parker collection for sale

[tom boryczka]

Just saw on shotgunworld that a guy has put his parker collection for sale on guns america. Name is Ed Good. Dont know the man, but I thought some of you might be interested.

[Bill Murphy]

:corn:

[Chris Travinski]

Look in the for sale section here.

[Greg Baehman]

Look in the for sale section here.

He can't--not a PGCA member.

[Eric Eis]

Wonder how many have been hit with that low heat torch....:shock::rotf:

[Mike Shepherd]

There isn't a rule against dealers advertising in the classifieds here. At least I haven't seen it.

And one of the two barrel sets has been case colored by some unspecified method.

Best,

Mike

[William Maynard]

I read a few of the ads. Seems some of the barrels are not orginal.

[Eric Eis]

Seems most of the guns are not orginal.

Surprise, Surprise, Surprise.......:rotf:

Sorry I just couldn't resist.....:corn: And JD if you want to edit I understand.:rotf: Eric

[tom boryczka]

Sorry if I did something wrong. Dont know the man had never seen the guns. Just posted it, so people could look if interested. Sorry again. Hope to get membership soon, have to set up paypal.

[John Dunkle]

No worries at all..!

And nope - you don't need a PayPal account to join on-line.. See this post:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showpost.php?p=58449&postcount=6

Best to you..!

John

[tom boryczka]

Thanks, just wanted to bring to everyones attention. Should have looked first, can fit in a thimble what I know about Parkers but Im learnin.

[John Dunkle]

Hi Tom,

No problem at all - I only know slightly more than you, anyway. But, I post, read - ask questions - and it's slowly sinking in.. ;)

My Best to you,

John

[John Dunkle]

And - by the way - WELCOME as our newest PGCA Member, Tom!!! I iust got your Membership Payment - and the servers click your account over as a PGCA Member.......

Many thanks again - and welcome, Tom!

:cheers:

John

[ed good]

what can i say? except:

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[Justin Julian]

A GH is advertised as re-case colored, but looks to me more like temper colors from heating. Does anyone see bone charcoal case colors on that frame or know who did the coloring work and how it was done?

[ed good]

justin: as i recall, only one of the parkers i currently have listed on gunsamerica has had its receiver recolored. what specific guns are you referring too? ed

[Justin Julian]

Ed,
Thanks for correcting me. I edited my post accordingly. I was referring to the GH in particular and wondering what process is utilized to obtain that color pattern, if anyone knows.

[ed good]

justin: the particular gh that you are referring to had it's receiver recolored by ed lander, an old time gunsmith here in nh. old ed has been a full time general gunsmith since he came home from service in ww2, in 1946! imagine having the services of a gunsmith with over 60 years of experience! we in northern new england are lucky to still have him around to work on our guns.

anyway, he uses a low heat chemical process to recolor shotgun receivers. he uses different chemicals to simulate different factory receiver coloring, depending on the brand and age of the gun. for example, i have a late ithaca 20 ga nid, that old ed also recolored the receiver. it is very well done and is close to ithaca factory work of the period.

unlike the high heat bone charcoal process of recoloring shotgun receivers, old ed never heats a shotgun receiver hot enough to reach critical temperature and thus altering the original factory heat treatment of the receiver metal. keeping the heat below critical temperature avoids the well known problems associated with after market re heat treating of shotgun receivers.

[Eric Eis]

justin: the particular gh that you are referring to had it's receive recolored by ed lander, an old time gunsmith here in nh. old ed has been a full time general gunsmith since he came home from service in ww2, in 1946! imagine having the services of a gunsmith with over 60 years of experience! we in northern new england are lucky to still have him around to work on our guns.

anyway, he uses a low heat chemical process to recolor shotgun receivers. he uses different chemicals to simulate different factory receiver coloring, depending on the brand and age of the gun. for example, i have a late ithaca 20 ga nid, that old ed also recolored the receiver. it is very well done and is close to ithaca factory work of the period.

unlike the high heat bone charcoal process of recoloring shotgun receivers, old ed never heats a shotgun receiver hot enough to reach critical temperature and thus altering the original factory heat treatment of the receiver metal. keeping the heat below critical temperature avoids the well known problems associated with after market re heat treating of shotgun receivers.

:rotf::eek::biglaugh::banghead::crying::cuss::nono ::nono:

Did I forget any.....:corn:
:dh:

[ed good]

day: i do not know nor care for the purpose of your post. that kind of nonsense may be tolerated elsewhere, but not here. do it again and i will report you to the board.

[Eric Eis]

day: i do not know nor care for the purpose of your post. that kind of nonsense may be tolerated elsewhere, but not here. do it again and i will report you to the board.

Be my guest if you want I will send JD a message myself reporting my post. What you do to guns should be illegal... :cuss: Oh and my name is Eric just so people don't think you are talking about Bruce.

[ed good]

eric: i do no gun work of any kind. and i do not want to get into a pissing contest with you or anybody else on this forum. this is not the place for that.

[Eric Eis]

eric: i do no gun work of any kind. and i do not want to get into a pissing contest with you or anybody else on this forum. this is not the place for that.

Then don't post about a Master gunsmith that destroys guns. Give up the BS about low heat (torch) case coloring process you have been called up on it before on other forums and as you say "This is not the place for that"

[Carl Erickson Jr]

I just looked at the firearm in question, and the asking price. I have also seen the over priced guns on Gun Broker. The price of the firearm in question appears to be more than reasonable considering its condition. I personally prefer the worn patina on the receiver of my GH, although I will have the barrels refinished at some time in the future. That is my preference. I also have to remember that Parker did not for the most part make shotguns for collectors (presentation guns excepted) but as tools for hunting or target shooting. If someone does not like the condition of a gun then don't by it.

[Mike Shepherd]

Carl if an action that has been case hardened is heated above a certain temperature it can undo the case hardening rendering the action bendable instead of springy. When an action has been case colored I always wonder if the guy that did the coloring knew what he was doing. Raimey over on the Doublegun BBS put it well:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=239520&Searchpage=1&Main=21946&Words=Snowman&Search=true#Post239520



day:that kind of nonsense may be tolerated elsewhere, but not here.

ed I don't think you have the authority to speak for this entire BBS. That is I don't think you have the authority to dictate what is and isn't tolerated here. Please feel free to report my post to the BOD along with Eric's. Usually, at this point in our disagreements, you ask me if I have heard from Dave. As I know you have a keen interest in my relationship with Dave I thought I would save you the trouble of inquiring and let you know: Still no word from Dave.

Best,

Mike

[John Dunkle]

Hey guys??.

For a moment - I had to double check who was posting what about whatever... And at my age, I confuse easily.....

Anyway - let's keep the personal "barbs" to a minimum. In fact - let's just leave them at the doorstep, OK? Out of this topic at hand - there are several great threads that could be spawned - so let's stick to those...

My thanks and best to all....

And now - I'm back in "lurk mode"...

;)

John

[Justin Julian]

I was reading the thread posted by Mike....must admit that I was completely shocked to see these entries that are pasted below. While I'm as much in favor of free market capitalism as the next man, I do have to wonder why anyone who views vintage doubles as mere widgets for profit would want to be a PGCA member?

jrb: cept win yo heirs gives em to me or sumbody else to sell. then, we gotta fix erm, enhance erm and make erm look purdy, sos to get de maximum bucks out of erm...cause dats watt dey wants...





Edited by ed good (08/17/11 03:10 PM)

rhd: i been sellin used guns for fun and profit for about 30 years now. during that time i have learned among other things, what sells and what does not sell. and also, who pays retail and who does not. i do what i do based on what works and does not work. my primary goal is to maximize sale prices in a given environment. i never continue a practice that conflicts with my primary goal.

once a gun reaches my hands, it's about money...


Edited by ed good (08/17/11 03:23 PM

[edgarspencer]

justin: the particular gh that you are referring to had it's receiver recolored by ed lander, an old time gunsmith here in nh. old ed has been a full time general gunsmith since he came home from service in ww2, in 1946! imagine having the services of a gunsmith with over 60 years of experience! we in northern new england are lucky to still have him around to work on our guns.

anyway, he uses a low heat chemical process to recolor shotgun receivers. he uses different chemicals to simulate different factory receiver coloring, depending on the brand and age of the gun. for example, i have a late ithaca 20 ga nid, that old ed also recolored the receiver. it is very well done and is close to ithaca factory work of the period.

unlike the high heat bone charcoal process of recoloring shotgun receivers, old ed never heats a shotgun receiver hot enough to reach critical temperature and thus altering the original factory heat treatment of the receiver metal. keeping the heat below critical temperature avoids the well known problems associated with after market re heat treating of shotgun receivers.

Ed, I'm sure that 'old ed' is a good guy to have when you need something fixed, and it's nice to know there are still some old-timers around, but I think he has either not explained his process to you, you've perhaps misunderstood him, or, he's doing little to no good to guns he performs this 'low heat' process on.
Steels, whatever their specific metallurgy, have 2 critical temperatures, logically referred to as the lower and upper critical temperatures. The temperature necessary to carburize, which is what case-hardening is, is above the upper critical temperature (roughly 1650 F for .20C steels) Yes, this is a temp, if in the hands of an inexperienced person, will cause warpage, but it is necessary to to get the contained carbon into solution, and add carbon from the packing material. The skill comes in packing, to avoid deformation, and quenching, or rapid cooling from the normalizing temperature to retain the grain structure. The mechanical properties are not in a usable form; even though the UTS(ultimate tensile strength) is high, yield strength will be so close to UTS, that the other two properties, Elongation, and reduction of area, are nearly non existant. Read "Brittle".
a single, or often necessary, a double temper treatment is necessary for maximum, over all, physical properties. This involves raising the parts again, above the Lower critical temp, but well below the upper critical temps.
Whether 'old ed' is taking his parts above the lower critical temps to get these colors, often from 'quenching in oil' I can't say, but any subsequent heating risks simply annealing to a near dead soft condition. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to more than just 'simulate' colors of a proper heat treatment, and have it done properly. There are several good craftsmen doing excellent work. What may differentiate them to many is the resulting colors, but these guys wouldn't risk hard earned reputation simple to 'simulate' proper work.

[ed good]

edger: your post is interesting. what is a typical lower critical temperature for shotgun receivers of pre ww2 vintage?

you are correct, i do not know the particulars of old ed's recoloring process. what i do know is that i have sold dozens guns over the years that have had their receivers re colored by old ed...i have yet to hear of one that failed and i have yet to have a complaint from one of my customers regarding old ed's work. so what ever he is doing, he is not damaging guns and people who own guns that he has worked on like his work or they would not buy the ones i have for sale.

also, rereading your post reminded me of a conversation i had with old ed years ago. you both said essentially the same thing. in addition, as i recall, old ed's problem with the use of the high heat bone charcoal process re shotgun receivers, relates to the inconsistency of shotgun receiver metallurgy and the lack of available information regarding various manufacturers original factory heat treating specifications...so anyone, attempting to duplicate factory heat treating is going by trial and error or are just guessing and hoping for the best outcome.

the trade off here is do you run the risk of damaging the receiver beyond salvage by re heat treating the metal? or do you play it safe and just re color the receiver without changing the original factory heat treating and case hardening? i prefer to play it safe.

[Mike Shepherd]

A friend bought a Birmingham single shot hammer gun. It was loose. He sent it to David Yale to be tightened: three times. David finally figured out that the case hardening had been undone and that the action was soft and bending. David didn't charge him anything for the additional work and refunded his previous payments. But my friend has been collecting doubles for thirty years and shot and collected old muzzleloaders before that. David Yale is an experienced gunsmith. It took these two experienced gun men quite awhile to figure out what was going on. It kept going loose. The bending of the softened action was hard to detect.

I repeat; When I see a gun that has been case colored I always wonder if the guy that did it knew what he was doing.

I think the safest thing to do is to not harden or color.


Best,

Mike

[ed good]

"I think the safest thing to do is to not harden or color."

mike: we can agree on that. ed

"When I see a gun that has been case colored I always wonder if the guy that did it knew what he was doing."

we can agree on that too!

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Having followed the circus that is Ed Good over on DoubleGunShop, I can't wait to see how all this turns out here in the Parker World.

DLH

[ed good]

hunter: hopefully the monkeys and baboons will not find their way here...

speaking of the circus, have you seen the recent movie "water for elephants" ?

a very well done flick about life in a real circus in the 1930's.

[Bill Murphy]

Mr. Hoffard, I don't know why you are confused about the outcome "over here". Only a couple of months ago, a nameless individual was temporarily banned from this site for threatening another member with a frivolous report to the ATF with intent to injure the other member. He was allowed back on the forum, apparently with the promise to behave. Keep your nose to the ground to see whether he adheres to his probationary conditions. Oddly, you and I are in good standing "over here".

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Mr. Murphy,

I didn't know he had been allowed back on the forum. I'm disappointed to hear that. Of all our posters here, there were only three I dreaded to see write in and he was one.

DLH

[Mike Shepherd]

Yep, they got up a pool over on the Doublegun BBS and bought him a PGCA Lifetime Membership so they would let him back on here so he wouldn't post so much there. The pool was over-subscribed.

Best,

Mike

Just kidding.

[ed good]

murphy, market and mike: i fail to see what your recent posts have to do with parker shotguns? maybe youse guys could explain this to us...

[Mike Shepherd]

Why nothing.

But if you think we are referring to you in the last three posts we weren't.

Best,

Mike

[Eric Eis]

Ed you forgot most of the people on the Double Gun are members here.. The problem is when you post about "low heat case coloring (ie. torch) on this board, we have alot of newbees that don't understand what you or Ed Landers are doing to these guns:eek: So again please call John D or Jeff K (to kick me off this board) or if you want ask me, to call them and I will, what you or Ed L does to guns should be criminal... and I want all of the new people to know that ... (the others already know).

Questions....?

[edgarspencer]

Ed, I couldn't speak to any particular range of normalizing, tempering or annealing of receivers of any particular period of manufacture. Speaking in more general terms though, any particular heat treatment is a function of the base metal chemistry. Given that a heat treat shop knows the chemistry, very little in times and temps has changed.
Most all quality firearm receivers are milled from forged steel blanks. These forgings, prior to mechanical process to achieve their near-net shape, were born from molten metal, a media I am intimately familiar. For my last 25 years of my working career, I owned and ran a pretty sophisticated steel foundry. When I was a youngster, the company operated a "wet" analytical laboratory, for material analysis. The drawback of the "old process" was that you were performing an analysis that took hours, and well after the furnace had poured to the 4000-15,000 pound ladles, and the castings were poured, and cooling.
It was only by past proven 'recipes' and known chemistries of raw materials, that specs were met, or, within the range of the given PO specifications (ASTM, ASME, ANSI or Mil-S-xxxxx) As growth permitted, the company changed to Spectrometer analysis, both x-ray flourescent and vacuum/optical emission. This allowed the melting department to know exactly what to add (or boil off with liquid oxygen) to hit an exact chemistry.
This information was what the heat treat department needed to know precisely what times, temps and quench/cool down methods were necessary.
Even the old gun-makers had the tools (chemistry of the forged blanks) because the steel mills supplied chemistry since early steel makiing started. What made it more difficult was the lack of consistency through time. it was essential the heat treatment departments knew exactly, the tracability of the given blanks to the analysies supplied. Traceability is the major function of QC departments everywhere.
As an aside, Ruger, in Newport, up your way, is one of the only present day gunmakers who produces all their receivers from (investment) castings, not forgings.
Mike, That old SS frame cold still be saved. The HIP process, not one which many but specialty firms perform, is the Hot Isostatic Press process, where casings and forgings are put under, are you ready(?) up to a half million PSI. Apart from the obvious compression, grain structures of incredible fineness are achieved. I don't know how badly it was stretched, but good cut/TIG weld procedures can do alot. Also the hardness could be tested in a nearly non destructive way using either Rockwell, or micro-braille hardness testers.
FWIW, I don't agree that the "best" coarse is to not re-case. It has to be determined on a gun by gun decision. If the end result is a near-new restoration, the value (sentimental or monetary) of the end result has to justify the expense invested, and you don't go to the corner store for prime rib when the best butcher is just down the road.
Jeez, I miss my job.

[ed good]

why mike: why would i suggest such a thing of you and others, particularly with your sterling reputation for gentlemanly and rational posts? all i was trying to do was to remind you guys that this is forum about parker shotguns and nothing else.....

[ed good]

uh day...have a nice day...

[Mike Shepherd]

all i was trying to do was to remind you guys that this is forum about parker shotguns and nothing else.....

We disagree about the "nothing else" part.

Best,

Mike

[ed good]

edgar: you lost me long the way here...what i got from your posts is that your experience and knowledge is some what recent, meaning post ww2...what worries me is when a guy goes and messes with a factory heat treated shot gun receiver that was made prior to ww2 or even earlier...according to old ed, the metallurgy of that receiver is often unknown, as is the original heat treating and tempering specs...therefore, common sense says "don mess wid hit".

[Eric Eis]

why mike: why would i suggest such a thing of you and others, particularly with your sterling reputation for gentlemanly and rational posts? all i was trying to do was to remind you guys that this is forum about parker shotguns and nothing else.....

No, Ed you were trying to sell shotguns, you weren't talking about Parkers, you were defending what either you or Ed Landers (or one in the same) do to these guns Torch jobs on these vintage guns is wrong even you must know it....it is wrong (forget about making a buck):banghead: Ok JD or Jeff delete me.....Eric

[edgarspencer]

edgar: you lost me long the way here...what i got from your posts is that your experience and knowledge is some what recent, meaning post ww2...what worries me is when a guy goes and messes with a factory heat treated shot gun receiver that was made prior to ww2 or even earlier...according to old ed, the metallurgy of that receiver is often unknown, as is the original heat treating and tempering specs...therefore, common sense says "don mess wid hit".

Yeah Ed, I am just a youngster. Even though I am a 5th generation foundryman, I only worked in the business for 35 years, and never picked anything up from my dad, or his dad. You're right though, I did loose you 'long the way'. I didn't need to be there to know how metals were made and heat treated; it's pretty well documented, and, wow, even still discussed. It boils down to your lack of my familiarity with the topic that leads you to think what's common sense. It's very easy for someone skilled in the business to have the exact chemistry analyzed and re-heat treat a part to equal, if not superior physical properties

[ed good]

mike: well, the fact of the matter is: this thread was started by some guy who thought you guys would like to know that there was some guy who just listed his parker shotgun collection for sale on gunsamerica...in fact, that second some guy was me...and i have listed about a dozen parkers for sale on gunsamerica from three different collections...you may not be aware, but most of the guns i sell are on consignment...many of the consignments i get are from estates and from folks who are having problems and need money...so, please do keep in mind that when you come here to grind your axe, that it is just not me involved...there is more going on here than what is in your somewhat narrow mind.

[ed good]

edgar: seems like you took offense at my last post...if so, please do accept my apology...it is a privilege for someone like me to be able to communicate with some one like you. most of my experience has been of a non technical nature. you on the other hand seem to certainly know the foundry business...

have you ever reheat treated a shotgun receiver?

[Mike Shepherd]

I've driven in Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Arizona, California, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Alaska, Hawaii and Tenessee.

I've never driven in New Hampshire. Ed would you argue that I am not qualified to drive in New Hampshire since I haven't driven there before. Surely not.

Best,

Mike

[edgarspencer]

edgar: seems like you took offense at my last post...if so, please do accept my apology...it is a privilege for someone like me to be able to communicate with some one like you. most of my experience has been of a non technical nature. you on the other hand seem to certainly know the foundry business...

have you ever reheat treated a shotgun receiver?

No offense taken Ed.
There used to be a pretty good commercial steel foundry in Claremont, Joy Manufacturing owned it.
No, I have never done any shotgun heat treating. I'm getting ready to, but plan on giving it to a pro. I have done a few Winchester lever gun parts, but since retiring, don't have access to a good Thermoline anymore. I made Colt's heat treat boxes, and poured myself an extra one (CA6-NM, Martinsitic Stainless steel)

Mike, if you've driven in AK and CO, you're qualified to drive in NH. It's all up and down there too.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Come on guy's! This is getting to sound like another episode of As the world turns, no soaps here just great Parker guns!

[ed good]

edgar: for what it is worth, old ed is slowly assembling a kit of shotgun parts for me. the kit was made up from left over parts from the now defunct ithaca nid repro effort in the 90's. anyway, non of the parts have been hardened. so once the gun is assembled, he plans to send it to turnbull for hardening...based upon that recommendation, you might wana contact turnbull regarding your metal hardening needs. good luck and a pleasure learning from you.

[ed good]

mike: with your experience, you would probably be ok driving here in nh. however, should you come this way, think twice about driving anywhere within 50 miles of boston...they are nuts down there!

[edgarspencer]

edgar: for what it is worth, old ed is slowly assembling a kit of shotgun parts for me. the kit was made up from left over parts from the now defunct ithaca nid repro effort in the 90's. anyway, non of the parts have been hardened. so once the gun is assembled, he plans to send it to turnbull for hardening...based upon that recommendation, you might wana contact turnbull regarding your hardening needs. good luck and a pleasure learning from you.
Thanks Ed. I'm not a huge fan of Turnbull's colors, but that's just me. From what I've seen, and based on experiences posted by others, I'm a little more inclined to have Brad Batcheldor do one I have in mind. Have you compared examples of each guy's work?

[King Brown]

I asked one of North America's best gunsmiths about cc a minty Sterlingworth. He said don't do it because of the risk. I act on advice when I'm paying an expert to do my thinking for me.

[ed good]

edgar: turnbull has been around for a long time and does fine work. batchelder is a relative new guy. from what i have read and pictures i have seen, he also does fine work.

now the bad news. both guys charge big bucks for their work. so, who ever does your work, get a receipt, so you will have a chance of getting your money back come resale time. if i had to choose, i would go with turnbull. and only because he is so well known and respected among high end gun guys.

[edgarspencer]

I asked one of North America's best gunsmiths about cc a minty Sterlingworth. He said don't do it because of the risk. I act on advice when I'm paying an expert to do my thinking for me.
Which begs the question; If it was 'minty' why would you be thinking re-hardening the receiver to begin with?

[ed good]

king: good advise... as for foxes in particular, i am reminded of a c grade i saw years ago. it was a beautiful gun, exhibiting a complete professional refinish, including wonderful bone charcoal case colors...however, upon close inspection of the receiver, i noticed a hairline crack in the metal at its weakest point, which was at the origin of the 90 degree angle where the water table meets the angle of the breech...that, and some other fine guns that i have seen that have been ruined by rehardening the receiver is what turned me off on the idea of rehardened any shotgun receiver, regardless of the method utilized.

[Mike Shepherd]

ed you are the only one that I have ever heard of that has seen a problem caused by bone charcoal case coloring. Out of all the thousands of posts I have read over on the Doublegun, here, 16ga.com, the shooting sportsman. And there were recent extensive discussions on the Dolublegun about this subject. You are the only one and you have seen at least three.


Pretty amazing statistic.


Best,


Mike

[ed good]

well mike, think about it...what do you do with a shotgun with a ruined receiver?

you part it out...and destroy the evidence of your failure.

if you looked on gunsamerica, you will notice that i have several parkers for sale with two sets of barrels, usually with one set of barrels numbered to the receiver and the other set numbered to a different receiver...ever wonder where all those extra sets of barrels came from?

[edgarspencer]

well mike, think about it...what do you do with a shotgun with a ruined receiver? Depending on the nature of the reason you're calling it ruined, you can V it out and TIG it back up.

you part it out...and destroy the evidence of your failure. Naive, Ed. A scrupulous person would save it.

if you looked on gunsamerica, you will notice that i have several parkers for sale with two sets of barrels, usually with one set of barrels numbered to the receiver and the other set numbered to a different receiver...ever wonder where all those extra sets of barrels came from?

The answer to that question should be obvious to an old time gun dealer like you Ed. All the past bad press that damascus and twist barrels got, meant those who drank that cool-aid had them re barreled, either at Parker, or, later on, by most good gunsmiths. Certainly if you're implying all those barrels came from guns whose frames were ruined by re-heat treatment, you are struggling to make your case.

[Justin Julian]

Why would one simply assume that a hairline crack(s) in a frame was the result of the case coloring process? Perhaps it was case colored in an effort to conceal an existing fracture. Perhaps it cracked due to some form of abuse or preexisting defect in the steel. Without a lot more evidence to prove a causal connection, it would seem reckless to leap to that conclusion....much like concluding that a burst damascus barrel was the result of an inherent inferiority in damascus, without exploring whether it was actually caused by a barrel obstruction, overloaded shell, deep dent, etc.

[ed good]

edgar: over the years, my customers and myself have obtained parker barrel sets from a variety of different sources. those barrel sets include those made of twist, damascus and fluid steel. logic says some of those barrel sets came from guns with ruined receivers...

as for rebarrelling parkers, the common practice was/is to cut off the old barrels and then sleeve the existing breeches with new fluid steel tubes; and then relay the original ribs.

as for tig welding, two reasons it was not done? tig welding is a relatively new process? and why put money into welding a damaged receiver when it will likely crack again in a different place?

maybe we should just follow mike's lead and pretend there is no problem with rehardening old shotgun receivers and therefore, myself and others are just making it all up? but then, didn't king just tell us the following:

"I asked one of North America's best gunsmiths about cc a minty Sterlingworth. He said don't do it because of the risk. I act on advice when I'm paying an expert to do my thinking for me. "

[ed good]

so justin, us anti re case hardening quys are just makin it all up? have you ever re case hardened a shotgun receiver? if so, have you ever had one go bad? have you ever seen one that went bad?

[King Brown]

edgarspencer: it was a 1926 Fox Sterlingworth of benchmark condition by which all all others could be measured. John Mann got it for me. All original, flawless.

During a capsize a week before Christmas 200 metres from shore an hour before daylight in a driving snowstorm, it went six fathoms to the bottom in the North Atlantic.

Nick Makinson restored it to all its glory after immersion in its plastic case for six months. He advised against colouring because risk outweighed benefits.

Anyone who has seen his work would take his word for it.

[Justin Julian]

Ed,
Others on this site might accuse you of "just makin it up", but I did not. I simply suggested that you (and others) might be leaping to unwarranted conclusions without considering all the potential variables. And yes, I have case color hardened several vintage frames without any problems with warpage or cracking, which is not to suggest that it could never happen. Every restorative procedure has its inherent risks, and color case hardening is no exception. I would say though, that if one is going to undertake case color restoration, it should be done right; and that means bone charcoal case color hardening. A vintage gun is far better off left rusty and pitted than ruined by the lazy profiteers' torch. But that's just my opinion, of course.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

You guys must not read DoubleGunShop much. If you keep talking to Ed this thread will just go on and one and on and on and on and on and on.......

[ed good]

hunter: you may be happy to know that i am about at the end of the line with this one.

[ed good]

justin: lets you and i and mike all agree:

"best not to reharden. best not to recolor."

[David Hamilton]

Just what kind of nonsense are you referring to? David

[edgarspencer]

Tig welding (GTAW, Gas Tungsten Arc Welding) is not a new process, and was developed in the 1940s. Good gas welding was pretty much made obsolete by GTAW, but how many airframes were gas welded prior to that? I daresay, in the hands of a good gas welder with an AB torch and proper filler material, most gun frame cracks can be repaired and re-heat treated.
Cracks most often propagate from a localized stress riser. A crack which shows up after case hardening likely existed prior to that heat treatment, but opened up on heat treatment. Secondary cracking from welding usually shows up in the HAZ (heat affected zone, between base and weld metal), and is directly related to either impurities, or inclusions in the weld (gas, slag) or improper post-weld heat treatment.
Welding is a normal process in manufacturing of steel and steel products. Entire departments in companies like Electric Boat, are devoted to developing weld procedures and procedure qualifications. If it were such a risky process, I doubt we would build submarines from rolled and welded rings, 44' (Ohio Class Trident) in diameter, and welded together to make a tube called the pressure hull.
If my customers were as skeptical of welding as you seem to be, I sincerely doubt I would have been able to pawn off $10 million worth of castings a year.
I'll buy every cracked high grade Parker frame you can lay your hands on. You can throw in all those cracked Winchester lever frames while you're at it.
Oh My god, you mean they weld new barrels into old breech blocks? Don't they blow up?:shock:

[edgarspencer]

King, that must have been pretty traumatic, if not outright scary. If you want to pursue re-caseing your Fox, I'd suggest you speak to some of the other respected gunsmiths who are doing this process. I wouldn't roll over on only one person's say-so.
Destry, If I weren't house-bound, I would have tired of this a long time ago also, and as it is, getting a little weary swatting a myths and urban legends. If I have to say so myself, I have far too many years working with steels and most of their subsequent manufacturing operations to know what a qualified person is able to do. I also know what can happen in the hands of some who are not so qualified. As is usually the case, the failures get lots of press, but the men who know their stuff just keep doing what they're doing, quite simply, because success breeds more business.

[Paul Harm]

I'd like to thank Edger for sharing his knowledge. I wouldn't be afraid to send any work to Brad - and he's NOT a newbee. Myself, and two friends have probably had 15 to 20 Parkers and Remingtons worked on by him and have always been pleased. If something wasn't right the first time, he corrected it at no charge. This rarely happened. Paul

[ed good]

edgar: if i ever see another cracked shotgun receiver, it will be one to many...

as for sleeving shotgun breeches, the new tubes are not welded to the breeches, but are soldered instead...do a google search for shotgun barrel sleeving. you should find at least one good discussion of the process...and while you are at it, do a google search for shotgun receiver case hardening as well...this is not the first time this subject has been discussed.

sorry to hear you are house bound.

[edgarspencer]

Soldered or Silver Soldered?
I was making a joke re: the welding in light of your skepticism concerning welding.
I've had a few sleeved guns, only English ones. I have a friend in England who does a pretty nice job of it.

[ed good]

edgar: not sure if barrel sleeving is accomplished with lead or silver solder. job could also be accomplished with brazing?....if i make a joke about something serious, i will be sure to let you know it is a joke.

i do not know enough about welding to be skeptical one way or the other...

however, here is a tig welding question for you. i have a set of parker trojan barrels that have been fit to a parker ph receiver. do you see any problem with tig welding material onto the barrel top rib extension and then dressing it down with a file to fit the receiver slot, so it looks nicer? i am concerned about damage to the barrels during the welding process. to view a picture of barrels on receiver, please see gunsamerica item #904174340.

other expert opinions are encouraged.

[edgarspencer]

That's probably a question better put to one of the better known gunsmiths, as most all have GTAW capabilities. I presume you're refering to the dolls head fit.
What I would be most concerned with is keeping the heat input to a minimum, with quick arcs, since the ribs are soft soldered to the barrels. Additionally, he might use heat sinking materials wrapped in the area to absorb the heat. It might be better done removed, and then reattached prior to file fitting. My experience with welding processes is extensive, but far removed from this, a more delicate detail than steel components we made. Welding is often more than simply joining two pieces of ferrous metals. It can, and often is used to correct machining errors. Two $70,000 steam turbine diffuser diaphragms we made we over machined, by a mere .005", at the joints, which wasn't detected until they were completely fitted into the turbine. The rotor was lifted out, the joint faces were 'buttered' by GMAW, and the entire turbine cases were put on a planer mill ( Table was 12'x80') and milled back down till they were kissing the joint face. High temp ceramic blanket stress relief for PWHT. Even though it was GE's error, I didn't want to have to make them over again.
If you know anyone over in Newport at Ruger you might get into Pine Tree Casting; their investment casting foundry, on the property of the gun company. Pine tree is a substantially captive operation, making investment castings for the gun manufacturing, though they do outside work also. All the Vaquero parts, right down to the triggers, are investment castings, and they do in-house, cosmetic TIG on the many parts which have small surface defects.

[ed good]

edgar: sounds like tig welding around solder joints is a risky thing...as the dolls head serves no functional purpose, i thing the best course is to just leave it as is, even though it would like nicer expanded to fill the receiver slot.