Damascus barrel quality

[Ray Masciarella]

I would like to know a little about the quality of Damascus barrels.

Parker advertised that BH with "extra fine" and a AH with "finest" Damascus. Every BH or AH I have looked at all have 6 blade Damascus so what was the difference between "extra fine" and "finest"? Was it the number of leaves? They all look the same to me. The quality of the work appears to be the same. Was it marketing or was there some difference I'm overlooking?

When a CH was made with Damascus, what grade was used 4 or 6 blade? My D4 has 6 blade. Is that usual?

One thing I notice between the 6 blade D4 and at least one of my D6's is that the scrolls are smaller/finer on the D6. The difference is slight and the D4 barrels scrolls are about the same as other D6's i have. Is that the difference between "extra fine" and "finest" supposed to be the size of the scrolls?

Thx, Ray

[Drew Hause]

This might help Ray
https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_22ddqshmdq

[Dean Romig]

We have noted that on Grades 2, 3 and 4 Damascus barrel flats there is a "D" stamped under the right barrel toward the front of the flats which we always believed to indicate Damascus. However, we also note that on Grades 5 and 6 there is a "DD" stamped in the same area. Could this "DD" stamp indicate "extra fine" or "finest"? Has anyone ever seen barrel flats stamped with a triple D ("DDD")?... is there such a marking?

Dave Suponski has a BH with "DD" stamped on the flats and Oscar Gaddy told Dave that his barrels were the finest he'd ever seen.

[Ray Masciarella]

There is a top action D3 in TPS that has "DD" on flats. I can't tell from the photo if it's 6 blade but it looks finer then another D3 barrel on same page.

I'm thinking Parker's claim that the A grade barrel is finer then a B grade was just marketing hype because I can't see any difference. If both AH and BH both have "DD" barrels there can't be much difference?

[John Dallas]

The Grade 6 I posted in "Nice One" a few days ago has only a single D.

[Dean Romig]

Hmmm...

John, can you post a close-up of those barrels?

[Mark Ouellette]

Dean,

This is Big D's friend's AH 10:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=308&pictureid=3382

[Ray Masciarella]

The AH 10 looks like it has 4 blades? If I'm seeing it correctly, I thought, at least as a general rule, AH and BH had 6 blade. Wonder if new barrels were ordered. I have a AH made in early 1890s that was sent back to Parker in late 1890s to be fit with an extra set of barrels and the order specified 4 blade to be used. I guess it was a little cheaper and made no difference to buyer.

[Jay Gardner]

I have a 16 ga D with to the eye appears to identical to the damascus in that A10. John, when I get back I to town let's put the A next to my D and compare the two.

[Drew Hause]

Ray: there are examples here of Grade 6 barrels with 4 Iron 'Oxford', 4 Iron 'Turkish Star', and this 10g with 4 Iron 'Turkish' typical of Parker D4

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_268gzhjpd4d

I am of the opinion that nothing was more difficult to produce that 6 Iron 'Turkish' with small symmetric scrolls, nor nothing as aesthetically pleasing.
'Rose pattern' Bernard 2 is a bit garish in comparison :rolleyes: but might better fit Bro. Day's personality :)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19025099/361027812.jpg

And yes, C & D grades also used D4. Greener was of the opinion that 6 blade crolle was "over-twisted" and British 'Best' of that era were 3 or 4 Iron.

[Larry Frey]

I'm certainly no expert on Damascus but I don't think the D vs DD was grade specific. The grade seven Damascus barrels below show the D stamp which you would assume would have been DD if that were reserved for the higher grade guns.

[John Dallas]

Looked at the A 10 again. Actual marks arew "D", "4", and a "C" off to the right of the D and 4

[Ray Masciarella]

It looks like to me that the grade 7 with "D" is a 6 blade. If i'm right, then here is a "fine" barrel with One "D".

Drew directs us to web site that appears to have another AH with 4 blade. It doesn't show the flats to confirm grade 6 but the engraving sure looks like grade 6.

I started out wanting to know the differnce between AH "finest" and BH "extra fine" and now I'm learning all sorts of new things. If some AH's used 4 blade, and it seems that may be the case, I wonder why? I guess there could be various reasons, eg no 6 blade in stock. Would a customer complain when he rec'd his new grade 6 with 4 blade barrels? Maybe if he was very fussy and new the difference. I assume a person ordering a 6 grade would have at the time no the difference since Parker and others adverised different qualities of damascus barrels.

All very interesting

[Ray Masciarella]

I looked closer at the barrels on the site Drew directed us to and find that there are a couple of 6 blade barrels marked with just one "D".

The AH 10 shown here also appears on that site, at least it looks like the same gun.

[Dave Suponski]

Ray, There are a couple of pictures of my BH on Dr.Drews site. I can take a couple more if need be. These are the barrels the late Dr. Gaddy commented on.

[Ray Masciarella]

Dave, did he point put what he thought distinquished those barrels from all others? (forgive me if I'm overlooking it)

[Dave Suponski]

Ray, In the letter that he sent me when he sent the barrels back Oscar just stated"These barrels are the finest pattern I have ever seen on a Parker shotgun" I took what Dr.Gaddy said at face value. I probably should have quizzed him on exactly what he meant by that but alas I didn't. He might have seen something that I didn't.I am sure that there are other examples of the same finest damascus out there and the internet makes "outting" these guns much easier. These barrels were blued when I bought the gun and I was amazed at what beauty came out once he was done working his magic. To my mind his knowledge and expertice is sorely missed. We had many wonderful conversations about these guns over the years.

[Bruce Day]

Besides the number of blades ( eg 4 blade damascus), the thickness of the individual blades varied. Thus, you can find a 4 blade with fine or coarse pattern.

The best guns to see a lot of damascus variations are the G grades. Some have fine damascus like A's, some are coarse. If a person likes to see patterns , the better selection is in the lower grades. Some A grades with 6 blade and and each blade fine thickness, are so fine that the pattern appears uniform until you get close such that you see almost an overall gray.

As for D or DD marking on the barrel flats, I've not been able to see any difference in the damascus.

I like all the damascus variations. Some of the most fascinating are the American Bunting variations in the hammer Parkers, and of course chain damascus, which has not been found in Parkers.

[Drew Hause]

Dave's barrels are a masterpiece of barrel maker's art, as are every other Parker D6 that I've seen

From the July 24, 1886 Scientific American regarding Parker guns:
The "Parker" double-barreled shotgun has, indeed, become so well known, that not to be acquainted with its excellences is to argue that one ha but little familiarity with firearms especially designed for sporting purposes.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20091342/383972355.jpg

[Ray Masciarella]

When I started this thread, I thought one of the suggestions as to the difference between "extra fine" and "finest" would be the size of the scrolls and the number of their leaves. My assumption was that all AH and BH barrels were 6 blade, although now doesn't seem to be the case since there appears to be AHs out there with 4 blade.

On 6 blade barrels, there appears to be a different number of leaves in the scrolls on some barrels vs. others. On mine, it appears some scrolls have 8 leaves and at least one has 12. Of course, the size of the scrolls will vary by virtue of the production process but in some cases they seem to be much smaller and tighter-even on 6 blade barrels.

I thought maybe the difference between "extra fine" and "finest" was the number of leaves and the size and tightness of the scrolls. Bruce's observations are keen because one of my AHs has scrolls with 12 leaves and are so small and tight that the barrel does look gray from a conversational distance. Not what we expect to see but very elegant and sophisticated. Today it seems we all like to see bold patterns but back then everything looked that way so I thought when the scrolls were tight and fine that separated them from the everyday and made them the "finest".

I am surprised to see that this possibility is not discussed and goes to show you I think way to much about it! But, heck, it keeps me out of trouble!

[Dave Suponski]

Ray, Here ya go. I took the old girl outside but its 15 degrees so I didn't hang out to long. These barrels are difficult to photograph as they still have the clear coat on them that Oscar put on. I just dont have the heart to remove it just yet.

[Ray Masciarella]

Thx, Dave. What i see in the photos is a barrel who's scrolls are small, fine, tight and uniform and that is what might make them "finest" quality.

One thing we should probably not overlook is the fact that there was no industry standards in those days to grade the quality. What was extra fine to one maker was finest to another. I don't know if Parker purchased these barrels from different sources at the same time or over the course of years.

When you compare 3 to 4 and 4 to 6 blade barrels, you do see that the higher the grade the more uniform the pattern. I suppose that took some skill and time to achieve. It could have been that the difference between extra fine and finest 6 blade was this tightness and uniformity, even though it may have been splitting hairs. Because both the bars and rods were hammer more on higher grades, they may seem to be more gray and less flashy then the lower grades.

On the other hand, it may have been nothing more then marketing hype and I'm wasting time trying to figure it out! Especially in light of the fact Parker apparently used some 4 blade on grade 6 guns. Doesn't sound like Parker worried about the whole thing as much I as do!

[Dave Suponski]

Ray, Not to worry....This a great discussion on an interesting topic. Usually something good comes of these type of threads.