JAMES JULIA'S MARCH 2012 AUCTION

[George Lander]

The auction results have now been posted for both Julia's and Poulin's auction

Lot# 1111 The 20 ga. BHE straight grip did not sell.
# 1112 The .410 VHE brought $24,150.00
# 1113 The 28 ga. GH straight grip brought $15,525.00
# 1114 (The one that I wanted) the cased 8 bore upgrade to A-1 Special
went for $18,400.00
#1115 The AAAH 20 ga. upgrade went for $12,650.00
#1116 The 20 ga. DHE went for $5,750.00 (A great buy IMHO)
#1117 The 20 ga. GHE straight grip went for $6,612.50
#1118 The 16 ga. GHE Skeet did not sell
#1119 The 12 ga. DHE did not sell
#1120 The 12 ga. DHE w/ Miller single trigger & extra barrels went for
$3,450.00 (Another great buy IMHO)
#1121 The $100 Grade back action lifter went for $3,450.00
#1122 The 20 ga. Grade 3 lifter went for $32,200.00 (six times the high
estimate of $3,000 - $5,000)
#1123 The 12 ga. Quality 2 lifter went for $2,875.00 (Another great buy)
#1124 The cased 10 bore No. 2 lifter w/ accessories went for $10,925.00
#1125 The 28 ga. VH went for $9,200
#1126 The 20 ga. VHE O frame went for $2,875.00
#1127 The 12 ga. VH 1 1/2 frame went for $1,380.00
#1128 Another 12 ga. VH 1 1/2 frame went for $1,150.00

THERE WERE SOME GOOD BUYS HERE, BUT SOME BIG PRICES ON THE RARER GUNS. The prices shown also includes the vig. WHO SAID THAT THERE IS A RECESSION GOING ON?

Best Regards, George

[CraigThompson]

Thanks George I had been wondering what that 8 gauge upgrade brought !

Sure woulda liked to have bought it :whistle:

[CraigThompson]

I'm curiouse ?

The ones you say didn't sell . Were they pulled from the auction or did they not meet a reserve ?

[CraigThompson]

They had a Krieghoff Crown Grade K-32 4 barrel skeet set and a Browning Superposed Midas Grade 4 barrel skeet set . You wouldn't happen to know what either of these brought would you ?

[George Lander]

Craig: My guess is that they did not meet the reserve. They could, most probably, be bought directly from the auction house at some price. If they had a K-22 & a Midas 4 barrel set in this sale I have not been able to find them. The catalogue & results are now on line.

Best Regards, George

[Robin Lewis]

Much worse than that. Not all items have a reserve and there is no notice as to which ones have a reserve. In fact if you have never been to his auction before, you would have no idea that anything is at reserve.

If an item is on reserve and the reserve is not met, you don't know that either. The hammer falls as if it sold. If I was bidding and had high bid, I would think I bought it. I have no idea what happens when the bidder finds out he didn't win the item.

The only way I know any of this is by going and watching. I see items sell but then the "official" list comes out and items that I thought sold are unsold. Look at my post on this auction, I posted what the hammer bid was on each lot when I got home Monday afternoon and yet some were not sold when George posted his list.

I don't like it but what are ya going to do. I do know one person that put a gun up there with a reserve and the reserve was not met; AND he didn't get his gun back as expected. It seems they can simply give you the reserve as payment and they keep the gun.

[charlie cleveland]

id be mad if they kept my gun.... charlie

[Dean Romig]

Much worse than that.... I do know one person that put a gun up there with a reserve and the reserve was not met; AND he didn't get his gun back as expected. It seems they can simply give you the reserve as payment (less the seller's premium) and they keep the gun.



AND he subsequently called and made a fuss and had a half-hour discussion with the representative about his displeasure with their way of doing business... AND he was told in the course of this discussion that on the reverse side of the contract he should have been informed of paragraph D but wasn't... AND he never received his catalog for this March 2012 auction...

[George Lander]

I've never sold a gun at Julia's but I have bought a few. I never read their entire selling contract because that would give me a headache. Generally speaking the auction houses that I am familiar with, unless the auction is advertised as being "absolute", will not sell any item that does not bring at least half of the low estimate. As you say, Jent, the auction does not advertise which item has a reserve and which does not and it does tend to become confusing. Any item that hammers above half the low estimate should be sold unless advertised with a reserve IMHO. Some auction houses will continue to try to sell a gun that does not sell in the auction, post sale. Generally if they do this they will not accept a bid less than the low estimate that was published in the catalogue. Some auction houses will bid an item up to it's reserve against a live bidder and if it doesn't meet the reserve they will announce that it is sold to the "AB" (absentee bidder) so that it appears the every item is sold until the "prices realised list" is published.

Best Regards, George

[Robin Lewis]

I saw lot 1118, the Parker 16 ga skeet gun hammer in at $6,250 and the estimate was $7,500 - $10,000 and yet it later shows as a no sale? The same goes for lot 1111, the 20 ga BHE which had an estimate of $20,000 - $30,000 and hammered in at $16,000 but was also a no sale? Granted, they didn't get up to the minimum estimate but they were well above half that number. I don't know how Julia figures all this but I know that if I thought I bought the skeet gun for $6,250 and then when I went to pick it up I was told I couldn't get it, I would be some upset.

Now that I am putting my thoughts down here, I am wondering if they have a bidder in the room pushing it up to the minimum and when they win, its a no sale? I never annualized this before but something just seems odd with how this turned out.

[Eric Eis]

I saw lot 1118, the Parker 16 ga skeet gun hammer in at $6,250 and the estimate was $7,500 - $10,000 and yet it later shows as a no sale? The same goes for lot 1111, the 20 ga BHE which had an estimate of $20,000 - $30,000 and hammered in at $16,000 but was also a no sale? Granted, they didn't get up to the minimum estimate but they were well above half that number. I don't know how Julia figures all this but I know that if I thought I bought the skeet gun for $6,250 and then when I went to pick it up I was told I couldn't get it, I would be some upset.

Now that I am putting my thoughts down here, I am wondering if they have a bidder in the room pushing it up to the minimum and when they win, its a no sale? I never annualized this before but something just seems odd with how this turned out.

Robin, could not have said it better... Hell I am still waiting on the refund of my buyers premium for the DH16 ga (the one with wall thickness of .015 that they said was .03..:eek:) that Mr. Julia told me to pound sand when I asked for a refund of the buyer's commission...:cuss:

[Mark Ouellette]

So... why would anyone buy from Julia's Auctions?

[John Dallas]

Has anyone asked Julia's what their policies are, rather than guess or speculate?

[Richard Flanders]

So, on these guns that didn't not sell, did they actually hammer down and say "Sold" at the auction? And I guess one has to read every bit of the small print in the contract before submitting a gun for sale with them.

[Eric Eis]

Has anyone asked Julia's what their policies are, rather than guess or speculate?

John, I don't have to speculate...:cuss: I know how they "trashed me" and that's is all I need to know...You lose a few thousand on a gun and let's see how you feel...:banghead:

[Robin Lewis]

So, on these guns that didn't not sell, did they actually hammer down and say "Sold" at the auction? And I guess one has to read every bit of the small print in the contract before submitting a gun for sale with them.

Yes, the hammer falls and "sold" called.

[Dean Romig]

Mark, in answer to your question - they have quality auctions and provide access to some wonderful firearms, as well as all the non-gun stuff they auction.

One can either place a reserve on an item he consigns with them... or not.
Either way, unless there are no bids at all for that particular lot, you're probably not going to get it back.

[Mark Ouellette]

Dean,

Yes, I know that. I still ask why would one do business with them?

Mark

[Robin Lewis]

I sent them an email and asked them to explain why the guns didn't sell even though they hammered them as sold. If I get a reply, I will post it to this thread.

[James Brown]

The following is from Julia's web site and printed catalog:
"9. RESERVES: Some items in this auction may carry a conservative reserve.Therefore, the auctioneer may bid on behalf of the owner or for the auction house. The purchaser will be the highest bidder acknowledged by the auctioneer. Please note that when a lot carries a reserve, the reserve is usually somewhere below the low estimate in the catalog. Actual reserve figures cannot be divulged, but we will tell you if an item carries a reserve should you ask."

Looks like Mr. Mitchell may be right, at least on some lots, you could be bidding against the owner and/or the auction house and not know it unless you ask.
James

[Dean Romig]

Mr. Brown and all interested parties - If the auction house is a bidder on any lot he must, in my opinion, publicly place his bid against the last bidder or, once again in my opinion, he is cheating the seller. This practice is unfair and again, in my opinion, unethical!!!!!

[Eric Eis]

Mr. Brown and all interested parties - If the auction house is a bidder on any lot he must, in my opinion, publicly place his bid against the last bidder or, once again in my opinion, he is cheating the seller. This practice is unfair and again, in my opinion, unethical!!!!!

Yeah, what he said.. guess another name is ...:nono:

[Dean Romig]

Sorry Eric, I won't join you on that one.

[Eric Eis]

Sorry Eric, I won't join you on that one.

Ok that was too harsh, but I agree with you on "unethical". Eric

[Robin Lewis]

As I think about this, I'm not sure this is a bad thing? The item isn't going to sell because nobody has bid up to the reserve, so they bid. The seller isn't going to sell the item anyway without another bid, so if they bid and another bidder counters and it is over the reserve, everybody wins.:duck: But, deep inside, it seems somehow wrong; if you know what I mean?:nono:

[charlie cleveland]

i dont understand all this...but then ive never been to a gun auction in person...i dont think ill be bidding on their guns... charlie

[CraigThompson]

Any local auction company I've ever been to that was selling guns or whatever that had a reserve always announced this item will be started at such and such because thats what the owner set it at .

Went to a local auction about 5 years ago expressly to view and possibly bid on an original signed Pennsylvania flintlock rifle . Not until I sat there for 2 hours waiting for it to come up did I find out the gun had a reserve that was maybe $3000 over what I had planned to spend . On the one hand they told us upfront when it was brought forth . But on the other hand if it had been disclosed in their catalog it would have saved me the trouble of driving the 25 miles to Charlottesville , sitting there for almost 3 hours for nothing and the return trip home !

Oh yeah no one bid on the rifle .
Now when i go up and preview their auctions I generally leave an absentee bid and before I do that I aks if the item has a reserve .

To be totally honest my patience for sitting in the auction house is next to nothing . There are a couple other places semi close to us that generally have semi annual gun auctions that my father and I attend . And generally if they have something I want I will wait since they are a bit of a drive . Also preview the same day as the auction which tends to make it longer . But sometimes it works out and alotta times it doesn't .

[Robin Lewis]

I sent them an email and asked them to explain why the guns didn't sell even though they hammered them as sold. If I get a reply, I will post it to this thread.

Here is the reply I said I would post. We had this figured out already but this is their response for your reading pleasure:corn::
Thank you very much for your inquiry.

These items along with most of the other items that did not sell, carried a reserve that was not met at the auction. As described in the Terms & Conditions of Sale in the front of our catalogue: “ (#9) – RESERVES: Some items in this auction may carry a conservative reserve. Therefore the auctioneer may bid on behalf of the owner or for the auction house. The purchaser will be the highest bidder acknowledged by the auctioneer. Please note that when an item carries a reserve, the reserve is usually somewhere below the low estimate in the catalog. Actual reserve figures cannot be divulged, but we will tell you if an item carries a reserve if you ask”.

During the auction, if an item has a reserve, the employee responsible for protecting the reserve, will bid competitively against the audience until the reserve is met or exceeded, or the bidding has ended. Therefore, if the last bid is on the person representing the reserve, then the auctioneer recognizes that bidder number as the purchaser and is registered as such. There is no way to acknowledge a “no sale” via the internet carrier Artfact during the auction, so what viewers will see is that the item hammered at such and such a price. I believe that this is true through most all Live auction internet carriers. This is why we post on our website, the next day, a listing of items that did not sell along with a Prices Realized list of all other items.

Perhaps Live Auction internet carriers should change from “Sold” to “Hammered”.

I hope this has answered your question. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any other questions.

Sincerely,

Judy Labbe
Department Head
Firearms Division
James D. Julia inc.

[Rich Anderson]

Well, Well, Well that sounds like a loada crap. What about when a gun is "hammered" for less than the reserve and they won't return it to the original owner but THEY meet the difference between hammered and reserve then sell it out the back door and the consignor is beat out of the deal.

I wouldn't bid on a gun from them no matter what it was. I know more than one person who got the wrong end of Julia's.

[Steve McCarty]

Aaaahhh, I think I'll do business elsewhere.

[George Lander]

I have bought a number of guns from James Julia's and, generally speaking, have found their condition to be better than described. I have never attended one of their auctions and do my bidding by absentee. I determine what I am willing to pay based on their description and leave it at that. By bidding on a number of items I usually get a few but don't get caught up in the bidding frenzy and end up paying more that I wanted to. If there is an item that I especially want I arrange for a phone bid but set my limits in advance. It works for me..........Best Regards, George

[Eric Eis]

I am glad that you have had good luck with Julia's, I haven't and their description of the item over the phone when I asked questions (ie barrel wall thickness) and I talked to Bill who was in charge of the gun department at that time and I took his word on the thickness and I bought the gun, four months later I got a wall thickness gauge and found the barrels were not 30 thousndths as Bill said, but 15 thousandths :shock: I talled to Les and he talked to Mr Julia and Mr Julia would not even refund my buyers commision :cuss: So no I will never do business with them again....

[George Lander]

Eric: It may be a case of them getting too big, too fast. It;s happened before (Holt's for example) They can never seem to appreciate that not giving a fair and positive response ends up costing them way more than if they had done the right thing to begin with. I guess that I've just been lucky with them.

Best Regards, George

[Steve McCarty]

Bad news travels farther and sticks harder than good news. We, who are shotgun nuts, are prime customers for Julia's product. It would behoove them to treat their customers well. I have never used them. I usually buy Parkers at gun shows or quality sporting goods stores. However, if I decided to try an auction, after reading what I have read here, I would hesitate.

[james julia]

March 28, 2012

Parker Gun Collectors Association
P.O. Box 151
Waconia, MN 55387

Dear Parker Gun Collectors Associates:

My name is James Julia. I own James D. Julia Auctioneers. I am also a member and supporter of the Parker Gun Collectors Association. A friend of mine just contacted me and made me aware of the current string of blogs here regarding my auction house and the practice of reserves, etc.

I am not sure of how many of you have actually participated live at my auctions before and/or consigned to me, but to those of you that haven’t, I’ve been involved in the auction business for approximately 45 years. During that time I have tried very hard to develop a reputation for honest and fair dealings and have been reasonably successful at the same. In doing so I have tried to develop a business model with printed conditions of sale that cover what I do and how I do it in an attempt to avoid any confusion or misunderstandings. In developing this business model and in implementing it, my goal is to be fair to three parties, (a) the seller; (b) the buyer; and (c) the auctioneer.

When developing my business model I was fully aware of the adage that is credited to Abraham Lincoln, one that I fully agree with. As I recall it goes something like this, “You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.” With that in mind, I know that no matter what I do, I will never please or satisfy everyone, but that is my goal.

1. Since there has been a lot of discussion of reserves at my auction, I would like to address that.
2. Also, one of the forum bloggers by the name of “Opening Day” indicated “Julia told me to pound sand when I asked him for a refund of the buyer’s premium.” I would like to address this also.

1. Regarding auction rules and reserves – How auctions are conducted vacillate dramatically from one auctioneer to the other, depending upon what state and/or city he operates in. New York City has perhaps the most stringent rules of all. Some states have absolutely no rules whatsoever, but all auctions in 50 of our states are required to be conducted in confirmation of UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) Statutes. These are the statutes that all auctioneers are supposed to abide by. Under UCC Statute §2-328, “Sale by Auction” Point (3) “Such a sale is with reserve unless the goods are in explicit terms put up without reserves. In an auction with reserve, the auctioneer may withdraw the goods at any time until he announced completion of the sale. In an auction without reserve, after the auctioneer calls for a bid on an article or lot, that article or lot cannot be withdrawn unless no bid is made within a reasonable time.” Therefore, technically, according to the UCC statutes, unless an auctioneer announces the sale is unreserved, there is absolutely no requirement on his behalf (at least in this state and most of the other states that I am aware of) to make any remarks about reserves at all since the auction is considered to be held with reserves.

However, I have a more defined procedure, one which is intended a) to be fair to the consignor, b) to be fair to the buyer, and c) to be fair to the auctioneer.

A. In regards to the seller, it specifically states on the reverse of my auction contract, under point 11. “Reserves” A reserve is an agreed-upon, confidential minimum price between the consignor and the auctioneer. If for any reason the item is sold for less than the reserve, the auctioneer will pay the consignor an amount equal to what the consignor would have received (on a net basis after deductions of commissions and all costs, fees or charges) had the items sold at the reserve price. So if I agree to a reserve with a client, I contractually agree that a) the reserve will be confidential and b) that if the item sells, that the least the person will receive is what the reserve would have been or more if it sells for more. Obviously if it does not sell, there is no sale and they simply receive the item back.

There is a specific reason for why the reserve is confidential, and that reason is to entice and encourage the client into establishing the lowest reserve possible. Buyers at auction want an opportunity to buy something good, but also an opportunity to buy it at a reasonable price. If my estimate is very high on a lot, it implies that the reserve could be very high thus less participation and a great likelihood that the item will not sell. On the other hand, if the client agrees to a very conservative reserve, the estimate can be conservative and therefore bidders are greatly enticed to participate. A consignor, therefore, on many occasions will risk a very conservative reserve with the idea and the likelihood that the item will bring well beyond their reserve. But since the reserve is confidential, if the gun does not sell, the seller is not stigmatized by everyone knowing what his reserve was.

The contract also protects the consignor should a mistake happen resulting in the gun selling under reserve. An auction is a complex business interaction, the culmination of many months of effort take place on one day. In that one day, we are fielding literally thousands of absentee bids and phone bids dealing with a large number of live bidders and continually fielding incoming phones calls, emails, etc. Behind the scenes is an incredibly complex series of multiple business transactions, all of which are intended to deal with everything in an expedient, honest and efficient manner. When so much is going on from time to time there can be a mistake, and if a reserve is $15,000 on a gun and by mistake the reserve is not executed and the gun sells at $12,000, I am obligated by contract to pay the consignor the $15,000, and that’s why it is in the contract, to provide that special protection to my consignor. One might say, “Well, if it didn’t meet the reserve, just don’t let the buyer have it”, but you can’t do that. According to UCC statutes 2-328, (2) “A sale by auction is complete when the auctioneers so announces by the fall of the hammer or in other customary manner.” Therefore, once the auctioneer says sold he cannot legally reopen the bidding because of financial reasons. The sale must stand. It is a good deal for the buyer, but the auctioneer gets the short end of the stick. Of course he made the mistake, so he should pay. The consignor is protected by my auction contract, and he will get the full $15,000, less any appropriate commissions.

B. In regards to the buyer and reserves – In the conditions of sale at the front of my auction catalogue, under point #9 “Reserves. Some items in this auction may carry a conservative reserve. Therefore the auctioneer may bid on behalf of the owner or for the auction house. The purchaser will be the highest bidder acknowledged by the auctioneer. Please note that when a lot carries a reserve, the reserve is usually somewhere below the low estimate in the catalog. Actual reserve figures cannot be divulged, but we will tell you if an item carries a reserve should you ask.”

This clause was specifically designed for the protection of my buyer. I specifically want the buyer to know in advance that there is a possibility that a reserve could exist, and I don’t rely upon the UCC statutes or the understanding of them by the lay person, I specifically state it in the conditions of my sale so that my potential buyer knows this. UCC statutes do not state where the reserve must be, and subsequently if the gun is estimated at $18,000-$22,000, literally the reserve could be $25,000, and some auctioneers may do this, but I don’t. I specifically indicate that usually the reserve is below the low estimate. Sometimes because of a mistake it ends up on the low estimate, but usually it is below the low estimate. By stating this it warns a bidder before he comes, that the gun estimated at $18,000-$22,000 might carry a reserve, but if it does the reserve might be as high as $18,000. Subsequently, that buyer makes a decision before he comes as to whether that price range is amenable to him. If he only wished to pay $15,000, he is taking a gamble to come.

The third aspect about that condition of sale is that it specifically states, if you want to know if there is a reserve, I will tell you. So if the buyer coming for that specific Parker, estimated at $18,000-$22,000 does not want to make the trip if there is a reserve in effect, all he needs to do is call me. We check our records and if the gun carries a reserve, we will acknowledge that. We cannot and will not tell him precisely what the reserve is because I have a contract with the buyer that states that his reserve is confidential (for the reasons mentioned above). We will, however, give them a hint if they push us. In this specific example here, if the client were to say, “I’m traveling all of the way from Ohio to bid on this gun, and I understand there is a reserve. Can you tell me what the reserve is?” Our response would be, “We can’t tell you what the reserve is, but (assuming the reserve is $15,000, we would go on to say), we can tell you that the reserve is close to the $18,000 but under it. If you’re willing to buy this gun for somewhere approaching $18,000 or a little under, you should come because you do have a chance of buying it. But if you are hoping to buy it for $10,000-$12,000, don’t come because that won’t happen.”

C. In regards to the auctioneer – In my business model, I, as an auctioneer, am a businessman and I am in the business to make money and in order to make money, I must attract consignors. Many potential consignors with valuable Parker shotguns are not willing to put up a $15,000 or $20,000 shotgun and take a risk on it selling for $6,000. (Although this rarely ever happens at our auctions, you never can guarantee it.) Subsequently, I understand this and if the client wishes, I am willing to negotiate a reserve but I try to negotiate reserves that are realistic and reflective of value.

This is not a perfect system. It is not always possible to know exactly what a gun is worth, and sellers sometimes have unreasonable expectations. If we are convinced that their requested reserve is beyond what the gun will likely sell for, we will honestly tell them and encourage them to consider something less or we won’t take it at all. Sometimes we take a gun with a reserve on it that we think is realistic and as it turns out, it doesn’t sell and therefore our reserve was not realistic. Like I said, this is not a perfect system.

The above is the business model that I have established regarding reserves, and as I said earlier, is an attempt to be fair to the seller, fair to the buyer and fair to the auctioneer. I realize that not everyone would agree with my business model and depending upon whether you are a buyer or a seller, you might reason that it should be done in a different manner, but this is the model that I have chosen, and as I’ve said, I’ve tried to do so in a transparent manner that would be fair to everyone.

In regards to how the reserve is executed – For those of you who have been to my auction, you’ve all heard my spiel which I repeat over and over again at the commencement of every auction, and part of that spiel is in regards to how bids are handled, whether it is a reserve or an absentee bid. If we have a reserve or an absentee bid on a gun, it is bid competitively by a clerk who very obviously sits at a table in the auction hall with the bidders. She treats reserves and absentee bids the exact same way. If she only has one bid, and let us assume it is a reserve, she does not start with the reserve. She lets the audience start the bidding and then she competes with them until she wins or loses the item. Assuming that the reserve is $15,000, someone in the audience might start the gun at $9,000. If the auctioneer is asking for $10,000, the clerk executing the reserve will automatically bid the $10,000 on behalf of the reserve. The person in the audience might bid $11,000. Again the clerk bids $12,000 executing the reserve. The audience goes $13,000; she goes $14,000. If the audience bidder goes $15,000, then they would buy it (if no one else in the audience goes more. (The clerk is all done of course because the reserve was met.)

When the gun is hammered down on a reserve, I simply announce the reserve number. All bidders and reserve have a bidder number. This is how we keep track of who the absentee bidder or who the reserve is for our bookkeeping records. If you sit in the audience and if the bookkeeper purchased something, you obviously do not know at that moment whether she purchased it for a live bidder or whether she bought it on a reserve bid, but to be reasonable about the matter, the fact is you were not willing to go any higher and whether it was a reserve or another live bidder that bid that extra bid, it was beyond where you were willing to go. Remember, my auction contract with the seller specifically states that the reserve is confidential.

(I presume this is what “Chilled Shot” is referring to when he references a friend whose gun did not meet reserve and yet he couldn’t get his gun back.) “Chilled Shot’s” friend did get his reserve price – I guarantee you. But I can also guarantee you that after the sale has taken place, whether we’ve made a mistake and sold it for under the reserve or sold it over the reserve, I cannot go back and cancel a sale and take the gun back due to the UCC statute mentioned earlier. So “Chilled Shot’s” friend did receive the reserve price and if he did not receive the reserve, less appropriate commissions, I would greatly appreciate being notified, with his name and details so that I can go back and investigate.

After the auction we continue to be transparent and honest if the gun did not meet its reserve and did not sell, it is not posted on the prices realized list, making it very clear that it did not sell and didn’t meet its reserve. Again, this is not a rule or a requirement in most states. We do that because we consider it to be an honest disclosure to all observers and participants.

Also, in consideration of our buyers, sellers and the auctioneers, we have a practice after the auction that anything that did not sell is posted on a public listing, and if you should have interest in it, you can simply call our office, extend to us an offer which we will convey to the seller. If the offer is accepted by the seller, then we can sell it via private treaty.

In regards to reserves being automatically half of the low estimate – this is absolutely NOT the case at my auction house, and again – during my spiel at the beginning of the auction, I disclose to everyone in attendance that if an item does not open for 25-30% of its low estimate, it will be passed and not reoffered during the auction. In other words, if a gun is estimated at $15,000-$22,000, and if the gun doesn’t open at around $5,000, it would simply be passed by and we would go on to the next lot. The idea being that if no one is willing to pay 1/3rd of its lowest estimate, then there really isn’t any significant interest. If the item does not meet its reserve and does not sell, the owner may simply take his gun back after the auction or if he wishes us to try it again, he must readjust the reserve. Obviously if the gun was reserved at $15,000 and it didn’t sell, the reserve must have been too high, and so subsequently if we are going to offer it again, the reserve must be lowered in order to be realistic and fair to the buyer, the auctioneer and the seller.

One important thing to note here is that not all auctioneers use the same conditions of sale. Most high profile auction companies, such as mine, use conditions that are somewhat similar to mine but there can be dramatic and major differences at small local auction houses. I have heard plenty of cases in which some auctioneers didn’t abide by the UCC statutes, and they might sell an item and then five minutes later cancel the sale for some reason or reoffer the item again for some reason. I have heard of some small auction houses that might have an item with a $5,000 reserve and they publish the reserve figure in their ad or announce it at the auction. I have heard of some auctioneers executing reserves by getting a friend to sit in the audience and disguise themselves as an auction participant and bid the reserve. Most auction houses are reputable and intend to do things in an honest manner just as we do, but that’s not always the case.

I hope what I have said here has clarified reserves and how they are handled at my company.

2. One of the bloggers titled, “Opening Day” made reference to being badly treated by me and/or my firm. I tried to find out who “Opening Day” is. I noticed in the forum rules, it says we are supposed to use our name, and I hoped that I could find his name so that I could go back to our records and find out just what happened. If “Opening Day” would contact me at jjulia@jamesdjulia.com, I would greatly appreciate it. In fact, if you have a string of email correspondence between yourself and my auction company, and if you would forward that along to me, it would be very helpful. I would like to know the details.

Usually when a problem occurs and there is an altercation, it is brought to my attention at some point in time, and I never ever tell anyone to go pound sand, regardless of how reasonable or unreasonable they are. As I said earlier in this letter, my response to all issues at auction are based on printed conditions of sale and contractual agreements – things that I must abide by – all of which were developed for the benefit of the buyer, the seller and the auctioneer. It is not infrequent that a situation arises in which I respond based on the printed conditions, but a consignor is upset with me because the conditions weren’t in their favor. I cannot change the conditions of my sale for that individual because it suits their need. It may be that this is not the situation here – but if there was something promised by me or my firm that was not followed through upon, I need to know. If there was something that wasn’t responded to, I need to know. That is not the way I do business, and as I said earlier, for those of you who have done business with me for a long time, you know that to be true.

I am sorry that my letter is so long but obviously there are a number of people here that had questions or speculation about reserves, and I hope that my response adequately explains just exactly how things work and why. Thank you for the opportunity to share this with you all.

Sincerely,

Jim Julia

[Dean Romig]

Jim, let me be the first to applaud you for taking the time to explain your business model regarding reserves and how you conduct your business around them. I still have unanswered questions but I will take them off the public forum in respect to your respectful response to us.

I'll contact you privately,
Dean Romig

[Eric Eis]

Mr. Julia, if you click on my forum name you will see my name with is Eric Eis and I argree with Dean that we should probably discuss this off the forum either by pm or phone.
Best,
Eric
eiseric@aol.com

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Thank you Jim Julia for explaining your auction procedure, and thank you Dean and Eric for handling this in a gentlemanly way which we as Parker collectors need to do. The PGCA and Julias will be better served by addressing issues such as this out in the open.

[Phillip Carr]

MR Julia,

Very good explanation of the process. This clears up a few items for me on the sale of a firearm on through your auction. If I was to place a reserve price higher than the auction house's recommendation on a gun, and it did not sell. Is there any cost, as a seller I would incur? Also since it is my gun that did not sell can the gun be sent back to me, or must it go back through a licensed FFL dealer, and be reregistered back in my name?

[Rich Anderson]

Here's a question for you Mr. Julia. If I put a gun into your auction and my reserve is say $6000 and it hammers for $4000 do I get my gun back as it didn't make the reserve i wanted for it?

[james julia]

Mr. Julia and family are currently out of the country for a short time. Upon his return he will respond to the pending questions.

[james julia]

Dear C.O.B. and Phil C.,

Since both of your questions deal with reserves I thought I would answer them in one response. First of all, thank you very much for these terrific questions. There has been a little bit of misinformation on reserves and some incorrect speculation about how they are handled at my auction and thus I am grateful for an opportunity to clear them up.

Many but not all people request reserves when they are consigning valuable guns. Reserves, when used, can have a critical impact upon the success of the sale. It of course provides protection but if the seller wishes too high a reserve, it will generally assure that the gun won’t sell. As I’ve indicated in my previous letter, reserves at my auction are usually below low estimate, and in the very worst case, at low estimate. Therefore the reserve impacts upon the estimate. High reserves mean a high estimate.

There are always at least two reasons a buyer bids on a gun at auction, a) It is something he wants; and b) the estimate is reasonable and realistic and thus he feels he might have a chance at buying it. Therefore a high reserve will almost always disparage bidders and those usually result in no bidders at all. Whereas an enticing and conservation estimate will almost always drive the interested party to participate. Success at auction is based on a simple formula which goes like this: The greatest participation = the greatest competition which = the greatest rate of return. Therefore, (1) if the estimate in the catalog is rather conservative, a number of people will participate all with the same idea in mind, “I’m going to own that gun”, and this is the formula for success. Low reserves and highly conservative estimates usually equal the greatest participation and strong and sometimes spectacular sale prices. (2) Less than enticing reserves result in minimal participation and rarely is there a frenzied participation and aggressiveness that occurs in scenario number 1, and therefore if the gun sells, frequently it is right at the reserve or a little above. (3) High and aggressive reserves will almost assure that few or no bidders participate at all. Thus a no sale and you get the gun back.

When a client requests a reserve we always try to encourage them to go with the most conservative reserve possible because we know the likelihood of a sale and the potential of the gun selling for
a lot of money is dependent upon a conservative and realistic reserve and thus estimate. Based on our recent past experiences with similar guns we will usually suggest (if asked) what an appropriate reserve should be. If the client is satisfied with our suggested reserve and should the gun not sell at auction, there is no cost to the seller except for the 1% insurance charge (the gun had to be insured whether it sold or not) and whatever the packaging and shipping charges are for return (unless he picked it up himself). If a client’s required reserve figure is far above where we think it will sell, we generally decline the consignment. Obviously anything we offer costs us a fair amount of money to process and promote, and if we’re certain it is not going to sell, everyone loses.

Sometimes if a client wants what we consider to be a high reserve and is insistent on including the gun in an auction, in some cases we might acquiesce but tell them that if we offer it and it does not sell that there will be a special buy in fee that they will have to pay us if it doesn’t sell. (This rarely happens.)

On very rare occasions a client might not request any reserve at all or agree to an appropriate reserve, but later after we have paid to photograph it, catalog it, print it in the catalog, promote it and insure it, etc., for some reason might request a much higher reserve. Technically the terms of our original agreement are already outlined in the contract and can’t be changed after the item is consigned, however in such case, there is a clause in our contract that allows for this but it also stipulates a special buy in fee will be charged if it does not sell. Obviously if the reserve is raised, we would also have to change the estimate to reflect the new, higher reserve. Since the catalog is already printed, it’s too late to put it in the catalog so we make a note online, make an addenda on our online catalog explaining that there is a new, higher estimate, we put a note beside the gun on display with the same information, we put a note in the catalog to remind the auctioneer to announce it at the time of sale, and we will contact anyone who set up for an absentee bid on this gun and alert them of the change also. (All of this is very rare.)

When a gun has a reserve, it stipulates in our contract that the reserve will be confidential and thus we will not divulge the exact reserve to anyone (however we will admit if asked that there is a reserve on that lot). “If for any reason the item is sold less than the reserve, the auctioneer will pay the consignor an amount equal to what the consignor would have received (on a net basis after deductions of commissions and all costs, fees or charges).” Therefore, if you consign a gun with a reserve of $6,000 and by accident the reserve is not executed and the gun is subsequently sold at $4,000, you will be paid the same monies you would have had the gun sold for $6,000, so our contract guarantees and protects you along those lines. Rarely does this happen and so if a gun was reserved at $6,000 and the bidding only got up to $4,000, our clerk, executing the reserve bids, would “buy your gun in” and the gun would be a no sale and returned to you as outlined above.

In regards to the return of a modern shotgun which has been offered at auction. As a licensed federal firearms dealer we are required to specifically follow federal law and your home state mandates. By federal law if we ship the gun, it must be delivered to an FFL holder. If you do not have an FFL, it is a simple procedure to make arrangements with a nearby gun dealer who will receive the gun for you, log it into his books, then log it out to you. This procedure must be followed by all federally licensed firearm dealers – there are no exceptions. If you drive to our facilities to pick up your modern shotgun, and if you are not an FFL holder, you will need to fill out Form 4473 (the same form you would have had to fill out at the gun dealer’s had you picked it up at the gun dealer’s), and then by law we are required to comply with background check requirements and then you are free to take the gun with you.

I think I have covered all of your questions. I am sorry for such a lengthy reply but I’ve tried to make sure to cover everything so hopefully there are no misunderstandings. Thanks again for your great questions.

Sincerely,

Jim Julia

[Rick Losey]

Mr. Julia

Great explaination - I am certain many of us have learned a bit from it.

[Rich Anderson]

So what your saying is if I put a gun into your auction at a $6000 reserve and it sells for $4000 I'll get the gun back as the clerk would "Buy in" for the reserve and therefor there would be no sale.

If I understand this correctly and this is supposed to be how it works I know of one instance where that didn't happen and the gun wasn't returned to the owner. It didn't meet the reserve he set and was subsequently sold on the side to another person. He did not get his gun back.

[Robin Lewis]

Dear C.O.B. and Phil C.,

“If for any reason the item is sold less than the reserve, the auctioneer will pay the consignor an amount equal to what the consignor would have received (on a net basis after deductions of commissions and all costs, fees or charges).” Therefore, if you consign a gun with a reserve of $6,000 and by accident the reserve is not executed and the gun is subsequently sold at $4,000, you will be paid the same monies you would have had the gun sold for $6,000, so our contract guarantees and protects you along those lines.

If I read this correctly, the gun must have been sold to someone other than the the person bidding for Jim while bids are below the reserve. So, if he makes a mistake and sells the gun for less than the reserve to Joe Average bidder, Jim will make up the difference to insure the consignor gets the reserve amount. At least that is the way I read it?

[Rich Anderson]

I think the long and the short of all this wordsmithing is if your gun goes to auction you arn't ever going to see it again.

[Scott Janowski]

It looks to me like you will either receive at least your reserve or the gun back. If you are worried about it selling low, just make sure your reserve is high enough.
Seems pretty simple to me.
My question is what if the bidder stiffs? Let's say you reserve your gun at 5K, it sells for 7K ....but the buyer stiffs. Do you have the option of getting the gun back or do you just get the reserve payment of 5K less fees?

[Eric Eis]

I'll hold my thoughts for one more day to see if Mr Julia responds to my response (I sent the email on Wed night) to his email to me which did not answer my only question that I had for him. We'll see.....

[james julia]

As I previously stated in my explanation regarding reserves, reserved guns are handled just exactly the way I stated in my letter, and all sold the way that Bindlestiff interpreted. The gun either sells at auction, and in such case, the owner is paid the full proceeds less commission and expense charges. If by accident, the gun is sold for less than the reserve, then I have to make up the difference, and I do. If the gun is bought in by the clerk in executing the reserve, and therefore does not sell, it is not my gun, it is still the consignors, and the gun is returned to the consignor unless the consignor makes other arrangements with us. We do not arbitrarily sell anyone’s guns to anyone. That is a fact, and there are no exceptions. If C.O.B. would please e-mail me at my e-mail address, and give me the details on the issue he has been referring to, I would be glad to investigate it, but there is no situation in which I or my staff ever sold a client’s gun after the auction on the side and refused to give it back to them.

[Eric Eis]

Well I got the final letter from Mr Julia, and no he will not take responsibilty for his gun manager mismeasuring the wall thickness of the D grade that I purchased. He pointed out his 45 day warranty (which he says is the best in the industry) and said since I found out about this problem in June (auction was March) I was outside the window and there was nothing he could do. As I pointed out to him, I did not ask for a refund but I did ask for my buyer's premium back since it was his employee that made the mistake, which I felt was fair as I was just asking for the profit that he made off of me (I have already too much money invested in this gun since I have had another set of barrels fitted to it). He said no again, not sure why he asked me to take the time to email him again to "discuss" when he already knew what he was going to say to me. So I guess I was wrong in believing he wanted to right this wrong as it was his employee that made the mistake. So for those of you that wanted to know the final outcome there it is. Eric

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Quite an upstanding business man our Mr. Julia, really somebody we should be proud to have in the auction industry and as a contributing member of the forum. *clears throat*

DLH

[George Lander]

Jim Julia is in the business of selling someone else's guns, etc. He has published his policies for anyone to read. As stated he does have a return privilege of 45 days. I have bought a number of guns thru his auction and although a few were lacking in minor respects the majority were as advertised or better. I have never returned one to him or any other auction house. "CAVEAT EMPTOR"

Best Regards, George

[Destry L. Hoffard]

George if this happened to you personally you'd be squalling like a mashed cat and we all know it. Eric Eis is one of the most respected members of this forum, I'm completely on his side in this. I can't imagine why you feel you've got to jump in and carry Julia's water for him. He doesn't even know who you are and would treat you the same way he treated Eric.

DLH

[Stephen Hodges]

I have no “dog” in this matter (or cat, bird or any other critter), and should probably just keep this to myself, but here goes. I think a large company like James Julia, who prides themselves in running a fair and honest business, and certainly a profitable one, should not “hide” behind a 45 day return rule when it comes to one of their own employees making a mistake such as this one did. They should make this matter right with a smile on their face, Period.
:)

[charlie cleveland]

i think you said it rite... charlie

[Mike Shepherd]

So should Mr Julia's "not-as-described return time" be 45 days, 60 day, 90 days, one year, his lifetime or the buyer's lifetime? If he declines to go the extra mile beyond his stated terms and conditions I don't think he should be criticized here for refusing to return the premium. Perhaps he holds the seller's money until the 45 days are up. I dont know.

I think 45 days is long enough to thoroughly check out a gun, including wall thicknesses. Checking wall thickness is one of the first things I do when I have a gun in for inspection. A very good wall thickness gauge can be had for $200.

Best,

Mike

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I think the whole point here is that you shouldn't have to double check wall thickness on a gun after getting the word from someone who holds themselves up as high as Julia's does.

Should you? Yes

Should you have to? No

[Rich Anderson]

Mr. Julia please check your PM's.

[Dean Romig]

In My Humble Opinion I think if anyone else has something to say to Mr. Julia It should be done by PM or personal email. He has provided us with more than enough information on how he conducts his business... even more than we have asked for. I believe he has answered our questions to the best of his abilities without getting into the minute details of each transaction that a few of us might wish to discuss with him in private without "airing the dirty laundry" of some less than satisfied people here. It would do a disservice to all involved to delve any deeper into particular issues one might have with a certain transaction. I think we all have a pretty good idea of the feelings and opinions of some of the participants of this thread But I think any further discussion with Mr. Julia or with each other on this issue should be done off-line - as I said, PM or personal email... otherwise we're :dh: and at risk of having this thread blocked and I think there is too much good information here than to have it disappear. :cool:

P.S. I have not contacted Mr. Julia about my concerns and may not... "water over the dam" at this point with me.

[George Lander]

Quite an upstanding business man our Mr. Julia, really somebody we should be proud to have in the auction industry and as a contributing member of the forum. *clears throat*

DLH

Destry: It seems that I'm not the first one to "jump in & carry water" as you succintly put it. On the contrary, I do know Jim Julia and several members of his staff and as far as I'm concerned he is as straight as an arrow. JMHO

Best Regards, George:bigbye:

[Destry L. Hoffard]

If he was straight as an arrow he'd have given Eric back his $750 buyers premium. That's the amount of money we're talking about. Should be a drop in the bucket to a person like our Mr. Julia. He must really be hurting for cash, if he's let this all go this far......


DLH

[Bill Murphy]

Amarillo Mike has one of the most pertinent points on this thread, except that he is not up to date on perfectly acceptable wall thickness gauges. You can have a Manson gauge from Brownells for about half what Mike states. By the time most collectors amass a half million dollar shotgun collection, they have had a hundred dollar Manson gauge for many years. Just my inner soft spot talking.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Bill,

Did you read what I had to say? When you buy from somebody like Julia, there shouldn't be mistakes like this. If you buy a gun from them and ask for wall thickness what they tell you should be the gospel. Do you disagree?


DLH

[Eric Eis]

Bill, I have a wall thickness gauge now, bought it in June of that year (end of March was the auction) that's how I found out about the problem. Like Destry say's I believed them, my mistake, now I have the gauge, just a little late....

[Bill Murphy]

Destry, sorry, these guys have no idea what they are selling and don't want to know. You have to be the inspector. A good time to do that is the day you open the box. This is no disrespect to the auction houses to say that they have no idea what they are sell, but "They have no idea what they are selling."

[Christopher Lien]

I do know one person that put a gun up there with a reserve and the reserve was not met; AND he didn't get his gun back as expected. It seems they can simply give you the reserve as payment (less the seller's premium) and they keep the gun.
--------------------------------
AND he subsequently called and made a fuss and had a half-hour discussion with the representative about his displeasure with their way of doing business... AND he was told in the course of this discussion that on the reverse side of the contract he should have been informed of paragraph D but wasn't... AND he never received his catalog for this March 2012 auction...
-------------------------------

With reference to the above statements, it would be interesting to know what actually took place with the gun Robin and Dean have mentioned here... And, if they "simply give you the reserve as payment (less the seller's premium) and they keep the gun.",,,, does the gun then become the company-owned property of James D. Julia, which he can then sell privately or run through another auction at a later date?... Is this a common occurrence?...

CSL
__________________________
.

[Dean Romig]

PM sent Chris.

[Mark Ouellette]

"They have no idea what they are selling."

Murphy,

I think you are correct but the perception is that Julia's is one of the premier gun auctions in this country if not the world! Buying a Parker from Julia's would be as if I were buying it from you. If you told me that the gun has MBWT of .0xx" I'd expect it to be true based on your reputation as a Parker expert. Please accept this as a compliment to your Parker expertise.

There are of course other persons and companies that I would not trust to provide accurate information. Nor would I ever lower myself to buy anything from them. Why should I contribute to their vacations?

This thread is enlightening because at least three respected members of our Parker community have questioned the business dealings of this auction house based on their negative experiances. Although legally the auction house did nothing wrong, my perception of this business entity has been lowered substantially.

I have reached the point in my gun collecting that I am ready to accumulate 5-figure firearms. Three seperate strikes against persons whom I respect indicates that I should look elsewhere.

Perhaps an in-depth investigative artical on "Understanding Gun Auctions" is called for.

"non melior amicus, non nequior hostis"

Mark

[Rick Losey]

so - here as in all cases (and sadly it seems all businesses)

Caveat emptor


in the end - its your money, spend wisely

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, Rich. Good dealers sell bad guns and bad dealers sell good guns. You are the inspector. I will deal with almost anyone who occasionally has a good gun.

[George Lander]

Yup, Rich. Good dealers sell bad guns and bad dealers sell good guns. You are the inspector. I will deal with almost anyone who occasionally has a good gun.

And if I am successful in buying it I will look at it as soon as it arrives and if there is no substantial dificiency that was not disclosed in the description I will keep it and if there is I will contact the auction company immediately and let them know my concerns. That "puts the ball in their court" and it is then up to them to make it right whether that means returning it for full refund or lowering the price to compensate for the dificiencyJMHO.

George

[charlie cleveland]

george what if they want do anything to correct there mistake you found after contacting them... charlie

[George Lander]

Charlie: If I informed them shortly (within a week or two) after receiving the gun that it was misrepresented by them (either intentionally or unintentionelly) and they refused to make it right, I would seek legal recourse if the amount warrented that. If not, I would spread the word, like on this & other forums, of the exact details of what happened which might cost them a whole lot more in the long run than it would have if they had done the right thing in the beginning. That does not seem to be the case here. It sounds like too much time elapsed between the purchase & delivery and the difficiencies being brought to their attention. On the other hand, it does seem that it would be in Julia's best interest to offer a reasonable offer to settle and retain the goodwill of their customer. however, none of us know all the particulars of the issues involved between the two parties but them.

Best Regards, George

[james julia]

Hello. I’ve been away for some time and am in my office today but will be gone tomorrow for a matter of days to do a decoy auction in the Midwest. Upon arriving at my office a friend alerted me to the continued discussions on the forum in regards to my company.

When I responded to Mr. Eis’s complaint, it was suggested to “discuss this off forum either by PM or phone”. I assumed that it meant just that, but I see that after we discussed this, Mr. Eis then shared online his personal interpretation of what transpired. So that everyone can know exactly what transpired, I have included the complete thread here online. I would have gladly done so originally in an attempt to be transparent, but I misunderstood the meaning of dealing with it offline.

After learning Mr. Eis’s name, I wrote him a letter which is attached here, requesting the details about his complaint. Since I had no personal recollection I indicated that if he would give me the details I would research it and that “I do wish to get to the bottom of this”. I did not promise I would make any adjustment, however, if in fact after my investigation had I discovered my company had done something totally wrong, there would have been some type of an adjustment, but as a result of my investigation, that is not the case.

In regards to guarantees, if I’m not mistaken in the gun world frequently when one buys a gun through the mail, the seller often gives an inspection period to the buyer to determine if the gun is as it was touted to be. I sometimes see an inspection period of 24 hours; I sometimes see inspection periods of 7 days, but I see no one that provides an inspection period of 45 days. My company, however, does. I don’t know of any auction firm that in writing offers a warrantee regarding guns (I may be wrong), but we do. We specifically offer a warrantee and it is good for 45 days, but the warrantee is very clear. While I have a responsibility to cancel a sale or make an adjustment to the client (if I can), it is my responsibility provided that they notify me within the time period. However, the client also has a responsibility and that responsibility is to review the gun when they get it and do their due diligence to make sure that there are no problems.

Because this purported error took place is not a matter of my being honest or dishonest. We all make mistakes and one of the things that is implied in the conditions of my sale and also announced verbally at the beginning of an auction is that I am fully aware that regardless of how many experts I use to review things, there are bound to be some mistakes. If it is a mistake; it is a mistake; it is not an intention on our behalf; that’s not the way we do business. I also share through the conditions of my sale and also through verbal announcements that we do a number of things to protect our customers, and all of those things we do, we hold ourselves to be responsible for, but the buyer in turn, also have a responsibility. We know that with every catalog we print there are going to be a handful of mistakes in their for sure, and to protect our customers we supply a limited guarantee, good for 45 days, it is a customer’s responsibility to review the things during that time period or, request an extension of time to finish their examination is necessary. If you don’t do your due diligence and you wait for some long period afterwards to finally examine the item and then discover a problem with it, it is too late. It would make no difference whether this was a truck, a computer or a television set. Most things tend to have warrantee periods but if the complaint comes long after the warrantee period has expired, there’s not much anyone can do, and that’s essentially the bottom line here.

The gun in question was described in my catalog as having a left barrel with .019 thousandths of an inch; the right barrel being .017 thousandths of an inch (not .015??). The gun in question was Lot 1348 in our Spring 2009 auction. So that there can be no misunderstanding, the catalog description is of course in print in any of your catalogs and you can refer to it to make sure that I am accurate. If you don’t have a catalog, you can simply go online to our website, go to that specific auction, and go to that specific lot number and you will see the catalog description that was printed with the catalog when it was produced. As I said in my letter, I can’t contradict Mr. Eis regarding what thickness Bill Taylor could have told him or anything else that they may have had for conversations. Bill no longer works for me, and I have no records of anything along these lines. All I know is that if I were buying this gun and the catalog stated the barrels were .017 and .019 and later someone told me the barrels were .030 instead, the first thing I would do when I got the gun was check it. I only wish that Mr. Eis did what he was responsible for because if he had done his due diligence in time, and had I been notified in time I would have simply canceled the sale of the gun and given him his money back (or made an adjustment if possible at that time). The issue here is that he didn’t.

I personally consider it unfair when someone holds me responsible for something that was a lack of their own due diligence. Mr. Eis essentially expected me to change the conditions of my sale because he had neglected to do what he was responsible to do in the appropriate time period. If I or any other business regularly changes the conditions of their sale to suit all buyers’ demands, even when they are in the wrong, eventually the business will go broke. I try to be consistently fair with everyone. I feel that if I do something for one client, I must do it for all others, and if I were to change the conditions of my sale simply to suit Mr. Eis’s desires, it would only be fair that I do that for everyone and I can’t. Regardless of the circumstances I am sorry that Mr. Eis has a problem with us, but the specific conditions of my sale had offered him more than adequate protection to save him from mistakes. Forty-five days is a long time. Again, I repeat, under no circumstances did I or anyone else on my staff tell Mr. Eis to “go pound sand” nor have I “trashed” him, as he has purported.

Sincerely,

Jim Julia

[Destry L. Hoffard]

It's interesting to know that Mr. Julia considers his good name worth less than $750. Should be a pittance to a man of his supposed means.

And again I'll say, when you buy a gun from someone like Julia's you shouldn't have to check the wall thickness when you asked their staff in advance what it was. These are mistakes that shouldn't be made. If they are made, they should be put right quietly and quickly when the issue comes to light no matter the time frame.

This all just lets you know who not to buy from boys.


Destry L. Hoffard

[Bruce Day]

Jim thanks for your clear explanation. I know JR Larue and Wes Dillon but have not met you. Had long talks with your people at the NRA convention. I get your catalogs and will continue to look for something I can't do without. Thanks for your support of the PGCA.

[Bill Murphy]

I am a bit confused about the gun in question. Mr. Julia kindly gave us the catalog reference to the gun in question, if #1348 in the Spring 2009 catalog is the gun in question. Eric says the claim was made that the MBWT was claimed to be .030 and it turned out to be .015. The catalog states .017 and .019. Was the catalog wording changed? Did Eric call Julia's to get a confirmation of the .017 and .019? Why would anyone even think about buying such a gun in the first place? If Eric was told on the phone that the thickness was .030, why was the catalog description not changed? Maybe Eric will answer this question so we don't have to reread eight pages of forum text. This is not a gun most of us would give a second look, especially when it was described as having been redone and with bad barrels and a $6000 to $8000 estimate. Where did those numbers come from? I'm sure Mr. Julia's staff figured they had a sure "No Sale".

[Eric Eis]

I am a bit confused about the gun in question. Mr. Julia kindly gave us the catalog reference to the gun in question, if #1348 in the Spring 2009 catalog is the gun in question. Eric says the claim was made that the MBWT was claimed to be .030 and it turned out to be .015. The catalog states .017 and .019. Was the catalog wording changed? Did Eric call Julia's to get a confirmation of the .017 and .019? Why would anyone even think about buying such a gun in the first place? If Eric was told on the phone that the thickness was .030, why was the catalog description not changed? Maybe Eric will answer this question so we don't have to reread eight pages of forum text. This is not a gun most of us would give a second look, especially when it was described as having been redone and with bad barrels and a $6000 to $8000 estimate. Where did those numbers come from? I'm sure Mr. Julia's staff figured they had a sure "No Sale".

Bill, I will say one more time and then let's move on. The catalog stated, .017 on the gun I purchased and the other two 16's were stated thin also, so I called Bill and said I thought that was strange that all three were thin. He asked which one I was interested in and I told him. He called me back later that day and said the catalog was wrong and he personally had measured it and it was .030. When I got the Hosford gauge in June and measured it it was .015 in the middle of the barrel by the rib.

Mr. Julia I didn't post after our emails (not sure why you felt you needed to post the emails (or the ethics of that) and no I didn't look at the pdf file so I don't know if they are the originals or editted) so I don't know what you are talking about. Also I never have said in any post that you "Trashed" me, but I would say this last post that you made might fit into that catagory....! I guess you had a Bad Day on Friday and felt that you needed to vent.... so be it and hopefully this next week will be better for you.

Bruce, I don't remember the Julia Company supporting the PGCA like Puglisi's or Tony at CSMC so I am not sure what you are talking about but I am sure they will continue sending you their catalogs...

[Bill Murphy]

The Hosford gauge take some understanding. Are you sure of those measurements. I find it hard to believe that a gun with .665 bores would be so thin. I have never seen the outside of a set of "nice" barrels struck to a MBWT of .017. I have a suspicion that this gun is not as bad as it seems.

[Eric Eis]

The Hosford gauge take some understanding. Are you sure of those measurements. I find it hard to believe that a gun with .665 bores would be so thin. I have never seen the outside of a set of "nice" barrels struck to a MBWT of .017. I have a suspicion that this gun is not as bad as it seems.

Bill it is what it is I have already fitted another set of barrels to it (couple of people after me measured it too). So let's just let this thread die, Mr Julia is not going to change my mind and he is not going to change mine. So let's just say it ok to "disagree" and drop this subject. Ok....

[Jeff Kuss]

I think I must agree with Eric, We must agree to disagree and go on. This thread is closed