8300 PSI TOO MUCH FOR 10 GA TWIST

[Jerry Harlow]

I am looking for opinions if one of Sherman Bell's loads is too hot.

I had the components, Remington black letter hulls cut to 2 7/8", Winchester 209 primers, 29 grains Universal Clays powder, and SP10 wads. Loaded his 1.5 ounce loads with #4 American E shot and buffer (loads same as lead). He list the load at 8300 psi with a velocity of 1161.

I have an urge to kill a deer with the 33 #4 lead buck shot or the 23 #2 lead buck that equals 1.5 ounces in a NH Twist with .040" minimum right barrel and .050" minimum left barrel. Slight pitting.

I've fired one of the #4 AE shot through the left tube (strange pattern, shot holes through paper looks like a bullet that has tumbled in flight).

Still have all my fingers and did not kick much at all, but have not fired the right barrel yet. Opinions on should I back down to the 1.25 oz. loads and 6000 psi and same velocity?

Both barrels are full (.783/.747 & .783/.746).

Thanks.

[Pete Lester]

I would think shooting a heavy load of buckshot would be infrequent once you find a load that patterns well. If it is one of Bell's listed loads he considered them to be within the acceptable range for their purposes of shooting composite barrels. Your gun sounds stout but you did not note the wall thickness at and just ahead of the chamber where the most pressure occurs. You asked for opinions here is mine, I would shoot an 8300 psi load through my 10ga NH but I prefer a lower pressure if possible in the 7000 range. I would also try 1 1/4 and 1 3/8 ounce loads and use whichever patterns the best.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Mr Early I shoot damascus barrel guns all the time with RST shells I would be hesitant to recommend a certain load to someone not without the gun in hand, If you are going to experiment, do like Sherman did, a long string and get behind a building and let er rip. This way you are not going to lose any body parts with testing. Be safe Gary

[charlie cleveland]

remember buckshot will not pattern like small shot...if all the buckshot is staying within a 15 to 24 inch circle at 40 yards your gun is doing its job and the shell you loaded...there will be ragged patterns in all buckshot loads...if the pattern is looking like a rifle hole or not spreading out at 40 yards the trouble is that if your using a over shot card and its goingdown in theshot collar this will not let the buckshot spread out....ive done this a number of times tilled i figured out the problem....ive shot the load your using a no of times in a p grade 10 ga with twist steel barrels with no effects on gun....good luck on the deer hunt with the old ten....... charlie

[Jerry Harlow]

I'll measure in front of the chambers soon, but it is on a #3 frame and as the barrels are .040 r and .050 l at their thinnest spots anywhere I am betting they are very thick there.

I'm looking at another load and there is one for 1 5/8 oz. using SR4756 but only 7100 psi for 1121 fps.

But could someone tell me what "x10 x 2 1/4" filler MR" means for a wad on Bell's chart? There is nothing there to tell me what that is.

Thanks,

[Richard Flanders]

NOTES TO ACCOMPANY 10 GAUGE 2 7/8" LOADS

Abbreviations:

PSB Precision Reloading's buffer material
BP Ballistic Product's buffer material
FBS Felt Blue Streak wad
NC Nitro card wad
MR Mylar wrapper
x10x Over powder wad from Ballistic Prod.

Notes on specific loads:

Load #18 Wad Combo has a 10ga 1/4"wad and a 12ga 1/4" wad
Load #68 Ditto
Load #69 Ditto
Load #37 16ga or 20ga card may be use ILO 24ga card.

Hulls Bold Italicized indicates these
are loads cited in Double Gun Journal, Volume Eleven, Issue Three
Sherman Bell and Tom Armbrust Article "Finding Out For Myself"
"The Forgotten Tens"

Disclaimer: The loads on these pages were taken from the original three pages provided by
Tom Armbrust. I put them in a revised order to facilitate their use. I have also included
copies of the original pages from Tom Armbrust for your use and cross reference. Typo
errors were corrected after checking with Tom by phone.
loads and if you choose to use them you do so at your own risk.

Recommendation:
I strongly suggest reading the DGJ article pertaining to these loads before
using this data.

[Frank Cronin]

Great stuff Mr. Flanders! Copy and paste and in my files.

Been wondering for the longest time what x10x meant.

[Richard Flanders]

Those are Shermans notes, not mine. Can't remember how/where I got them.

[Robert Rambler]

Richard, If I'm not mistaken those "NOTES" accompany Sherman Bells Excell spread sheet for 2 7/8, 10ga reloading data.:)

[Jerry Harlow]

Richard,

Thanks. I had downloaded a .pdf file from this forum a while back but only three pages of reloads with no notes. I don't have access to that particular article, however last year I did read the article in a friend's DGJ where they finally were able to blow the Damascus barrels of a Parker at the breech face with a tremendous overload, but only after many progressions in increasing the charges.

I am looking for very low pressure loads to be safe. These NH barrels are the thickest of any gun I have, although they are Twist. Twice as thick as one of my 20s. I am going to find a 7000 psi or less load to live with.

[Richard Flanders]

Robert: That's where I have the notes but it seems there is more than one version of the load data that was distributed and that some got a copy without the notes. I don't remember where I got my spreadsheet that includes the notes in a separate worksheet.

[Pete Lester]

Where to find them.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/X10X-Gas-Seal-250_pk/productinfo/072X10X/

[Frank Cronin]

Where to find them.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/X10X-Gas-Seal-250_pk/productinfo/072X10X/

Thanks Pete. Things are starting to get more clear what these abbreviations and acronyms are.

According to the "notes x10x are stated as over powder card from Ballistics Products. I thought it simply was any nitro card which also goes over powder. A bio-gradable gas seal or spacer wad.

Secondly, while on the subject. If you look at the wad combo for load #90. What does x10x 2 1/4" MR mean?

2 1/4" of what??

[charlie cleveland]

i believe it means the mylar plastic wrap ..to be cut from sheet of plastic called mylar...its purpose to help keep a uniform pattern and protect the barrel.... charlie

[Mark Ouellette]

Charlie,

You are correct except that mylar wrappers are available pre-cut for 10 and 12 gauge shells. They are available in thicknesses of .005" and .010". Their purpose is to of course increase the thickness of compressable material, such as the wad petal, between the hard shot and the softer barrel. Mylar also reduces friction which should in turn decrease pressure.

Frank,

The x10X is a gas seal that in some loads is combined with a mylar wrap to replace what would in other loads be the wad.

Load #90 calls for (1) [thanks to Pete's correction below] x10x gas seal, (2) 1/4" filler (16 gauge wads or portions thereof) and MR (mylar wrap).

Mark

[Pete Lester]

Charlie,


Load #90 calls for x10x2 (space) 1/4" filler MR. That is two x10x gas seals and 1/4" of filler (1/4" tall section of a 16 gauge fiber wad) and a mylar wrap

Mark

I read it differently, (1) x10x and (2) 1/4" filler plus MR (it would seem 1 1/2" filler wad would work just as well). I don't see the point of using more than one gas check. Load 78 would require 3 gas check/seals???

[Mark Ouellette]

Pete,

You are correct. I never looked at any of the 3 1/4" filler loads.

I shall correct my post so that someone doesn't read it and follow my erroeous guidance.

Mark

[Pete Lester]

I'm looking at another load and there is one for 1 5/8 oz. using SR4756 but only 7100 psi for 1121 fps.

It has been my experience that SR4756 is a powder that will break your heart when used in the 2 7/8" 10ga. For me it produced far too many squib/blooper loads and they always seem to come when shooting at a bird. I have had much better results with SR7625 but as yet neither Scott K. or myself have found a totally 100% squib/blooper free powder for a hunting load. SR4756 is the worst powder to use when the shooting counts IMO.

[David Lien]

Any air, or looseness in the powder will squib/blooper every time with 4756 in a ten gauge hand load. Have had the broken heart.
David

[Jerry Harlow]

Thanks for the info on the bloopers. That is the last thing I want as I am loading for late season deer and then turkeys in April. Maybe I'll just back down to a powder I know to be 100% reliable with the 1 1/4 oz. loads. But it would be nice to take advantage of the 10 for loads heavier than what I can shoot in a 12.

[Pete Lester]

Thanks for the info on the bloopers. That is the last thing I want as I am loading for late season deer and then turkeys in April. Maybe I'll just back down to a powder I know to be 100% reliable with the 1 1/4 oz. loads. But it would be nice to take advantage of the 10 for loads heavier than what I can shoot in a 12.

I would like know what powder you have found to be 100& reliable with 1.25 ounce loads in the short ten.

I used to think more was better too. The average 10 bore's performance with 1.25 ounce payload is noticably more effective than the average 12 bore on both clay and game in my experience.

[Paul Harm]

Couple of years ago I tried the 4756 in 12ga and in the winter shooting skeet you could see the shot go 30 to 50 feet out of the barrel. Got alot of ribbing about not useing enough powder. After asking around I was told that 7625 doesn't have the same problem as 4756. I see it's listed in the SB data. Paul

[David Lien]

Pete: I have had ZERO issues with Green Dot. I load 1 3/8 oz lead shot,but Not at low preasure, or velocitys. This load is impervious to cold Temp., and patterns well . I do not know what the preasures are. I use a Pacific wad and no filler and 6 point crimp. Fed Primer. See what other people (loading books) recomend for powder weights . their is data out their. :)good luck
David Lien

[charlie cleveland]

clays is also a good choice for tens with 1 ounce to 1 1/4 but thats with 6 point crimp...all of myroll crimp get a squib fairly often espically on cold dayswith all the brands of powder i use..does any body else have this problem.... charlie

[Jerry Harlow]

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;57662]I would like know what powder you have found to be 100& reliable with 1.25 ounce loads in the short ten.


Pete,

I am thinking along the lines that David did, either with Green Dot or Unique. In 1.25 ounce loads in 12 I have never had anything but good results, so I am sure a call to Alliant powders will produce a load in 10 that will not cause bloopers. But that is why I am asking. In the spring it will not be cold but it is now so I don't want any failures when a buck or even a lowly doe runs by in front of the dogs.

[Joe Wood]

I guess I've lived a charmed life cause I have shot hundreds upon hundreds of loads using 4756 and never a single blooper or squib. I do wonder what the difference is in loading. Most of mine are Fed hulls, 4756, Remington SP10 wad and 1 1/4 oz shot with a six point crimp. But it worked equally well with 1 1/2 oz loads using fiber and a roll crimp. Humm.....and I've used these in zero weather.

[scott kittredge]

I guess I've lived a charmed life cause I have shot hundreds upon hundreds of loads using 4756 and never a single blooper or squib. I do wonder what the difference is in loading. Most of mine are Fed hulls, 4756, Remington SP10 wad and 1 1/4 oz shot with a six point crimp. But it worked equally well with 1 1/2 oz loads using fiber and a roll crimp. Humm.....and I've used these in zero weather.

boy, i wish i could say the same.the last time i loaded it for hunting was when i had a turkey at 35 yds and it looked like i tossed the shot at him with my hand, i load blue dot now,now it goes bang . i used up all my 4756 on the trap range and said i would never use it again, scott

[Bill Murphy]

Go on the internet and find the "shotgun powder burning rate" chart. If a powder is slower on the chart than something that works, it isn't neccesarily going to work in zero degree temperatures. How about using stuff that you have used all your life? Why go to some "boutique" powder that is hard to find and expensive? If you want a ten or eight gauge load that is going to work, use your experience. If you want to load a light ten load, like 1 1/8 ounces for skeet or sporting clays or birds, use a fast burning, cheap powder like Red Dot or Bullseye. If you want to load a 1 1/4 ounce load or maybe a 1 3/8 ounce load for pheasants or blue grouse, use Unique. Only if you want to load to full capacity of the ten, 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 ounces, should you use Blue Dot. To use Blue Dot in lighter loads risks bloopers in real cold weather. The reason I suggest these powders is because they are easy to buy, are tested for decades, and can be bought in quantity. Eight gauge shooters should use the same principles. You are shooting out of a big barrel. Your pressures with various loads will be quite low compared to ten and twelve gauge published loads. To load for casual shooting with light shot weights like 1 1/4 ounces, use very fast burning powders like Red Dot. Only when loading 2 ounce loads and heavier for serious waterfowling should you use powders such as Blue Dot.

[Paul Harm]

I use 700X for 1 and 1 1/8oz loads in the 10ga. It's what I use for my 12ga low pressure loads. Never a problem. Been useing it way back in the 70's for trap. Paul

[scott kittredge]

I use 700X for 1 and 1 1/8oz loads in the 10ga. It's what I use for my 12ga low pressure loads. Never a problem. Been useing it way back in the 70's for trap. Paul

i too use 700-x and have not had a "dud" with it with 100's of shots, love it for 1 0z and 1 1/8th oz loads, 18 to 19 grs of powder, scott

[Pete Lester]

This Green Dot load is listed in the current Alliant Reloaders Guide, it is for 3.5" Federal shells. To those who reload for the short ten what do you think about backing the powder off about 10% to 26 grains in a Federal hull cut to 2 7/8"?

Along with 10% less powder I would think that less filler material being needed would also decrease pressure slightly as well (going from 6 .135 cards in the 3.5" to a single .250 16ga fiber filler in the 2 7/8")

I was thinking about trying this in a Twist gun and maybe send the loads to Precision Reloading for analysis of pressure and velocity.

What do those of you who reload for the Short Ten think?

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Print.aspx?shotype=&weight=1.25&weightdis=1+1%2f4&shellid=447&gtypeid=3&gauge=10&lid=640

[Mark Ouellette]

Pete,

A roll crimp is great for pressure reduction.

Less "ejecta" should lower pressure.

I would start with a "cool" rather than a hot primer.

Mark

[Pete Lester]

Pete,

A roll crimp is great for pressure reduction.

Less "ejecta" should lower pressure.

I would start with a "cool" rather than a hot primer.

Mark

Mark a roll crimp would be impractical as I would use this load for volume shooting (crow hunting). Good point on the primer, a Remington STS or Fiochhi 616 (209 type) looks like it would bring pressure down further.

I got out my scale and weighed an SP10 wad and the 16ga .135 cards and a .250 16ga fiber filler wad. Ejecta (including powder) is 6% less for the 2 7/8" load. So we would have a 10% decrease in powder, 6% decrease in ejecta and it's using a cooler primer. My guess is this load would be in the high 7000's PSI but that is nothing more than an "educated" guess. I think might try these and call Precision to find out how to go about getting a 5 shot ballistic test done to find out for sure.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

[Steve McCarty]

I think I have read all of Bell's work and I trust him. He has shot BP loads that register 8,000 psi.

I have tied a gun to an old tire and touched it off with a string. But I was shooting a Ross Straight Pull MK II. Works fine. So did the rifle.

In one of Bell's studies he took a damascus Elsie and honed the barrels paper thin, and then he fired off the proof loads. No problem with the barrels. I think after a few shots the wood suffered cracks. Proof loads are heavy 18,000 psi shots.

While we are all concerned about shooting damascus barrels, after all we've all been warned a hundred times not to, but still; I trust Bell's work, and he says that when using standard loads they are safe to shoot. He even shoots heavy loads with little or no effect. I don't think that 8,000 psi should be a problem...just be careful of obstructions in the tube.

In the old days damascus barrels were considered better. Parker did proof their barrels.

I have always wondered if proofing a barrel also weakens it so that it will let go later on. Apparently this is not an issue, but it doesn't seem logical to me.