Real Deal Case Colors

[Bruce Day]

The way they were made.


Now I'm no expert, but I have wondered why we usually see color differences between the trigger plate and frame on internal hammer guns and the sideplates and frame on external hammer guns. So I have asked around and the responses from people who do case colors is that the frame must remain soft(er) than the plates in order to withstand firing shocks, so they are treated differently during the case hardening process. As a result, the plates retain color longer when exposed to wear.

Bruce Day, Parker beginner and aspiring neophite

[Brian Dudley]

Wouldn't the parts be all assembled during the CCH process?

[Bruce Day]

No. Not at all. Each type of part is packed into the case hardening crucible separately. What I have learned is that the crucibles containing the various parts are not subjected to the same furnance time.

[Bill Murphy]

Deleted. I asked the same question and got my answer. Thanks.

[edgarspencer]

What I have learned is that the crucibles containing the various parts are not subjected to the same furnance time.
Are you certain of that? I received regular orders from Colt, in West Hartford for these "crucible". In the case of Colt, they were a 5x5x10" box, cast in a martensitic alloy (called CA6-NM, for those that care) I have been in the heat treating department at Colts many times, and, at least in their case, the boxes aren't unclamped until back to room temperature.

[Dean Romig]

The parts were strategically placed in the crucibles with bone, shards of hide and various other biologic 'packing' around the parts. The frame was not placed in the crucibles as an assembled unit.

[edgarspencer]

After my last post, I decided Bruce is right, in that the parts, after the normalizing cycle at 1650-1700 degrees, get a temper/stress relieving cycle, at under 1125 degrees, in a controlled atmosphere furnace, and not in the boxes they are normalized in.
Dean is correct. They are individually heat treated. The secret to the color is in the packing, and composition of carbon bearing packing material.
I never hear anyone mention it today, but one of the old materials was horse manure. No $hit !

[Dean Romig]

Most any carbon bearing material can produce the desired results.

My neice, an aspiring artist, fired this pretty piece of pottery packed predominantly in salt-marsh straw. So here we have a new twist on color heat treating.





.

[ed good]

edger: your temperatures regarding hardening and tempering are most interesting and specific. are they specific to colt's process only?

[ed good]

bruce: your comments regarding the differences in how frames and trigger plates are processed is interesting and new to me. perhaps all parts are hardened to the same spec, but then tempered to different specs, depending on the amount of elasticity desired?

i am no expert either, but do find the subject of factory shotgun receiver hardening and coloring to be fascinating.

[ed good]

another thought on the subject:

early shotgun receivers were machined from solid blocks or billets of rolled steel.

floor plates, trigger plates and lock plates were no doubt made from sheets of much thinner bar stock.

could it be that the billets of rolled steel were of a different alloy than the thinner bar stock? if so, that could account for the difference in how the case colors developed and appeared on the different parts of the gun?

[Bruce Day]

EDG, if you will look in The Parker Story, the key reference books for Parker enthusiasts, you will see on p. 427 photos of frame forgings and explanation of the hammer forging process.

A person can learn a lot about Parkers, restorations including correct charcoal color case hardening, and what is correct in Parkers, by study of TPS, which was written by experts on the Parker gun and the Charles Parker Company.

Bruce Day, no expert but I've read a lot, learned a lot from experts and been fortunate to have been around a lot of nice Parkers.

[Brian Dudley]

Dean,

I Don't want to drift off topic too much, but the picture you posted of your nieces vase is nice. I believe that this piece was Raku fired. This is a process where the clazed piece is fired to temp. and then removed at temp and then placed in a trash can with straw, hay, papers and other organtic materials. It creates a wonderful effect.

There is also an old Native american method called pit firing which is just the bare unglazed clay that is buried in a pit with a fire in other organic mateirals. And left to smolder for days. That process is very unpredictable, but can sometimes yield some great colors.

I was a Ceramic arts major in college. So it is a subject that I am familar with.

[edgarspencer]

No, Ed, Temperatures for any heat treatment are specific to the metallurgy and the end result you want to achieve, not the manufacturer.
Those temps I referenced are typical for most Ni-Cr-Mo alloys with Carbon in the .20% to .30% range

[Craig Larter]

I noticed on the PGCA 2012 raffle gun (10 ga hammer) the side plates retain much more CC than the action. Syracuse LC Smith's also age the same way, more color on the side plates versus the action. It must be the difference in steel and or the CC process. I have been told that the forging process modifies the grain of the metal resulting in some areas retaining cc better than others and some frames holding cc better than others. here is a Smith example of what I am talking about.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/DSC_0008-2.jpg

[Mike Shepherd]

Same with the Syracuse Lefevers. The sidelocks/sideplates hold the case color much much better than the the frame does.

Best,

Mike

[ed good]

mike: wonder why that is? ed

[Bill Murphy]

Mike, :):)

[ed good]

wonder if one did a rockwell hardness test of harden lock plates and floor plates vs hardened receivers, would one find that the thinner metal lock plates and floor plates would be harder than the receiver...the theory being that thinner bar stock parts would in fact be harder than the thicker roll stock receivers? if so, perhaps harder metal retains case colors better and longer and than does less hard metal...all else being the same, of coarse.

[Bill Murphy]

Ed, :):)

[Brad Bachelder]

It is imposible to quickly explain all of the variables that effect color case hardening. Contrary to conjecture and rumor the process is controlable and predictable.

two constants in the process are: type of metal, machineing reliefs.
The type of metal cast, forged, or rolled dteel, absorb carbon at different rates. Rolled steel, due to molecular density absorbs more carbon than cast steel. Sideplates and triggerplates are usually rolled steel accounting for deeper, longer lasting colors. Recievers cast or forged, absorb less carbon or color affecting durability.
Machineing translates to repeatable patterns in like parts. In the heat up phase thick areas remain cooler than thin areas. at quench thick areas cool slower that thin areas. Two prime examples of this in Parkers are the center band of color on triggerplates at the point of machineing for the cocking slide. The centers of the water table flats at the hammer spring pockets.
Parker forearm irons form a distinctive pattern at the "T", we refer to this pattern as "antlers". This is created by drawback or outside cooling at quench.
Pin holes, screw holes and edges drawback or turn straw or grey due to rapid cooling.
Color ranges, contrast, machineing patterns and patina, are all controlled with process variations in packing materials, tempature,surface preperation and exposure to oxygen. A careful educated study of original specimens is the most important factor in creating a process formula. Every manufacturer used the same basic process. The secret ingredents were not magical or chemical. The variations were in process crontrols and specific steel types.
We utilize over 20 different process formulas to yiels specific colors and patterns by brand and era.

Brad

[edgarspencer]

In a roundabout way, you're getting towards the answer. The thinner section parts receive a cycle time sufficient to reach the center of the mass, while heavier sectioned materials likely receiving the same duration 'soak', so not likely to reach the mass center. This is why thinner parts, whose shapes are more uniform, have a more uniformly colored surface, unlike receivers, whose colors vary directly in relation to the section thickness.
A part whose shape was achieved by forging, has a tighter grain structure than a part whose shape was formed by machining a cold rolled material, but, and a big but, the two parts have a substantially similar grain structure when the cool down from the 'soak' temperature begins, which is when the part absorbs any carbon-rich propertiess from the packing material.
You keep mentioning shotguns whose frames were made by machining a cold rolled bar, as opposed to a forging, and for the life of me, I can't think of any American made shotgun whose frame was not machined from a forged part. There were lots of well known forging companies, such as Billings & Spencer, who supplied near-net-shape parts to manufacturers who didn't have their own drop forging facility. The very logical reason is simply that machining time is much more expensive than forging to near net shape, then final machining less material.

[ed good]

brad: nice to hear from an expert.


"We utilize over 20 different process formulas to yield specific colors and patterns by brand and era"

a question. after quench do you ever temper back a receiver to increase elasticity, so as to avoid the possibility of cracking under the stress of firing? or is this step not necessary under your processes?

[ed good]

edgar: thanks for your input. i always learn from your posts.

[Brad Bachelder]

I have no intention of representing my work as a metalurgist. My goal is to simply replicate the structural and cosmetic entity that these guns represented. When I hear of accounts of temps at 1500 t0 1700 degrees, Iam concerned as to the damage that some people are doing to these precious guns. The utilization of blocking and fixturing techniques to achieve certian patterns is wrong, if you think that the original manufacturers did this, you are wrong. Case hardening just did that. It imparted hardness to soft steel, in a machineable state. The people that did this process were interested in a certian apperance as much as a structural benefit.
Each of them were craftsmen, not metalurgists. There individual goals were to establish a trademark look, different than the competion. They certianly accomplished that. You can Church up or tech up the process as much as you want, the truth remains that the colors and patterns are a result of the process application, the craftsmens work.

Brad

[Chuck Bishop]

[QUOTE=Brad Bachelder;64478] Two prime examples of this in Parkers are the center band of color on triggerplates at the point of machineing for the cocking slide. The centers of the water table flats at the hammer spring pockets.

Brad, thanks for answering the questions I had wondered about in the above quote. When I try and determine original Parker colors, those two things are what I try to analyze. Sometimes the center band of color may or may not be real noticeable but the water table flats usually are.

Perhaps you can also comment on an observation concerning recased colors is that usually the recased colors have too much straw around the edges of the frame where darker Parker colors go right to the edge. Parkers had very little straw colors in my opinion.

[Chuck Bishop]

Bruce,

What's the maufacture date on that B grade? My DH, made in 1903, has almost all of it's original case colors and from a distance you'd swear the receiver was blued until you got up close, then the dark blues and reds started to become apparent.

[edgarspencer]

Just to be clear, My comments were not intended to represent myself as a gunsmith, experienced or otherwise. A gunsmith is truly a craftsperson. Any temperature ranges I quoted are from experience from production methods used in the heat treatment of steels, in a cast state. Ultimately, the desired hardness and ductility was the determining factor is arriving at them. The colors were a byproduct of the surface hardening to prevent wear of the newly engraved surfaces. Machining and engraving is done while the part is in a softer, annealed state, and the final combination of the parts hardness, strength and ductility aren't achieved until all heating/ cooling cycles are done. The craftsman are those that take the basic information, and modify it to the desired end. The temperature ranges I quoted are, in fact those used by Colt, as explained to me by their personnel, when arriving at an alloy for their boxes. It's important to note that they were the first normalizing cycles the parts were exposed to, and not necessarily those a gun being restored would see. As the old adage says "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". Anyone who is able to replicate the colors imparted as the original manufacturer offered up, in my book, is the guy who gets my vote, and Brad Batcheldor's work, in my estimation, represents the best i have seen out there.
As many of us have seen in the last few weeks, The upcoming James Julia auction has a half dozen Colt Calvary models coming up, whose colors are as close to original, if they aren't actually original. That I believe they are actual Colt restorations, it makes no difference, as their work today is no different than it was 120 years ago. Long before they had a department called 'The Custom Shop', my dad had Colt restore a martial piece, and it looks today just like those shown in the Julia auction, no more, no less.

[Brad Bachelder]

Chuck,
Excellent observation, Parkers are overall very dark. The absense of straw, green and yellow are due to packing material, run temp and quench. Parkers colors are subtle and washed unlike the vivid multi-hue colors of late production Smiths.
In fully engraved Parkers with 90% original colors it very hard to see any color at all.
Brad

[Justin Julian]

No. Not at all. Each type of part is packed into the case hardening crucible separately. What I have learned is that the crucibles containing the various parts are not subjected to the same furnance time.

I must respectfully disagree.

Every pro I have ever talked to case colors their frames fully assembled, right down to the screws in the timed position. I have seen a couple examples of frames that were case colored while disassembled, and the results were poor and obvious. Picture a jig saw puzzle of colorful scenery with several pieces force fitted in the wrong places. The colors didn't flow or match across the seams, top lever and screw heads. Definitely not professional results.

Dr Gaddy and CSMC case colored fully assembled frames, and Dr Gaddy used stainless steel perforated shielding to concentrate colors and regulate patterns with great success. I have copied his methods with good repeatable results too. The factories didn't do that, according to Dr Gaddy, because they quenched many frames at once and that held the charcoal against the frames during the quench, which is criticial to achieve colors other than gray.

For guns like Parkers where vivid colors and jagged patterns are not desired, I have devised a different process where the steel is kept fully embedded in the charcoal mix during the entire quench. I have only tried it on one Parker, my own mismatched G grade shooter with decent, but not perfect, results. Photo below.

I suspect that colors first wear off the bottoms and edges of guns for the same reason why bluing wears off trigger guards, triggers and safety buttons first--because those areas all receive the most handling wear. Also, the application of more protective lacquer in some areas over others could have something to do with it too. Additionally, some prior owner of the gun might have deliberately polished the colors off certain areas of the gun while leaving them in others to achieve a desired "look".....who knows?

In any event, I do find case coloring to be a fascinating process, and look forward to learning as much as I can about it.

[Brian Dudley]

I have had color work done on a few guns by Malcom Clark (who used to work for CMSC) and I am sure that he also colors fully assembled. I am sure it has been done both ways. That is why I originally posed that question.

[Bruce Day]

Original Trojans. So do the experts believe that these demonstrate that the action frames and floorplates were case color hardened as a combined unit?


Bruce Day, Parker learner's permit applicant

[Justin Julian]

I'm not one of those experts to whom reference is made by any stretch, but photos 1 and 2 above seem to show color patterns flowing evenly over the seams between the frame and floor plate. Photo 3 gives one some pause, with that big splotch of blue on the frame but not extending onto the floor plate. But I suspect that to be the result of the comparative thickness of the steel of the frame as compared to the floor plate, as cooling rates in the quench impact color formation (according to Dr. Gaddy), and the thinner areas like the plate are going to cool faster than the thickest portion of the frame. The couple of guns that I've seen that were clearly case colored while disassembled were very obvious. Picture one of the guns shown above with a gray screw head surrounded by a splotch of solid blue on the frame. Or a vivid patch of blue on the trigger plate coming to an abrupt end at the seam and meeting a solid gray patch with no hint of blue on the frame. They looked as obvious as a blue car with a red replacement door that hadn't yet been repainted to match. Most folks would have just looked at those guns and declared that the case colors looked bad, not knowing what process led to the displeasing result. But anyone who had ever done any case coloring work would know instantly that the poor results were due to disassembled case coloring.

If I can be forgiven for enjoying LC Smiths too, below are two photos that are illustrative of the point. The first shows an old LC grade 2E that I rescued from the parts heap and fully restored. You can see how the color pattern clearly flows across the lock plate seam like a photo on a jig saw puzzle. That could never be accomplished if the gun were not case colored while fully assembled. The second photo shows the bottom of a gun I also colored (not sure which one it was), which has a gray splotch on the frame but not across the seam on the trigger plate. Of course, this gun too was colored while fully assembled, so that anomaly is attributable to some other factor than assembly vs disassembly. Dr Gaddy concluded in his articles that the way the water washes over the parts of the gun when the hot steel hits the quench and causes a small steam explosion is the single biggest factor in determining color pattern formation, and that aspect of the process is never going to be fully controllable. That is why every case coloring result is as unique as a snow flake or finger print, and in my view, what also makes case colors so fascinating to behold; preferably original, but also quality restorations as well. It should also be remembered that Remington changed its coloring process on Parkers in the late years. Whatever process one would use to get those cynide wash patterns is likely very different from the true bone charcoal case coloring process that I am talking about, and may account for some of the information floating around about parts being colored separately from the rest of the frame. I don't know anything about that process, to be sure.

[Brad Bachelder]

I would agree with the belief that recievers were cased in an assembled state.
I have repeatably tried Dr. Gadys process and decided not to incorporate it in our process. I am convinced that much of the shielding he used was to limit warpage. Exposure to free oxygen turns cased metal silver or grey. Controlling this exposure results in more uniform coverage and less grey.
Pre 1913 Smiths and pre Remington Parkers have the same overall dark look, indicating that the same quench process was used.
Many people do not realize that the colors and patterns evolved the years. To properly restore, one must study the exact process used at the time of manufacture. We have indentified three different process variations within Parkers history, not counting Remingtons change to the Cyanide process. Pre and post Smiths are distinctly different in colors and patterns. This is atributable to introducing charred leather to the process, containing a high level of cyanide.
I would agree that every piece of metal,cased, has a unique pattern, however uniformity, color range and contrast are totally controlable.
Annealing and tempering play a big role in the process.
Metal prep is critical to the end result. Parkers were not coated.To achieve the correct patina the metal prep is totally different than those parts that are to be coated.

Brad

[Dean Romig]

Bruce, I see no evidence, in the original Trojan examples you show, that the color case-hardening process was done with the parts assembled.

[Brad Bachelder]

A quick way to determine how parts were run is to drop the triggerplate from a highly colored reciever. The forward portion of the plate is mostly protected from charcoal when cased assembled. The rear of the plate is exposed and open.You will notice a difference In the protected area. If the reciever and triggerplate were run seperately the inside would totally match the outside.

Brad

[ed good]

brad: your depth of knowledge on this subject is amazing!

however, i do wish you would answer my question directly re tempering after quench. do you ever do it and if so when? and if you never do it, then why not?

[Brad Bachelder]

Ed
Sorry I did not answer your question. Tempering and annealing are very important parts of our process. Every reciever is handled differently, the determining factor is the specific hardness before and after processing.

Brad

[Bruce Day]

EDG is well known as one of the most prolific advocates and users of the torch and oil process for applying colors to Parker frames.

[ed good]

bruce: not sure what your post has to do with this topic...
however, you are mistaken. i do no gun work of any kind.
dont have the skill nor the patience.

speaking of patience. you started a wonderful thread here. do not trash it by going off on some tangent which leads to no where.

[ed good]

brad: thank you so much for your response re tempering.

i have been asking that question of individuals who claim to do high heat bone charcoal case coloring, for many years. you are the first one to correctly answer that question. most others seem not to comprehend what i am asking.

as a result of this thread and your fine reputation among some of our mutual customers, i have come to the conclusion that it is now cost effective and safe to recolor a high value shotgun receiver via your processes. thank you so much for your willingness to share your knowledge and expertise...the sign of a true professional.

ed lander, my go to gunsmith, is in the process of assembling a 28 ga ithaca nid repro, from a kit of parts left over from the sadly, now defunct ithaca classic doubles operation. should this effort be successful, the next step in the process, after engraving, will be heat treating and case coloring as needed. according to old ed, none of the parts seem to have been heat treated. would you be interested in taking on this phase of the project?

[Justin Julian]

I should think that business propositions are better conducted by PMs.

[Dave Suponski]

I agree....

[calvin humburg]

The first gun pictured is a knock out Bruce. Suppose I could take her out on a date?

[ed good]

as to these nid kits, i have three friends and customers who are each sitting on one of these kits, hoping to find a way to turn them into usable guns. the first stumbling block has been finding a gunsmith with the willingness to accomplish the fit and finish phase, which as it turns out, includes making parts not included in the kit. so far, old ed is the only one i have found who is willing to attempt the assembly of one of these guns. next is the engraving step. no problem there. lots of engravers to choose from. next is heat treating and case coloring. before this thread, there was only one other source that i would trust with this work. now there are two. next is final finish. no problem. lots of choices...

so, hopefully you will see that this not just a business proposition, but instead it is more like a mission or a quest or perhaps an obsession? generally, i would consider a business proposition as spending money to make money...in this situation, it is doubtful that any money could be made here, due to the anticapated costs involved. but, then if we four wind up with a finely finished custom gun, instead of a pile of parts, perhaps that would be a good thing?

[Dennis V. Nix]

My heart is pounding with excitement. Please, Ed, don't make us all wait for Sunday to hear the final answer. This thread started off with a great purpose and excellent photography. It has diminished into, "Who Cares" and poor photography. IMHO could we please give it a rest?

Dennis

[ed good]

dennis: the pictures of the fired pots are kinda nice, dont you agree?

[Dennis V. Nix]

Ed, are you asking me if I like the photo quality or do I like the pots. I like the pots but wish the photo was a little more of a close up to see details. As for the photo quality itself it is a decent snapshot but if I were looking to buy a pot (I am not) I would want more detail. If you are REALLY asking about the photos of the three case colored guns I think to really judge which is which the photos should have been a side view of each receiver rather than parts that really can't be looked at closely due to the distance from the lens and not all photos depicting the same part of the gun. I hope that makes sense.

[ed good]

dennis: makes sense...what also makes sense is that you may have this thread mixed up with another one?

[Dennis V. Nix]

Ed, you are correct. I was reading two threads, Parker Case Color Quiz from you and Real Deal Case Colors from Bruce Day. I had seen the photos of the pots from your niece and somehow in my pea brain got it mixed up with your quiz on case colors. Sorry! I will try to be more careful next time.

[Bruce Day]

You know, when I started this thread I passed on something I had learned with some photos and thought it might generate some advancement and maybe even thoughtful discussion. It has to some degree but I'm concerned that many of these threads are going to be diverted and degraded, as this one has.
I have differences of opinion sometimes with a couple people here but that doesn't mean that I don't respect them as people or respect their appreciation of the Parker gun and its preservation for the future.
But I don't understand what the hell is happening now. I look sometimes at other collecting forums and what I see is not what I want to be a part of. There was once a Lefever forum, well I don't even see that anymore and I understand a couple guys ruined it.
Maybe this is just venting, but we have had the premier, most civilized, and most thoughtful forum, something that people want to be a part of, and I'd not like to lose that.
If I'm off base, let me know.

[Jim DiSpagno]

No Bruce, you are not off base at all. The fact that some contentious replies have been made followed by snide remarks and insinuations makes it uncomfortable to say the least. If I had wanted to get into a pissing match, then I have family for that. This is supposed to be educational, informative and fun. Please let us keep it that way. If someone is so inclined to vent hostility or indignation towards a comment of statement of fact or opinion, they should do it in private and not to raid a thread. My father once told me "never argue with a fool in public, as a stranger could not tell the difference between you. Thanks.
Jim DiSpagno

[Mike Shepherd]

My opinion: ed is here to promote his gun business and also has hopes that he will become recognized as a Parker guru. And when he appears to be failing to achieve those two goals he reverts to trolling. Just like a twelve year old boy who runs a stick down the neighbor's fence to make their dog's bark. I have seen this pattern over and over on the Doublegun. He not so subtly trolls guns-for-sale through the main forums and self - promotes. He scoffs at the BBS members, community and their values and traditions and sees us as sheep to sheared and slaughtered. That is the end of my opinion.

ed at this point you ususally give me a warning about getting banned. Please just report my post to the moderator and skip that tedious threat.


Best,


Mike

[Brian Dudley]

You know, when I started this thread I passed on something I had learned with some photos and thought it might generate some advancement and maybe even thoughtful discussion.

I agree and appreciate the original intention of this and other threads of similar topics. However, one must always be careful on these boards with the topic of CCH. They always end up going in the same direction if given enough time.

[Bill Murphy]

Bruce, since the third picture of Trojans is of a Remington gun, are we to understand that gun to be colored by the bone and charcoal case hardening method or by a different method?

[Bruce Day]

Bill, those are CH's guns and he said see what they say about those. The first two are earlier and most certainly charcoal case coloring. The third may be a transition gun, I think I recall that it is, but looks a bit more to me like cyanide than charcoal. All cyanide guns don't have to be garishly tiger striped and I think it is an issue of technique. I've seen some that are at least to me very difficult to tell cyanide from charcoal, particularly after some wear and oxidation.

What do you think?

[Dennis V. Nix]

Bruce, I think your thread was great and I think most of us feel that way. Please allow me to point out something that I have personally been guilty of and I am not referring to anyone but myself in this point. A problem with emails and threads such as this one is we do not have the opportunity to speak in person to whom we are sending or receiving the thread. Therefore we tend to let our personal issues sometimes cloud what we think the other person is saying. As a new member to the PGCA I have noticed that many members seem not to like a couple of other members. From reading some threads it is obvious why. Having said that I have to also say I have never met anyone on this site in person so I can't honestly say what type of people they would be. Most are probably wonderful people who may have a difference of opinion from mine. Some are apparently obnoxious to the point of irritating a number of people who read their posts. Some are self serving. Most of us though are in this because they genuinely love Parker Brothers shotguns and have the same goals as you do. Even before I bought my one (so far) Parker GH I read the posts and loved them. I loved the photos of really high quality guns and I loved the (for lack of a better word) professionalism of the members. This is a great organization that is kept running smoothly by men and women such as yourself. I guess what I am saying is there are members in every organization who just don't fit in or are self serving. Believe me when I say that almost always the other members know exactly who they are and deal with them accordingly. This is a great organization with wonderful members. It is only getting better.

[ed good]

dennis: no problem here and no apology necessary...

as to the quality of the three photos in the case color quiz thread, they are quote old and may have been taken on my original digital camera that i bought around 2000 or even before. so, they are not of the quality produced by the newer cameras. i upgraded cameras in 2006 and am due for another upgrade. and if you care to, please do take your best guess re the origin of the case colors on the three guns pictured in the case color quiz thread. regards, ed

[Brian Dudley]

Dennis,

I hope that the last few days bantering have not been some of your first experiences on the Forum. This is a great place with great people. I say one of the best places in fact. Please do stick around. Maybe you will get the chance to meet some of us in person in the future. I think that any of us would like that.

[ed good]

mike: i am not going to respond to your personal attack out of respect for bruce and his desire to get this thread back on the original topic that he started.

[Dean Romig]

xxx edited for clarity.

[Dean Romig]

dennis: no problem here and no apology necessary...

as to the quality of the three photos in the case color quiz thread, they are quote old and may have been taken on my original digital camera that i bought around 2000 or even before. so, they are not of the quality produced by the newer cameras. i upgraded cameras in 2006 and am due for another upgrade. and if you care to, please do take your best guess re the origin of the case colors on the three guns pictured in the case color quiz thread. regards, ed

Sorry Ed, now you're confused as to which thread you're responding to.... NOT the three pictures you posted on that other thread.

[ed good]

shot: sorry, no response here...lets get it back on topic as bruce suggested.

[Bill Murphy]

Dennis is absolutely correct. There are people here who are disruptive, self serving, and are not liked by other members. I don't understand why they do what they do, but I suspect mental illness or alcohol, not that there is anything wrong with either. We have had problems before and posters have been banned. Ed Muderlak is an example. I always knew that Ed Muderlak had the best intentions for our organization, he just didn't suffer fools well. I have had my bad days with Ed Muderlak, but it had nothing to do with either of us being self serving fools. Maybe a little mental illness, but no alcohol. Muderlak had good reason to be crotchety. He had been mistreated by PGCA leaders in the past. Ed Good is different. He has had no contact with PGCA or its leaders, so has not been mistreated in any way. He admits by his posts that he is out to hurt us, and as been openly critical of PGCA members and the PGCA on other forums. He has been banned before on this forum, and probably deserves to be banned again because of his disruptive behavior. He evades suggestions that he has advertised really abused (by gunsmiths) Parkers on his internet sale sites. He has done just that and should admit it. If he chooses to sell better guns now and in the future, we will figure that out. I don't think we have to treat Ed Good gently. He is not a nice guy. Well, he may be a nice guy with a problem. We should be willing to criticize his behavior like some seem to be unwilling to do. He is here to hurt us and disrupt our wonderful forum. Don't cooperate with him, don't reply to his posts, no matter how interesting he appears to make them. Congratulations to our moderators and webmaster for handling these situations so well.

[ed good]

murphy: wow! now that is clearly unfair, incorrect and down right untrue.

your post could even qualify as "Vitriolic" ?

please do be specific:

how have i admitted by my posts to be out to hurt anyone?

please do provide examples of where i have been critical of pgca members and the pgca on other forums?

you are mistaken. i have never been banned on this forum.

as for my advertising abused parkers. that is a matter of opinion. the fact that most parker guns i sell are in my inventory for less than 60 days, indicates their acceptance by internet buyers.

you are again mistaken. i am here to hurt no one. i am here to learn, contribute and to have some fun. nothing more and nothing less.

[ed good]

bruce: i am trying to get these guys back on topic... but as you can see some just do not want to go back. i do regret hi jacking your thread. but, when brad showed up here my enthusiasm to pick his brain just got the better of me. for that i do apologize.

[Bruce Day]

Ed stop acting like Wally running to Mrs Cleaver and complaining about the other boys when they are just reacting to your shenanigans. Just take a time out and go somewhere and dream of Adrienne Barbeau and handcuffs until you are able to play nice and come back on.

[ed good]

bruce: adrienne barbeau...yeah that frenchie gal in the 80's horror flicks. now i remember...she was ok, but always seemed to me like she needed a bath and a shave.

now brigitte bardot...thats more to my taste. fragile, naughty and approachable. sorta reminds me of the first 20 ga parker i torched...oops, sorry, was not supposed to mention that.

i will take your suggestion though...i will be away for a while. i have work to do. consignments are building up and i gotta take pitchers, up load erm and write descriptions. very time consuming, but somebody's gotta do it. among this latest lot are two nice dh grade guns. watch for them, you know where...

[Justin Julian]

This was a great thread. I really enjoyed the wonderful photos of all the beautiful guns and Brad's technical information on the case coloring processes he uses. But it seems that it is now all about the people and no longer about the case colors or the Parkers. I can't help but wonder whether this thread has served its intended purpose and should now be mercifully shut down.

[ed good]

ruff: might not be a bad idea? but should that not be bruce's call?

[ed good]

and another thing murphy: for you to bring up ed muderlak, or anyone else who is deceased and who is not here to defend himself from the likes of you is low class, to say the least...and if this is attacking a pgca member, such as yourself, then so be it...i aint got time for dis no mo...gotta go to work.

[Bruce Day]

I would if I could but that is up to John "Atilla" Dunkle.

[Steve Huffman]

:bigbye:

[Justin Julian]

On GunBroker, the seller of an item has a feature available to "block" troublesome bidders from posting a bid on his auction. The thought occurs to me that it would be very nice for the originator of a thread to have a similar feature available here to "block" certain members from posting so they can't hijack and/or ruin the thread. I would sure hate to put a lot of time and effort into taking photos and creating an interesting and valuable thread only to have one guy come along and predictably ruin it with endless banter. At a very minimum, the guy who originated the thread should have the option of terminating it when it has gone completely off the rails. Just a thought.

[Bill Murphy]

I don't know if this is the end, but I'm sure that the moderators will be interested in the recent posts. Thank you for recent posts.

[ed good]

ruff: nay, freedom of speech and all dat.

[Daryl Corona]

Bruce,
Adrienne Barbeau and handcuffs? I'm still laughing. Thanks. Probably one of your best posts (and you've had many good ones).

[Bill Murphy]

I'm sure the moderators are waiting for me to clarify that I am, in no way, disparaging Ed Muderlak. I am, in contrast, making some negative comments about Ed Good. Ed Muderlak was a man of letters and good intent. Ed Good seems to be no such thing.

[John Dunkle]

... have had problems before and posters have been banned. Ed Muderlak is an example. I always knew ...
To be clear and factual. Mr. Murdelak was not banned from this new forum when it was started years ago. On the previous forum, I wasn't an Admin, so I never carried over any banned users from previous administrators. To be clear as well, only one individual has been banned from this forum permanently. While a few have been given a "time out", it was done while they were informed of why.

If we are going to discuss the facts, I would suggest they be correct.

My thanks for that,

John

[Mike Shepherd]

ruff: might not be a bad idea? but should that not be bruce's call?

It is the moderator's call.

Only in Rascal Heaven does the original poster control the thread.

Best,

Mike

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks to John for defining the time outs.

[Steve Huffman]

I have always said if you want a argument just talk Politics, Religion or Guns ! Works every time.