Ithica classic doubles 4E 20ga

[Kenny Graft]

Found a nice lightly used one, Dt-PG-BT 3800.00 Would this be a good price and are these guns as good and dependible as the repro parkers?

[Bob Jurewicz]

Ken,
Great price and great gun!! Just be sure its not a Beschi. If your not interested in its purchase I would be.
Bob Jurewicz

[Kenny Graft]

Hi BOB How would I know...are the ICD guns marked as sutch?

[Bob Jurewicz]

Ken,
Ithaca Classic Doubles and Victor New Yorlk should appear in a circle ring on the botton of the receiver. Beschi guns have this area xxed out. Beschi guns are only found in the early serial number range of 470---. Guns with the 471--- numbers were not involved. The short story is that ICD rejected parts were used by Beschi to build counterfit guns. I've looked at many Beschis and their workmanship is far inferior to ICD and they have high frequency of malfunction. If close inspection shows a "good" Beschi, and there are some, value is about $2500.
Bob Jurewicz

[Kenny Graft]

Thanks Bob...the SN is 470015 has the little bird in the cercle. The ring looks to be XXX out and does not have any wording on it at all.....I have it on hold at WLM, I will inform them of the new info and pass on it...BIG thanks , This was very informative..a good drill to learn from...and I did not loose any cash!!!! I will keep a eye out for one thats real....

[Bill Murphy]

Bob, at some time in the past, I printed a post telling exactly how to identify good and bad ICD guns. I haven't reread it for a while. Are there any 470 guns that are great guns? Are all 471 guns acceptable? I sold ICDs from the beginning to the end, but the serial number mystery is greek to me.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Bill,
I have 2 ICD's in the 470--- range and 1 in the 471---. The engraving in the real 470 ICD's is much better, in my opinion, than the 471 era. Fit and finish is comparable. Componet quality is best with the 471s.
The real ICDs are all great guns and very undervalued.
Bob Jurewicz
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Bobguns/P1260082.jpg

[Bob Jurewicz]

Also just remembered, a friend and fellow ICD fan Tom M, has 2 threads on the shootingsportsman.com site showcasing his 16 and 28 ICDs.
Bob Jurewicz

[Bob Jurewicz]

http://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/showthread.php?2007-ICD-28-gauge
http://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/showthread.php?2000-ICD-16-gauge

[Josh Loewensteiner]

The ICD guns in the 471 serial range are great guns. I have owned several and they have all performed flawlessly. My main ICD is a 4E 16ga and 20ga two barrel/two forearm set with my initials in gold on the trigger guard. I picked out the wood when Steven was making them. I love the gun and have shot it literally thousands of times without any concerns.

In my opinion, these guns are the best bargain for a hand made/hand engraved/hand checkered American made gun you can buy on the market today.

[charlie cleveland]

the 4 e s are beautiful guns...ive looked at several i dont own one butwho knows... charlie

[Chuck Heald]

I can add some info about the Beschi "parts" guns.

I intentionally bought a .410 Beschi gun. Although I paid more than what I would have for a 20ga Beschi, it was still worth it to me, since decent .410 guns bring such a premium.

Some other obvious ways to tell a Beschi 4E from a ICD 4E:
The wood quality of a Beschi will most likely be basic straight grain
The buttplate may be a 3/8" thick wood plate.
The checkering may be simple point patterns on the grip and forend instead of the proper fleur de le checkering for a 4E
The barrels may be marked "Armi Beschi, Gardone V.T., Italy"

Add those to the give-aways such as the stippled or X'd out Ithaca Classic Doubles marking in the ring on the bottom of the frame and the 470xxx information.

As another reference point, my Beschi is 47014x

So, onto some problems with the Beschi I bought.

1) The first thing I noticed was the chambers were really tight with common factory ammo from various makers. There was significant resistance to inserting 3" shells, even though it measured 3" chambers. Each shell had to be pressed in all the way up against the ejectors.
2) the tight chambers prevented ejection of the empties
3) the toplever was unusually hard to push over. The spring pressure was very high.
4) the toplever would stick after firing and extreme pressure was needed to push the lever over to open the gun
5) the center of the point of impact of the right barrel was about 8" left at 30 yrds
6) the choke tapers were very rough.

Here's what I did.
1) recut the chambers with a brand new chamber reamer. A few minutes of work if you have the tools
2) same as above
3) I disassembled the gun and clipped the obviously too powerful coil spring on the toplever
4) I polished the hole and guide for the toplever spring.
5) I worked metal off of one side of the choke with polishing sticks I made from wood wrapped with wet or dry paper of various grits
6) I polished the chokes and tapers with a tool I made.

Although I've addressed all the issues above fairly quickly, I wouldn't recommend one of these guns for someone that would have to pay for gunsmithing to fix these problems. I doubt I have more than 6-8 hrs of work in this gun.

Again, I wouldn't have gone with a Beschi parts gun if I wanted a 20ga gun, but nice handling .410s in this price range are limited, I like the handling and weight (6lbs), and certainly a real .410 ICD would be very pricey. I'm satisfied with my gun for the money. But buyer beware.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Chuck,
Thank you for your analysis of "Beischi". I have seen many of these same issues without the unfortunate ownership issue.
Bob Jurewicz