DHE 12 ga. ?

[Steve Galehouse]

Hello everyone-

I inherited a DHE 12 ga. frame size 1 1/2, serial # 127506. I was hoping someone could give me input as to its condition and value. I've attached some photos.

Thanks, Steve
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[Dean Romig]

Hi Steve! Welcome to the PGCA forum!

That's a very nice DHE and if very nice condition.

It's difficult to determine if it is in original condition but from here it looks like an extremely fine refinish - judging by the condition of the barrel blue vs. the nearly gone case colors.

A DHE in that condition and configuration should be in the $5K range in today's market.

You should buy a $100 PGCA Research Letter for that wonderful Parker or join the PGCA for $40 and buy the research letter for the Member's price of $40... a total savings of $20.

[Justin Julian]

That's a fine looking gun. In the 3rd photo down from the top, it looks like the top sighting rib has been cut and rejoined about an inch from the breach....is that the case? If so, a non-original alteration of that nature could knock the value down significantly.

[Steve Huffman]

Justin, Look close at your Parkers rib it will have that also.
Book has it having 28 " barrels . Nice gun Steve.

[Pete Lester]

Is there a silver oval shield in the stock? I think I can see it but not sure with the angle of the picture and grain of wood.

[Dean Romig]

All Parkers with the doll's head have that joint. The doll's head section is attached with a screw as well as with solder.

[Steve Huffman]

Steve, I looked up your serial number again and it shows that your gun does not have ejectors book has been wrong before, so you might double check. The E on DHE stands for ejectors.

[Steve Galehouse]

Thanks for the welcome and all the replies---I will be joining the PGCA.

I've attached a few more photos; I think it is an "E", unless extractor and ejector mean something separate. Also the is an oval metal shield along the bottom of the stock. Thanks again for all your input.

Steve
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[Pete Lester]

It's a DH rather than a DHE. Ejectors will kick the empties out of the gun and throw them over your shoulder. Extractors pull the empties out so you can remove them with your fingers. A very nice gun, but the lack of ejectors lowers the anticipated value significantly over an ejector equipped gun all things being equal.

I wish I inherited or would inherit such a nice gun! Congrats.

[Steve Huffman]

Barrels look redone as Dean has said the extractor is blued as for the face of breach & dolls head also.Still a nice gun.

[Justin Julian]

Winplumber, you're right. I grabbed a G grade that wasn't buried in the safe with the rest of the Parkers and stared at the top rib under a bright light. The line on the edges of the sighting rib is so faint that I could barely see it, but it is there. I could not see it at all under the rib matting. I'd never noticed it before on any of my Parkers or any of the photographed Parkers that I've stared at over the years. The seam on this gun's rib stands out in stark contrast and caught my eye immediately. Perhaps its a result of the rebluing? But I've seen plenty of reblued Parkers that didn't show the seam so clearly, so...
Since the heir asked, what's the consensus on the fair market value of this 12 gauge D grade with reblued barrels and extractors....maybe in that $2,500-$3,000 range in today's economy?

[Pete Lester]

Jent the third picture down on the original post shows the rib inscription, Titanic Steel.

[Steve Huffman]

Book has it right Ti3 I dont think anyone with us can answer why / how the barrels were redone

[Dean Romig]

Steve, has a vent hole been drilled in the bottom rib just forward of the forend lug?

[Steve Galehouse]

Chilled-

No no vent hole that is obvious. The bottom rib looks continuous.

Steve

[Dean Romig]

That's a good thing in my opinion.

[Steve Huffman]

Chilled - ?

[Steve Galehouse]

Chilled-

What does lack of a vent hole indicate?

Steve

[Dean Romig]

It usually indicates that a great deal of care was taken not to alter the gun from its original state. Parker Bros. did not drill a vent hole when they "rebrowned" a set of barrels and I think it detracts from an otherwise nice Parker.

[Justin Julian]

Everything I've read has uniformly stated that when rust bluing a set of barrels, a vent hole in the bottom rib is essential because during the repetitive boiling process, the air trapped between the top and bottom ribs expands when heated to 212 degrees and the resulting pressure can pop a rib loose. But I've also noted that original condition Parkers don't have a vent hole like most other brands of vintage doubles, and wondered how Parker managed to rust blue its barrels, which presumably had to be done after both the top and bottom ribs were soldered in place.

Is it simply not true that a vent hole in the bottom rib is necessary for rebluing Parker barrels? Has anyone here ever tried to rust blue a set of Parker barrels without a vent hole and had the rib pop loose during the boiling process?

[Pat Dugan]

The boiling process is hot bluing not rust bluing. Rust bluing is a completely different process and others will give a lot better description but it is a slow rusting process in a box.


PDD

[George Stanton]

Those barrels need to be boiled or subjected to hot steam to change the red oxide to a black oxide before "carding".

[Steve Huffman]

So Parker barrels were rust blued and that is why there is no vent hole ?

[Justin Julian]

PDD-
Hot bluing refers to the more modern process of immersing parts in liquified salts at temps over 300 degrees. Rust bluing involves coating barrels with multiple thin layers of red rust and boiling them between carding sessions. Rust bluing is the traditional method used for bluing soft soldered doubles that can not withstand the temps of the hot bluing process, as boiling water is only 212 degress F. But everything I've read indicates that venting of the air trapped between the top and bottom ribs is necessary to keep the pressure from popping a rib loose during the boilings. But Parker apparently didn't do that at the factory, as original condition guns don't have any vent holes that I have been able to locate. Perhaps the sighting bead hole on Parkers doubled as their pressure vent during the bluing process? I don't know. Hopefully someone else will and share that knowledge.

[Bruce Day]

Justin, although I am not a gunsmith and have never personally blued barrels , I have a friend who is, and I have watched his process with Parker and other fine double barrels many times. The problem is not popping off ribs due to air expansion when boiling, the problem is seepage under the rib which would stay there and rust unless drained. For Meriden Parkers, there is no need to drill an extra hole after the barrels are done to drain them, the sight bead is removed during re-browning and and any seepage is drained through that hole. For Illion Parkers, they were made with a drain hole adjacent the barrel lump, an extra drain hole if you will, and that suffices. Some gunsmiths will drill a hole there in Meriden barrels and then plug it with a small lead shot pellet, then cold blue over it. A good gunsmith who regularly refinishes Parker barrels is Dale Edmunds at 816 444 2040, and conversation with him may be helpful.
Sincerely, Bruce Day ( Parker non expert)

[Justin Julian]

Bruce,
Thanks for the great info. It sounds like Parker sighting bead holes tap into the "void" between the ribs. With most other brands of doubles, the bead hole is a dead end into the solder. The Parker bead hole alone would probably suffice to allow the quickly expanding gas to vent out when the barrels are dropped into boiling water. I don't have much Parker bluing experience, but I can tell you from rust bluing other brands that the gases expand violently and really bubble out that vent hole with force when the barrels are dropped into boiling water. I would be hesitant to boil any set of soft soldered barrels, no matter how well made, without a vent hole of some sorts to release the pressure on the ribs.

Also, it is generally not considered enough to only drain the water out of the void between the barrels because moisture and rusting solution salts can be left behind to cause problems. Most pros advise that the void be flushed out with a special water displacing oil, such as that sold by Brownell's, which isn't cheap. Its thinner than water and can easily be injected into the smallest hole with a large hypo needle. After being sloshed around thoroughly in the void, it is then poured out through the vent hole.

Speaking of vent holes in ribs, the older higher grade LC Smiths had the typical vent hole behind the forearm lug, but they threaded it and filled the hole with a small flush fitting plug screw, which looks quite nice.

The practice of drilling a vent hole in the bottom rib of a Parker for rebluing is so common that I have read several articles over the years advising that originality of bluing on Parkers can be easily verified by simplying making sure that there is no vent hole. That is obviously not true, as we can see with this subject D grade. But it does seem to indicate that most gunsmiths mistakenly think the new vent hole is essential.

Perhaps one of the pros like Brad B would be willing to post a thread and explain to us the ins and outs of rebluing Parker barrels without drilling additional holes. I'm sure that many of us would find it fascinating even if we have no intention of ever rust bluing a set of barrels ourselves.

[Dean Romig]

Drilling a vent hole in the bottom rib is NOT necessary when re-rust bluing a set of Parker Bros barrels. Euss Bickel did a wonderful job on my 1898 Titanic barrels and he did not drill a vent hole. Pictures provided upon request.

[Justin Julian]

Thanks Chilled.

Of course, we'd all like to see those pics posted!

The sighting pin hole thing got me curious, so I removed the bead from a set of beat up original length (shooter grade) GH barrels that I intend to reblack some day. I attempted to inject some acetone down the sighting pin hole to see if it accessed the void between the barrels. It clearly does not. The void between the barrels of pre-Remington Parkers appears to be sealed. Which would seem to indicate that Parker Brothers rust blued their barrels without any venting. They apparently had more faith in the workmanship of their soldering than most (if not every) other American gun maker of the period.

Of course I'm just speculating here, but it would seem logical to conclude that if the solder is still air tight and strong, no bubbling will be observed when the barrels are submerged in near boiling water. If the soldering has lost its air tight seal over the decades, that would be easily detected by escaping air bubbles, and a vent hole would then be necessary in order to drain out the water at the end of the bluing process and flush it with water displacing oil. So perhaps the answer is simply that if you are fortunate enough to have a Parker with soldered seams that are still air tight, you won't need to have a vent/drainage hole drilled.