410 Gun Porn

[Bruce Day]

Now it seems like all you fellows want to see is 8 or 10ga guns with at least 32" barrels that weigh upwards of 12 pounds, or you want to see a couple fellows going at each other.....that's what draws the attention. So only a few might be interested in these little fellows.


First we have a little Ithaca NID 410, with original 18 1/2" barrels, original condition from 1936. Its listed in the Ithaca records as an Auto and Burgler Gun, which obviously its not.

[Bruce Day]

Next we have a little Lefever 410.

[Bruce Day]

And finally an Enders 410.

[Craig Parker]

Bruce,
There all nice but my fav would have to be the little Ithaca 410, what a cool gun.

[Dean Romig]

And of course the Parker AHE .410 Skeet



.

[Dave Noreen]

"Enders Royal Service" was a "trade brand" gun, actually made by H & D Folsom Arms Co., of 314 Broadway, NYC, at their factory in Norwich, Conn. I'm sure it started life lookng like this one marked Crescent Fire Arms Co., New Empire --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/H%20and%20D%20Folsom%20Arms%20Co/PC100004.jpg

[Dave Noreen]

I wonder if that lovely little No. 2E Ithaca actually started life with a pistol grip of an Auto & Burgler?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/Auto-Burglerjpg.jpg

That stock, while of at least No. 4 wood, has the checkering pattern on the grip of the 1935 and later Field Grades. A half-pistol grip is pretty rare on NID era Ithacas. In fact the only one I've seen, before this, is on my No. 4E 20-gauge NID --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/NIDGrade4E20-GaugeStockRight.jpg

[Bruce Day]

There is no indication in the records that the little Ithaca is or was anything other than shown. It is however, listed in the records as an Auto and Burglar gun, per Walt Snyder's Ithaca guns book.

Enders was one of many trade names for guns made by Crescent Arms Company, which was one of several companies controlled by Folsom.

I do not own these guns, owned by a buddy, and I know he had the history of them before acquisition.

[Bruce Day]

And another

[Rick Losey]

I had a friend who had an Ithaca Auto & Burglar that had been redone (and looked factory) as a full gun when the little guns were outlawed.

not sure if it went back, or if it was short stopped on the way out when the law was enacted.

the few folks I knew that shot the "pistol" version did not do it often

[Rich Anderson]

I love the small bores and that Ithaca is a sweet looking gun. I know the whereabouts of a nice Iver Johnson Skeeter 410 but if the Gods are shining I'll have my own 410 Porn delivered to the Southern:bowdown:

I also have a line on a mint ithaca NID 28 just in case anyone might be interested.

[Fred Preston]

Beautiful little guns. Not up on the Foxies, is that one a SBT? Just to bring in the riffraff, here's a little Turkish one I bought from Jaqua's a couple of years ago. It weighs an ounce or so over 5 pounds on a triple 0 frame with 30" barrels; SST but no ejectors. The dimensions are right and with the long barrels, isn't whippy. It regularly breaks targets from the 16 yard line and has killed a number of Phez withn its 35 yard limit. Shown here in comparison with my NH, 3 frame, 32" 10ga; not made for a small person.

[Steve McCarty]

I have only shot a .410 a few times, but when I do the report is deafening, at least to my tender ears. They are just about shot. The load must come out supersonic because it cracks like a 45/70.

[Bruce Day]

And an Elsie

[Brian Dudley]

Bruce, What that Enders 410 a custom engraving job?

[Steve McCarty]

Small bores are of course, all the rage today. I need a 28 gauge. Parker of course, invented the gauge and I'd love to get a Parker 28.

I have a friend who owns a gazillion acres of land in eastern Oregon. He only allows 28's or smaller on the place. I need one to hunt with him.

[Rich Anderson]

The 28 is a great guage and one of my favorites for Grouse and Woodcock not to mention my favorite upland bird the bobwhite Quail.

[Dean Romig]

Parker of course, invented the gauge and I'd love to get a Parker 28.


Ahem... no, Parker Bros. did not invent the 28 gauge. Parker Bros. however, may have been one of the first American gunmakers to produce a gun in 28 gauge.

[Dave Noreen]

Steve,

If you can get us on a great place to hunt, I can bring 28-gauge guns, shells, and a bird dog!! Don't have a Praker Bros. 28-gauge though!!

Dave

[Rich Anderson]

I'll jump on that wagon also. Two Parker 28's and a good bird dog, and lots of shells:bigbye:

[Russ Jackson]

Here's a 28 Ga. ,OO Frame I have at Brad Bachelders ,getting a little polishing up done on her ,can't wait to get her back home ! And a 410 ,OOO Frame ,BHE Runge Upgrade . Russ

[edgarspencer]

I'm feeling light headed, and it's not the Vicodin.

[charlie cleveland]

russ you get tired of lookin at them old guns just sendem my way.... charlie

[Russ Jackson]

I'm feeling light headed, and it's not the Vicodin.

Ed ,It's a good thing you're sitting down !:rotf:

[Russ Jackson]

russ you get tired of lookin at them old guns just sendem my way.... charlie

Good Morning Charlie ,I already sent you one :whistle:,which would you like ?:rotf:

[Steve McCarty]

Ahem... no, Parker Bros. did not invent the 28 gauge. Parker Bros. however, may have been one of the first American gunmakers to produce a gun in 28 gauge.

Not what I read, but I may be wrong. If I recall correctly my source, which was one of the new Parker gun books, reported that Parker made the first
28. Did they invent the loading and then make the first guns for that gauge? Not sure, but that's how I recall it, but I'm not going to go to the mattresses over the issue.

[Dave Suponski]

Parker Bros. was the first American company to offer a 28 gauge double gun.

[Dean Romig]

Just for the sake of arguement, without going to the mats, here is some basic information from 2006... http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88619&view=next


But please read all of the posts and seperate the wheat from the chaff for yourself.

[James Brown]

I had posted this in a thread on the Off Topic Forum but it fits better here.
James

[Larry Mason]

Wow! Thanks to all of you. I love all those small bores.

[Bill Murphy]

I just made this post on the shotgunworld thread from 2006, titled "Who invented the 28 gauge?" which is pretty interesting reading. "Recent research shows that the first order for a Parker 28 gauge was placed on February 6, 1900. The order was for five 28 gauges for Shoverling, Daly, and Gales in New York. I still think the H&R exposed hammer double 28 gauge probably predates the Parker 28 gauge." The provided link for that thread seems to have been skewed by my post, but it is available in the "Shotguns, General" subforum on shotgunworld.com.

[Dave Noreen]

The only listing of the little H & R 28-gauge hammer double I've found was in the 1912 SD&G catalogue --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/LittleHR1912SDGCatalogue.jpg

The Remington Arms Co. Model 1893 single barrel was being offered in 10-, 12-, 16-, 20, 24-, and 28-gauge in their 1899 catalogue.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Remington/No3Early1901Catalogue.jpg

In their April 1897 catalogue the Model 1893 was only offered in 12-, 16- and 20-gauge.

[Bill Murphy]

OK, so we somewhat eliminate H&R from the first double 28 race. Where does Parker fit in if Greener predated Parker in the UK? I think that it is very unlikely that Parker Brothers was first to manufacture a 28 gauge breechloader if the Greener claim is correct. Is it important to identify the first 28 gauge double gun in the US? If it isn't H&R, who is it?

[Dave Suponski]

Parker Brothers me thinks....:)

[Bill Murphy]

OK, you win. February 6, 1900, first Parker order, probably the first US made double guns. I tried my best to find an 1899 order but couldn't do it. The serial numbers of the first guns are in the Parker Pages article. Austin's serial numbers mentioned in the article are the first numbers in the stock books, which are not the first guns made or ordered. The stock books that include the first 28 gauge guns are "missing".

[edgarspencer]

There is a nice little American hammer 28 coming up in one of the auctions soon. I can't remember where I saw it, but it may have been Kull's (Armsbid.com)

[Dean Romig]

OK, Is it important to identify the first 28 gauge double gun in the US?

I don't think so. It would be fun for one collector's group to be able to stake that claim but it probably doesn't matter otherwise.

[Rich Anderson]

We have transgressed fron the 410 to the 28, is that like changeing from a Blonde to a Redhead? Just checking as I try to stay current on all the popular Porn sites:biglaugh:

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, you discovered one of my well known errors in posting. I meant to post "It is important to identify the first 28 gauge double gun in the US." I guess it is Parker unless we can find an earlier H&R offering.

[Dean Romig]

I think the more important fact is that Parker Bros. did not "invent the 28 gauge".

[Rich Anderson]

She's not a Redhead or a Blonde but this Foxy little porn star followed me home from the Southern:whistle:

[Russ Jackson]

Good Morning Rich ,WOW :bowdown: She sure is Beautiful !!!!!!!! I know this is a little personal but ,are you sleeping with her ?????:rotf:

[Eric Eis]

Good Morning Rich ,WOW :bowdown: She sure is Beautiful !!!!!!!! I know this is a little personal but ,are you sleeping with her ?????:rotf:

Yes so what's your point Russ.....:rotf:

[Steve McCarty]

She's not a Redhead or a Blonde but this Foxy little porn star followed me home from the Southern:whistle:

Are you shoot'n it?

[charlie cleveland]

just nearly to pretty to hunt with mind you i said almost....great gun.... very nice.... charlie

[Rich Anderson]

I'll give her the trial run Sunday on the Sporting Clays course. It will make for a fine Rabbit gun:)

[charlie cleveland]

them rabbits will just about jump outa them bushes to get shot by such a beauty... charlie

[Eric Eis]

She's not a Redhead or a Blonde but this Foxy little porn star followed me home from the Southern:whistle:

Forgot to ask about that other gun that followed you back from the Southern.... Folks, Rich is keeping his record unbroken, two guns picked up at the Southern for as long as we have gone......I'll let him tell you about the other gun that followed us back to Michigan...:shock:

[Russ Jackson]

:corn:

[Dean Romig]

Seems Rich has a mild case of Lockjaw :coffee:

[Rich Anderson]

First off no Secret Service Agents or CIA agents were involved in this Porn operation.

The second gun is a DHE 20, PG,DT,SPL, Skeleton butt Vent Rib w/30 inch bbls choked M/F and will flat grind a target.

[Eric Eis]

Seems Rich has a mild case of Lockjaw :coffee:

Could be major......

[Dean Romig]

I think Steve sets up at these events because he knows beforehand that you will be there with your blood money.

[Rich Anderson]

I haven't bought a gun from Steve this year........yet:whistle:

[Russ Jackson]

Rich ,Pictures,Pictures,Pictures ! I'll bet those 30" Barrels keep that little gun swinging ! Congratulations ,this one sounds like a gem also ! Russ

[charlie cleveland]

lordy i would bout trade a 3 legged cat for one of those long barreled 20 s.... charlie

[Rich Anderson]

Russ this makes the second 30 inch VR 20 for me. The other one is about 90% case color and straight grip, SST, BTF to a Hawkins pad. It makes for a nice Pheasant gun. Now I have a pair:)

[Daryl Corona]

It's about time you got a pair.:rotf:

[Bill Murphy]

Are your serial numbers close?

[Chuck Bishop]

Boy, your bone marrow must be working overtime:shock:

[Rich Anderson]

Bill I believe there with in 10,000. I know the one gun is 222223 and the other is in the 230K range.

[Bill Murphy]

I'm going to sneak in a Parker .410 question here, since this is a .410 thread. OK, here goes. Does anyone know about the round barrel Parker .410s, the ones without the little step near the chambers? Was it just the first few .410s that were built that way, or is it my imagination that such guns even exist? Does anyone own such a gun and what is the serial number?

[edgarspencer]

Bill, I stole this pic off of Gunbroker. Are you referring to the portion of barrel that rests on the watertable, just below the hinge pin? If you are, I have a vague recollection of seeing one which, rather than the barrel dropping straight down, rolled under.

[edgarspencer]

I spose since I went to the trouble of stealing the picture, I ought to at least use it.
BTW, if this is not the area you're refering to, then, as usual, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Robert Delk]

I think the guy that had all the .410's years ago had one in his collection.Was his name Otis? He had some pictures of some of his guns showing the variations and I recall one had round barrels all the way out as I thought he had gotten in a 28 with all the .410's.Going by a 35-40 year old recollection but I think I am right.

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks Bob, I would love to see that variation.

[Eric Eis]

I'm going to sneak in a Parker .410 question here, since this is a .410 thread. OK, here goes. Does anyone know about the round barrel Parker .410s, the ones without the little step near the chambers? Was it just the first few .410s that were built that way, or is it my imagination that such guns even exist? Does anyone own such a gun and what is the serial number?

Bill it is not your imagination, the very early 410's were round barreled and then I think I was told the step was done as it reduced machining time. I had a D grade 410 straight grip with full round barrels but traded it off, it was the only one that I have seen.

[Robert Delk]

Well, the world,at least the "Parker world" is ready for someone to produce a bare bones .410 repro that you can finish yourself to suit. Sort of like the in the white A1's that Galazan had.I suppose you would have to keep it under 6 grand to sell very many.I bet Tony has thought about it and wonder what he came up with when he "crunched' the numbers.

[Bill Murphy]

The step in the picture is what I'm talking about. Is Daryl Middlebrook's early .410 an example of the "round barrel" variation? Does anyone know when they went to the stepped barrel and if there is a picture of the early round barrel in TPS?