's articles, the book being published after his death. I think by his heirs.

It is very possible that Hem and Ruark shared PTSD. Ruark, a sailor in the Navy Reserve in the North Sea for much of the War and we know about HEM's war experiences.

[Robert Delk]

Yeah,ptsd sort of sneaks up on you. I thought it was all something that a "tough" guy would never get and then,all of a sudden,you're thinking and doing things that you would never have imagined would be a part of your life.Things that confuse and scare your friends and family.I would not wish it on anyone.I still find it hard to admit any weakness and would imagine Hemingway and Ruark would have felt the same especially in the time that they lived.It's a lot easier for people to accept "weakness" ,in all its manifestations , in their military personnel today.

[Steve McCarty]

I love shooting and I enjoy collecting guns. When I was young I lived in fantastic bird country and hunting with my uncles many times. Wonderful memories of great bob white quail, ducks and pheasants.

While I have usually been able to shoot, I have not been able to hunt as much as I would like, so I read stories of other hunters; Keith, O'Conner, Hemingway, Ruark, TR, many others. I subscribe to shooting magazines and still enjoy reading them. Reading about shooters/hunters is part of enjoying the sport.

Shot my Parker SBT SC today. Was pressed for time so only shot one round of 26 handicaps. I have no business shooting those, but it was fun. The Parker worked great! I broke more than I missed...that was something at least.

[Steve McCarty]

Yeah,ptsd sort of sneaks up on you. I thought it was all something that a "tough" guy would never get and then,all of a sudden,you're thinking and doing things that you would never have imagined would be a part of your life.Things that confuse and scare your friends and family.I would not wish it on anyone.I still find it hard to admit any weakness and would imagine Hemingway and Ruark would have felt the same especially in the time that they lived.It's a lot easier for people to accept "weakness" ,in all its manifestations , in their military personnel today.

While PTSD exists, no arguement there, but I know that some folks are faking it for the dough. As an example, met a guy who lives down the street, a young fellow maybe mid-20's. He said he was receiving full compensation for PTSD. I asked him who he did. He replied that he had been in the navy. What did you do there? I asked. He said he had a secondary job as a sniper on ship. (I didn't know they had any.) I asked him if he had shot anyone. He said, "No, but I saw some guys shot by some Navy Seals that we had on board." I let the matter drop, but for this he got something like 130% pay for life.

I was in an RV camp two years ago. A guy walked by wearing an Air Force cap. We chatted. He said he was getting 100% PTSD for life. He explained that he was in the Air Force in VN.

I said, "Oh, were you in a bomber crew?"

"No", he said, "I was a load master".

"You loaded bombs?"

"No, I worked with cargo planes". He went on to explain that he was walking down the street in Saigon and saw a hotel blow up. "People were killed." He explained.

"For that you put in for PTSD pay for life?" I asked.

"yep", he said. "I had nightmares."

Last week my an old friend came over, hadn't seen him for decades. He'd spent '68/69' in country...Army E4. He was one of those guys who went out into the boonies and placed sensors along trails, etc... He registered the site with with the arty guys. When the little machines went off he'd order a fire mission. He'd tell'em to fire for effect until he ordered them to cease fire. He said once he ordered 150 rounds of 105. They'd shoot HE and LOM, messy stuff. Then he'd go out to the target area to see how he'd done. He said, "There'd be lots of blood trails and little piles of gooey stuff." He said he was doing an E6's job and they offered him a commission if he'd re-up, but he told them he'd had enough fun for one lifetime. He talked about his experiences at length. Of course, right after he returned, he jumped at loud noises, and shouted out in his sleep etc...but he recovered. He became a cop and then a fireman around oil rigs.

Now if there was ever a guy who would succumb to PTSD it seems to me he'd be the guy. He killed many people, often observing the rounds splash on target. He often worked alone or with one or two guys. He laughed about being scared. He fought VC until Tet, then NVA. The VC were pretty much reduced as a fighting force after Tet. This guy enjoyed telling the stories. We BS'd for hours.

Me? I was an attack pilot. The only problems I had when I returned was the lack of danger in civilian life. Everything seemed so mundane. I had trouble figuring out that even if no one was shooting at you, you must pay attention.

I am sure there are legit cases of PTSD that need treatment and deserve some additional pay, but from what I've experienced, there are a lot of frauds out there too.

[Robert Delk]

I can't imagine how anyone could fake out the system they have in place to check you out. I didn't even say anything about ptsd but went in for type 2 diabetes as they think it might be a result of Agent orange. I went to 3 different medical facilities in 3 different cities and it was 6 months before I found out they had decided most of my trouble was PTSD.They checked my medical and psychiatric records,which I was not aware they did, and came up with my evaluation.I can see now that I was "losing it" but my behavior seemed ok at the time,to me only.Anyone that would fake something like this deserves to be given serious prison time. On the up side of ptsd I found that you can stay awake for days at a time and not get tired but the auditory hallucinations were the worst.

[Steve McCarty]

I can't imagine how anyone could fake out the system they have in place to check you out. I didn't even say anything about ptsd but went in for type 2 diabetes as they think it might be a result of Agent orange. I went to 3 different medical facilities in 3 different cities and it was 6 months before I found out they had decided most of my trouble was PTSD.They checked my medical and psychiatric records,which I was not aware they did, and came up with my evaluation.I can see now that I was "losing it" but my behavior seemed ok at the time,to me only.Anyone that would fake something like this deserves to be given serious prison time. On the up side of ptsd I found that you can stay awake for days at a time and not get tired but the auditory hallucinations were the worst.

Those sound like serious symptoms to me! Hope you are okay...

Another tale. Old squadron mate of mine joined a motorcycle club, all enlisted marines. He was the only officer. All of the men were receiving PTSD payments, each and every one. They told the fellow I knew that he should put in for PTSD too. He figured, hay, it's free money. I was in the Nam (he was an F-4 driver.) So he put in for it. Big mistake. He convinced the medical people that he was infected with the problem, so they gave him some drugs. If you don't have PTSD and you take the drugs for it, you get it. Then the cops took his guns (very nice shotguns), and pilots license.

So, it sounds to me that if one fakes it, it is problematic. But still the two guys who I talked to didn't seem to have experienced anything out of the ordinary, but then again; I'm not them.

Fighting men and women have been suffering from tramma due to military experiences forever. Civil War vets did, so did WWI GI's. Survivors of the death camps did not do well after their release. First it was shell shock, then battle fatigue and now post trammatic stress. If someone has it, it is nothing to be ashamed of. Those who fake it should be jailed. I think some, if not many, do, or try to.

Read an article of an interview of a vet who had seen hard combat. He said, "Yeah, I had issues when I returned, but the first thing you have to do is to stay away from the people who are telling you that you are sick."

You, are much more experienced in this matter than I. I was a zoomie and never experienced the bush. You did. I hope that you are doing well.

[Robert Delk]

I think most of my platoon was in awe of the F4 pilots who escorted the choppers that inserted and extracted us. On rare occasions,I was a radio operator,I had direct contact with the pilots when we had something the artillery couldn't handle.Why anyone in their right mind would attempt to f--- with a fighter plane when they are on the ground in plain sight I cannot imagine,but some of the vc tried.Not wise.I would give anything to get that feeling back when that F4 rolls up out of the valley and comes screaming in 10 feet over your head looking for the bad guys.Awesome doesn't describe it.I can only imagine what it must be like to actually be flying one of those things.

[Steve McCarty]

I think most of my platoon was in awe of the F4 pilots who escorted the choppers that inserted and extracted us. On rare occasions,I was a radio operator,I had direct contact with the pilots when we had something the artillery couldn't handle.Why anyone in their right mind would attempt to f--- with a fighter plane when they are on the ground in plain sight I cannot imagine,but some of the vc tried.Not wise.I would give anything to get that feeling back when that F4 rolls up out of the valley and comes screaming in 10 feet over your head looking for the bad guys.Awesome doesn't describe it.I can only imagine what it must be like to actually be flying one of those things.

Flying the fighter/bombers, everything happened very quickly. Early in the war we flew at 450 kts, (a mile in 6 or 7 seconds)and then picked it up to 500 when the enemy came out with a faster shoulder held (strella)missile. We usually dropped on smoke and seldom saw much of the target. We were truck'n. We often rolled in from 15000 feet maybe 18000 (it has been a while). We were always careful to run in parallel to friendlies. We never ran in toward our troops. The enemy often ran around shooting straight up with their AK's and SKS's. All it took was one round in the wing, which was our fuel tank, to bring us down. Especially with the F-4. My little A-4 could take a lot of hits. I took a few. "doink" sounded like someone hit your bird with a ballpeen hammer.

We were concerned about the guys on the deck. We were marines, so we'd all been through grunt training and many of us served a tour with the grunts as FAC's. I was a FAC airborne for a time.

The chopper guys took the hits. They flew low and slow and had little or no armor. We had some. We were move'n, those guys were doing 130 knots. Zu 23's were hard on choppers.

Well, it's over and now we've had several more wars and ours has pretty much been forgotten. We are old men. I'm just sorry that a lot of my buddies couldn't be old men too.

[Robert Delk]

Yeah, the adrenalin really starts pumping when you're sitting in a chopper and they start shooting her up. I remember coming back to Danang about 20 feet off the ground,barely airborne with the smoke coming out of the chopper. My buddy said he could hardly see it when it landed at Camp Reasoner chopper pad.I'll take my chances on the ground,thank you and leave the flying to smarter and braver men. I was going to say "crazy' but that wouldn't really describe what it takes to be a pilot in combat.Sometimes I still have dreams that I'm falling out of the chopper.I come out of bed wide awake!

[George Lander]

I once had the opportunity with several others to talk with Carlos Hathcock. Someone asked him if he had nightmares over some of the things that he saw and did. I believe that his response was something along the lines of: "Combat affects differerent people in different ways. I saw my job as just that, a job. If I took somebody out I looked on it as well: He won't be able to hurt any of our guys anymore." I guess different people have different levels of tolerance to things that happen in combat. One of my best friends was an Air Police Officer in a place called Phu Kat. A mortar round blasted his observation tower out from under him & he took a pretty good hit. He's now the same guy that I knew before Nam although he doesn't like to talk about the war very much.
Different Strokes for Different Folks, I guess.

Best Regards, George

[Robert Delk]

I think I am ok with the death of combatants but the unnecessary deaths of civilians was something that came back to haunt me. It seems many times that the focus on was killing a vc or vcs and too bad for whoever else happened to be around. I don't think the killing of one enemy is worth killing/maiming any civilians. Both sides lost sight of that.I remember a high profile target(1 man) that was targeted after he had entered a village and the ok was given to drop artillery on that village until they were sure they got him.His body was not found when they entered the village sometime later but the villagers took casulties.

[Steve McCarty]

I think I am ok with the death of combatants but the unnecessary deaths of civilians was something that came back to haunt me. It seems many times that the focus on was killing a vc or vcs and too bad for whoever else happened to be around. I don't think the killing of one enemy is worth killing/maiming any civilians. Both sides lost sight of that.I remember a high profile target(1 man) that was targeted after he had entered a village and the ok was given to drop artillery on that village until they were sure they got him.His body was not found when they entered the village sometime later but the villagers took casulties.

The ROE today rules out such attacks, least I think so. I recall when Lt Calley was arrested. There were a lot of flight instructors who were very nervous (I was still in the Training Command.) Seeking humanity in war is usually a lost cause.

[Steve McCarty]

I once had the opportunity with several others to talk with Carlos Hathcock. Someone asked him if he had nightmares over some of the things that he saw and did. I believe that his response was something along the lines of: "Combat affects differerent people in different ways. I saw my job as just that, a job. If I took somebody out I looked on it as well: He won't be able to hurt any of our guys anymore." I guess different people have different levels of tolerance to things that happen in combat. One of my best friends was an Air Police Officer in a place called Phu Kat. A mortar round blasted his observation tower out from under him & he took a pretty good hit. He's now the same guy that I knew before Nam although he doesn't like to talk about the war very much.
Different Strokes for Different Folks, I guess.

Best Regards, George

I know people who knew Gunny Hathcock, but I never met him. I think he is in that great rifle range in the sky. Gone maybe three/four years.

[Andy Kelley]

Robert I was very lucky in that we mostly engaged NVA infantry troops coming in from Cambodia who had bugles flags etc. No civilians in the area and we were usually totally isolated...Terrain very mountainous and many times had food ,ammunition dropped in by parachute.....crazy the things you do when you are young. Once during rainy season I was convinced we were going to be over run and I had said goodbye to the other American with me and prayed like I never had before or since. I guess someone was listening

[Grantham Forester]

Just a few notes--The PH you mentioned was indeed Phillip Percival-- he was most likely the model for Robert Wilson in Hemingway's best short story ever-IMO anyway-- "The Short, Happy Life of Francis Macomber"--Wilson carried a George Gibbs BA in .505 Gibbs caliber, Phillip Percival most likely had his .470 H&H double express rifle when he guided Teddy and Kermit Roosevelt, it was later damaged when run over by a lorry, and he went to a .416 Rigby with express sights and used that for the rest of his hunting/guiding career. I think Ruark was a first rate writer, he was born in 1915 and died in Spain in 1965 at age 50. He had Hemingway both used booze and women to excess, but Hemingway was not a known smoker, Ruark was a two-pack a day Lucky Strike man, and he died from cancer. His friend and PH from Africa was Harry Selby. I just re-read the May/June 2011 issue of Sports Afield, the special hunting rifles issue. It was NOT Phillip Percival who had his double express rifle run over by a hunting car in Africa, it was Harry Selby. He had a Rigby .470 double express rifle, he put it down in the grass to assist the gun bearers with a dead lion just dispatched, another PWH drove up, a friend of Selby's, not knowing this, and the front wheels ran over the double rifle, severaly bending the barrels. Selby did have a M70 in .375 H&H in his battery, but he replaced the double Rigby with the Mauser BA in .416 Rigby with express sights, and used it for the rest of his 55 year career as a PWH. In this same issue there is a description of the Hemingway/Winston Guest Westley Richards .577 Nitro double express rifle, it hammered down for nearly $340K at Julia's, with the buyer's premium added in-- Wow!!!

[Steve McCarty]

Just this last minute I finished reading The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber and I am still reeling. Whew! Strange ending and something very Hemingwayesk. Of course he fashioned himself as the white hunter and of course the damsel was all over him. That story needs some discussion...

The Francis Macomber character must have been a compilation of several men and frankly I'd not like to be any of them.