Stepdad's shotgun...?

[Steven Dennis]

Hi. Just received this from stepdad's estate. Don't know a thing about it and its value. Can you help? It does have matching numbers when it broke it down into three parts. Serial # 16348 which indicated it was manuf in 1879. It is dbl barrel. 26 inches. It does say "Plain Twist" on the barrel. Underside of barrel when separated from stock (I guess the "flats") has an "M" and a "3" with an "8" raised above it to the side like an exponent. It also has the number "6892." It also has the serial number 16348 on opposite side. I don't see any number on the barrel lug. I do see a small "JS" on the forward raised piece in front of the barrel lug? On the watertable, I do see the same serial number followed by the letter "U." The small piece that locks the barrel to the stock also has the same serial number of 16348. The wood piece of that has been cracked and repaired many years ago.

What can you tell me about this guns quality...and, of course, estimated current market price? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you for your time. Steven

[Brian Dudley]

You should post pics if you can. If it is in fact a Parker Brothers gun, then it is an fairly early one. There is not much in your description that tells me for sure if it is or is not a Parker. Sometimes they end up being one of those Belgian "Parker" knockoffs.

[David Hamilton]

It could very well be a Parker as the description matches but we do need images to give you the kind of advice you want. David

[Steven Dennis]

Hi David and B. Dudley. Thanks for replying. I have attached some photos. Let me know if those are good enough. Thanks, Steven

[Bill Murphy]

If your gun matches the Serialization Book description, it is an outrageously rare 20 gauge lifter action gun. The barrels may have been cut, because the "book" states that the barrels were 30" at time of manufacture. The 3 and the 8 are the unfinished barrel weight in pounds and ounces. The U may be the grade. The 6892 is probably the order number. You must tell us if it is in fact a 20 gauge. One way to do that is to attempt to insert a 16 gauge shell in the chamber. If it does not go in, it should be a 20 gauge. You will have to get some professional assistance from an experienced Parker collector to determine whether the barrels are cut. A PGCA letter should confirm that the information taken from the Serialization Book is correct and matches the information from the stock book. A piece of information which would help us is the exact distance between the centers of the firing pin holes. The barrel weight is consistent with a small bore gun, so we are hoping you truly have a 20 gauge. For now, don't clean this gun, don't do anything to this gun except to keep it indoors.

[Bill Murphy]

The really good news is that both the order book and the stock book copies that should include your gun are in the PGCA research collection and should shed light on your gun's original configuration as well as the person or business that originally ordered your gun. That's a lot of information on an 1879 gun for $40.00. Get that letter request in as soon as possible. Your gun may be a very important gun to Parker collectors and have a bit of value regardless of issues of condition. If you choose to tell us where you are located, we can suggest someone to look at your gun. Please confirm that barrel length measurement for us.

[Bill Murphy]

You should send us a good picture of the water table, and don't forget the measurement on the firing pin separation. You asked about value, and no one here has any idea how much someone would pay for a gun this rare.

[Steven Dennis]

Here's a few more photos. The measurement between firing pins, if I measured in the right place, is 1 inch separation as shown in photo. It does accommodate 20 guage shells as shown. When the barrel is separated as shown in the first series of photos, it measures tip to stern at 26 inches exactly. I included a photo of the end of the barrel. p.s. Bill, I live in Orlando.

[Brett Lumsden]

Just a thought here, but could this have been a coach gun hense the short barrels ??

[Brian Dudley]

Good Golly, and it is a 20g! Go figure. Steven gets this gun willed in an estate, then he comes on here asking about value because he has no idea what it is. And it ends up being one that many of us would fight to get. That is the way of the world.

Though it may not be original, 26" length is not out of place on a 20g. gun. But it is a bit long to be considered a coach gun.

[Brett Lumsden]

I was just looking through members albums and found a Wells coach gun and I see what you mean.

[Jeff Mayhew]

Mr. Dennis is a very lucky man. Congratulations!

Brett, here's a comparison of two 10 gauge hammer guns; the "goose gun" on the top has 30 inch barrels, and the one on the bottom has been cut down to 20 inches, apparently for coach gun-type use (the shortening happened a long time ago, and note the alluring wire-wrapped stock). Most of the "guard" guns would have been in the heavier gauges.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/spikeismyname/guns.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Steven, this is the gun I predicted it would be, a very rare 20 gauge Plain Twist Steel barrelled, 0 (zero) grade lifter action hammer gun. The Parker Story, the research vehicle for all things Parker, tells us that there were probably 3 20 gauge Plain Twist lifter guns made out of 11,866 in all gauges. There were probably 2 20 gauge Stub Twist or Twist lifter guns made out of 2,376 in all gauges. In the first generation of lifter action guns, before grading was assigned, there was one 20 gauge made, with Damascus steel barrels, out of 1,983 guns in this pre 1875 era. Some of our researchers have located and written about the surviving 20 gauge lifter action Parkers. I do not know where yours stands in the chronology, but these researchers will come forth with information for you. Both that I am aware of post on this forum and will be reading this thread. I will say that our research files include repair orders for Parkers and may include a repair order for the work on your barrels, if they are, in fact, not original length. Your PGCA letter will include any repair order that pertains to your gun if the pertinent book exists. Some of our old order and stock books have been destroyed over the years and we do not have copies of the missing books. Good luck with your letter. You may get some private messages from collectors interested in purchasing your gun. I, along with many other Parker collectors would be interested in purchasing your gun, so be patient in making a decision.

[Dean Romig]

I wonder where the third one is... :coffee:

[Steven Dennis]

Hey Bill and B.Dudley. Thanks sooo much for your insight. I don't think my stepdad knew he had a nice shotgun either. I already got one message about buying it. I told them that I don't even know what it is worth. I will take your advice. I guess the next step is to get a PGCA letter?

[Frank Cronin]

Real cool Parker and nice gift from your step dad. A very nice family heirloom. Yep... send for the letter real soon and post what it says. Everyone will be curious what it says.

[Dean Romig]

Definitely get that letter! Then don't jump on anyone's offer before you know it's real value.

[Richard Flanders]

That is just too cool having a gun that rare coming out of the woodwork. In good shape too. Not a one of us wouldn't love to own it.

[calvin humburg]

Is it tight? grab barrels and pistol grip see if it has any lash between barrels and frame. GREAT GUN!!! If you sell it let us know because there are gun buyers out there who have no morals and would give you 100 dollars and sleep at night. Point being "bottom feeders" ch O and I being mentaly challanged would probably take it upland hunting what a great light gun.

Looks to be some choke in the barrels.

Does anybody have any idea why the lock plate does not fit so good not trying to be nit picky just wondered.

[Bill Murphy]

I am not a gunsmith, but believe that the lockplate, aside from being supported by the opposite lockplate, is otherwise only supported by wood inside the action. The next owner will probably have the wood repaired, bringing the lockplate back where it belongs. It is not something that should be done at this time by less than an extremely talented restorer.

[Brian Dudley]

If you sell it let us know because there are gun buyers out there who have no morals and would give you 100 dollars and sleep at night.


If it has twist or damascus barrels, then it must be a $100 wall hanger. At least thats what the guy at the corner gun shop will tell you.

[Brian Dudley]

Where do you live Steve?

[edgarspencer]

This is perhaps the most exciting thread in quite a while. A MM buddy was on the bridge of the RV KNOR when Ballard found the Titanic. Now I know how he felt.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, Mr. Dennis has posted that he lives in Orlando.

[edgarspencer]

I still can't get over how exciting this 'find' is. Coincidentally, we were just discussing another nice little 20 that may have been cut from 30" to 28", and I am in agreement that it falls in the 'who cares' category.
I have been in the position of fighting the two demons on my shoulders when I land a windfall: One being the proceeds gotten,(potentially telephone number type figures) and the other being an item like this won't come around again. I usually listen to the 'hang on to it and love it' argument; let them decide when I'm gone. I think it will be fun for you to trace the ownership lineage and see how far back it goes in your step-dad's family. If you choose to convert it to profit, and I'm not remotely suggesting that's what you should do, I think the best avenue would be one of the better known gun auctioneers. It's only my opinion, but I wouldn't do anything to it until you've had the benefit of truly expert advice. Having the barrels properly refinished, and having the wood refinished properly is something that many of our guns have seen without detriment. It makes them more pleasing to the eye without serious detriment to it's value. I'd seriously resist any other metal work, such as re-casing hardening the action for colors.
I see a Parker Pages artical here for sure.
All of the above is strictly my uneducated opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions.

[Brian Dudley]

ok, I was gonna say, maybe some of us might be able to point Steve in the direction of an appraiser of sorts in his area that is well versed in Parkers.

[Steven Dennis]

Per your request, here's some barrel shots. Agghhh... I now know how hard it is to get a good photo shot down a barrel of a gun. Here's my best of several. It looks pretty dirty on the front end to about 1 inch in.

[Steven Dennis]

Someone asked about the butt plate. Here's a couple photos. Looks original?

[Robert Delk]

It's always a good thing when something like this turns up. Gun looks pretty good and this all comes together at a season when we sometimes find ourselves looking for a reason to smile. I'm happy for all concerned and you don't often see Mr. Murphy excited on this forum.

[Bill Murphy]

Steven, yes, the buttplate is original. Next step is to wait for the letter. Robert, I am for sure excited. My research files, (in this case, just store bought stuff) allowed me to tell Steven what he needed to know to protect himself. He also knows to protect the gun by not touching it in any way. No screwdrivers, no sandpaper, no steel wool, no nothing. The next owner will not want anything to have been done to it.

[Christopher Lien]

It's always a good thing when something like this turns up. Gun looks pretty good and this all comes together at a season when we sometimes find ourselves looking for a reason to smile. I'm happy for all concerned and you don't often see Mr. Murphy excited on this forum.
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Robert, You make some good points...
I'm a little concerned about O'l Murph, every time one of these rare sleepers emerges from seclusion it seems like the excitement takes a bit more out of him... We may need to get a support group together and make sure the lovely Linda is checking Bill's pulse and watching his blood pressure during these discovery periods...:)... We all know that "Parker Excitement" can often be overwhelming... I remember several years ago KBM calling me over to a display table at the Vegas Gun Show just as the event was coming to an end, Kevin smiled handing me a very nice long barreled 28ga saying you have to shoulder this Parker before you go... As I recall the tachycardia in my chest was off the charts, and I still had a grin on my face as I boarded the plane for home, Yup, the 28-bore Parker was that nice!... One should never underestimate the alluring power of rare and interesting old double guns...;)

Best, CSL
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[Gerald McPherson]

WOW!!! Can we see a pic of the barrel top end? Thanks. Gerald.

[Bill Murphy]

Chris, I had no idea you took a plane to Vegas. I thought you and Noreen were walking distance.

[Christopher Lien]

Bill,
I cannot speak for Noreen, but if he's walk'n, his shoes are better than mine.:)

For me it's about 11 hours in the car, Or, 1 hour 45 minutes by air... The plane is a little faster...

Best, CSL
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[Dean Romig]

I would suggest, rather than putting it up for auction in one of the 'highly regarded' auction houses, to consign it with a highly respected purveyor of fine arms such as Puglisi's Gun Emporium.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Steven, You indeed have a very rare gun, I am in florida and do not have my records with me but am pretty sure less than 18- 20 ga hammer guns were made in lifter and top action. Regardless of the gr and ade, it is a rare find a one hell of a xmas gift from good old stepdad. I am currently the owner of the first 20 ga hammer gun made lifter, I say currently because with parker you never know. Your gun will only increase in value, so if you decide to hold on to it for a while or keep it she will not lose value. Congrats and welcome to the 20ga hammer club. Merry Xmas, happy new year