Short Chambered 12's.

[Brian Dudley]

I just found that my 1921 Trojan has the short chambers (2-1/2 or 2-9/16).
Any good sources for over the counter shells in this length?

[Rick Losey]

Brian

I like the RST
http://www.rstshells.com/rst_classic_shotshells_shotshells.htm

and the polywad vintagers
http://www.polywad.com/vintager.html

But "over the counter" for 2 1/2 will likely mean over the phone or web

There are other brands out there.

[Bruce Day]

Mr Dudley:

There is an entire thread " Fired Length of Commercial Shotshells" which some have found informative. Austin Hogan also provided a Parker chamber length chart and SAAMI specs. That thread and Mr Hogan's tables thoroughly covered the matter you ask.

You may be familiar with the Parker practice of chamber lengths and the concept of pressure sealing , if not, ask.

You may also be familiar with the Sherman Bell analysis of minimal short chamber length. If not, ask. I am not suggesting that even applies in the situation at hand, just that a person of serious interest in the matter might want to be aware of his findings.

FYI, here is a sample photo from that thread. Although RST shells are fine, a Parker shooter , with original chamber lengths in either fluid steel or damascus steel barrels, is by no means limited to using RST shells, although the RST owners are fine fellows.

[Brian Dudley]

I just read that thread that you mentioned Bruce. I am just kind of surprised that my Trojan from the 20's would not have 2-3/4" chambers.
I will go to some of the local big box stores this week and see if any of them have some in 2.5" length.
If not, I will order some through RST or another vintage source. I plan on just hunting with this Trojan from time to time, not blowing through tons of ammo at the skeet range or anything. So I don't mind getting a few boxes of specialty shells for it.

[Bruce Day]

As you choose.

I trust my point is apparent, that over the counter commercial cartridges are seldom 2 3/4" when fired despite what is marked on the box, that Parker intended chambers to be shorter than the fired cartridge, and that the minimal pressure rise from a slightly long cartridge extending into the forcing cone is beneficial and intended. Measurements of original marked 2 1/2 shells that we have shown here are longer than 2 1/2 when fired. Measurements of original marked 2 3/4" shells that we have shown here are frequently shorter than 2 3/4 when fired.

TPS has a table listing chamber lengths. In the end though, measurement is the only sure way to determine what it is. Your Trojan at 2 1/2" is exactly what it is supposed to be, see table at p 519 TPS. Depending on present condition, it was intended to handle over the counter cartridges up to service working loads of 9500 psi, see table, p. 515. I am sure you realize that opens a broad range of suitable cartridges .

For what its worth, several of us last season went through about a pallet of AA's through various grades of Parkers, including A's, damascus and fluid, C's and D's.

[Rick Losey]

Brian

There is a slim chance that Biekirchs may have them,

If by "big box" you mean Dicks or Ganders they won't carry such a specialty item

[Pete Lester]

Parker intended chambers to be shorter than the fired cartridge, and that the minimal pressure rise from a slightly long cartridge extending into the forcing cone is beneficial and intended.

Serious question, I am curious. Was this the case with all gauges; was this the case through every year of production?

Brian I don't believe you could hurt a 2 frame 12ga Trojan unless you purposefully set out to hurt it. I have shot every manner of shell from reloads to factory, from 7/8 to 1 3/8 ounce loads, both lead and bismuth through my first Parker, a 1913 Trojan 12. I have shot it a lot (thousands of shells) over the last 27 years. It remains as tight as the day it was made.

[Bruce Day]

Pete, I don't believe you could hurt a Trojan either either but you know how some people gasp at the mention of a heavy load. Your 1 3/8 oz loads likely exceeded recommended service limits, unless you didn't have any speed behind it, and your gun is still good for another 100 years I suspect.

Bell's reports showed minimal pressure rise in 1/4" short chambers in the order of 10%, anyway, thats what I recall.

If you look at fired lengths of shells in the period, they extended longer than nominal chamber length in all reported gauges. There was contemporary industry wide discussion of the extra hull length extending into the forcing cone and sealing better against gas loss than shells without the extra length. Muderlak discussed that issue at length. More recently, Austin Hogan had some tables on the length issue somewhere. I can't cite all the references off the top of my head, but I think we have also had PP articles about it, several I think. It might be a good research article to pull all the sources together again in a coherent manner, because this question comes up all the time to the new people. Up for it?

[Brian Dudley]

I to not yet have a copy of TPS. But I have a sneaking suspicion that there might be one under the tree in a few weeks. :-)

My major concern is putting regular 2-3/4" shells, either Target or Game loads, through it with the 2.5" chambers. My gunsmith says not a good idea because of the higher pressures that it will cause, but he is not as well versed in these older guns.

If I am reading into what you guys are saying correct, then there should be no concern?

[John Dallas]

The typical shell found at Wally World or Dick's are liable to be high pressure loads. You might want to consider a better shell such as some of the low pressure offerings from Winchester.

My S-I-L bought a bunch of low priced shells ($4.11 out the door) at Dicks. They work OK in his Beretta, but are now causing cycling problems in my Grandson's 11-87. I haven't seen the gun to diagnose the problem, but it is either swelling of the steel cartridge head or plastic buildup in the chamber, I'm sure

[Pete Lester]

I to not yet have a copy of TPS. But I have a sneaking suspicion that there might be one under the tree in a few weeks. :-)

My major concern is putting regular 2-3/4" shells, either Target or Game loads, through it with the 2.5" chambers. My gunsmith says not a good idea because of the higher pressures that it will cause, but he is not as well versed in these older guns.

If I am reading into what you guys are saying correct, then there should be no concern?

Brian I have become a big fan of light loads, especially 7/8 ounce 12ga. Some hunting situations call for heavier loads. I have come to enjoy the light recoil and how much longer a bag of shot lasts.

I have given you first hand testimony of my experience, how many other Trojans (and other Parkers) were fed steady diets of "heavy" loads without problem? The railroads overbuilt their bridges, Parker overbuilt their guns is my theory.

The evidence is in through Sherman Bells tests, pressure rise from using 2 3/4" shells in short chambers is negligible. However I am older and wiser than I once was and I reload. I have learned to tame my loads in terms of both pressure and velocity (the latter for less recoil). I can tell you low pressure lower velocity loads are quite deadly and I see no reason to go back to punishing my guns and shoulders unless I am waterfowling.

[Bruce Day]

OK, look at it this way. A typical AA12ga 1 1/8 oz load at 1200fps, what's that run, 8200psi? Then per Bell, add 10% for chamber length less than nominal 2 3/4" and = 9020, right? So you know from the p. 515 chart that your gun, assuming that it is not dangerously thin walled, off face or stock oill soaked, cracked, etc, has a recommended service load average of 9500 and a mean definitive proof load of 13,700psi. So are you good to go?

Then consider a typical Win AA 1 oz load at expended hull length of 2 5/8. That's 1 /8" of very thin plastic wall over the nominal chamber length. Is there anyone who would seriously suggest that that sliver would cause an increase of even 10%?


If you had an abundance of caution, you would never shoot an old gun.....at least that's what the manufacturers would tell you. So, if you do choose to accept some small risk, you can either try to understand these load and pressure matters, because some really get into this and like to know, or if you you don't want to think about it, just call RST and order a case because they formulate for older guns.

I am with Pete, I really like light loads at targets. But I also am somewhat of a student of shotgun ballistics and like to know what I can load to and sometimes I take real delight in dusting the 60 and 70 yard targets or the long dove.

[Pete Lester]

Ralphy asks if it's OK to shoot 2 3/4" shells in short chambers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jCr8QSGYss

[Dave Suponski]

Bruce, Please recheck your numbers standard 12 gauge 1 1/8 oz. loads are closer to 9,500 psi.

[Pete Lester]

Bruce, Please recheck your numbers standard 12 gauge 1 1/8 oz. loads are closer to 9,500 psi.

I think you are both on the low side. Factory shells are designed to cycle autoloaders. Tom Armbrust reported his findings on Winchester AA Light Target loads (2 3/4 dram 1 1/8 ounce) as 11,200psi + or - 600psi. They still won't hurt a sound Trojan.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/aalight.htm

[Dave Noreen]

The Remington era Parker specification sheets are reproduced on pages 164 to 169 of The Parker Story, and they call for about a 1/8 inch short chamber in all gauges.

[Bruce Day]

Dave, they are correct, as I checked that personally with a 1939 12ga.

I've pulled out the Hodgdon manual and I see lots of 1 1/8 12ga AA's at around 8000, and I am looking for the factory specs. We got a whole pallet of 1 oz AA ultralights and I'm thinking that they were around 8 or 8500 could be wrong. Most of the regular shooters at the club with doubles, stacks or side bys, are shooting very light practice loads. And we have a vintage shoot also.

I'm shooting a lot of 16's with 7/8 and the new Downrange wads.

Ralphy is a lot like me the first time I ever shot damascus way back when. Bundled up, motorcycle helmet and face guard, gloves, hold the gun at arms length waiting for the barrels to unravel like a spring, shrapnel pepper everywhere, I look away and pull the trigger and the gun goes pop. An d pop and pop and nothing happens and some old timer says told you so. So then I took off everything and shot a round of trap and had fun. I had bought a G grade damascus beater from Muderlak years ago, the best thing to be said about the gun was that it was original and not altered, but it had a decided clunker factor. And it was rock steady and solid with out of the box loads and I started thinking about all the wrong things said about damascus and old Parkers and how they were really much more capable than many people gave them credit for. Not delicate for sure.

[Dave Suponski]

Pete nailed it. I was estimating on the low side. Bruce, You are correct about the AA Lites. The big 3 shell manufacturing companys do not publicise there load data. You have to call them.My 1 oz. 12 gauge target loads are about 6800 psi and they break targets just fine. I have half a flat of factory STS's sitting here for about 8 years now and can't bring myself to shoot them.Maybe I'll run them through my Model 12

[Pete Lester]

\ I have half a flat of factory STS's sitting here for about 8 years now and can't bring myself to shoot them.Maybe I'll run them through my Model 12

Or you could bring them with you on New Years Day and I will risk life limb and gun and shoot them for you :rotf: My 9lb 3 frame 12 makes them feel like sissy shells.

[Mark Landskov]

Brian, I use my 1929 vintage Trojan 20 gauge for hunting only. I go through a few boxes of cartridges per year, and do not mind spending a few dollars more for RSTs or Polywads. My Trojan has 2-1/2" chambers. If I ever planned on shooting it a lot, I would simply load my own 2-1/2" cartridges. Most of my 'shooters', rifles and handguns, were made prior to 1900. For numerous reasons, I keep my handloads toned down a bit for recreational shooting. If I chose to hunt with any of them, I can bump the loads up a bit and still be safe. I am a firm believer in using the correct ammunition in my guns.

Added note: Today I procured a brass 3" 12 gauge shell with the Parker headstamp. I wonder how receptive an 1870s vintage Parker would be to firing a modern 3" commercial load.

[Dave Suponski]

Hey Pete...................Fat chance..........:rotf:

[Pete Lester]

Hey Pete...................Fat chance..........:rotf:

Alright be that way, I'll just kick your butt with my reloads, prolly hurt less than getting beat with your own shells :rotf:

[Dave Suponski]

We will see my friend.....We will see.....:whistle:

[Bruce Day]

Mr Dudley, I should apologize. You asked the simple question of where could you get 2 1/2 " cartridges and I responded with all sorts of pressure and measurements and all sorts of stuff that you had not asked. The simple and direct answer needed only one word, RST, and that was what I should have said and let it go at that. Your question struck an interest of mine and I ran off with it.
Bruce Day

[Brian Dudley]

By all means Bruce, that is ok. Your information is well received. It is a topic that I do not know that much about.
Yeah, my initial question was where to get 2.5" shells, but also if there is any legitimate concern with putting 2.75" shells through it.
I usually just use the Walmart Federals or Remington Gun Club loads for clay shooting.

Another question that comes to mind is if 2.75" hulls could be reloaded into 2.5" Could they be trimmed and crimped down to 2.5"?
Clearly if I buy a flat of RST shells, I would just reload them once I start doing so, but it is a thought that comes to mind.

I did measure some of my once fired 2.75" shells that I was saving for my first reloading experience and I did find variation ranging from 2-3/4" down to 2-5/8" actual measurements.

[Bruce Day]

I have several Parkers that have 2 1/2" nominal length chambers and have shot 1 oz Rem Gun Club shells through them. All of mine in that category are damascus or Bernard guns. I have had trouble with the steel base of the Feds expanding and sticking in the chamber after reloading several times. This is despite re sizing in the collet of a MEC 650. I have not experienced that with Rems. My favorite hulls to reload are the Rem STS hulls.

Some people have trimmed spent hulls to shorter lengths. They have devised a razor blade trimmer jig.

Some brand shells are longer than others, all of them stating 2 3/4 on the box.

Wal Mart stocks a lot of 1 1/8 oz 3 1/4 dram 12 ga shells. I think the recoil is uncomfortable with them and the chamber pressures must be at or close to the SAAMI ( Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institite) limit. They are not the shell loads that I would buy for my guns and my shoulder, although some may like them. I have looked at manufacturers websites and picked out cartridges that seem appropriate for my guns, then I call my local locally owned sporting goods store and order a case or several. My local store ( Olathe KS Gun Shop, where Mike Jensen sells all those Parkers) has been very helpful to take phone orders. Perhaps you have somebody like that there and you can buy case lots. On the other hand I have a very good friend with lots of high grade and valuable PArkers and I know he buys Wal Mart shells because of th e price.


I trust this is helpful and I hope I don't come off as some sort of know it all.

[Leighton Stallones]

Rio and Kemen 2 3/4 x 1 oz are both about 7200psi and the B&P 2000 competition are even lower at 6600 psi. Both are about 2 5/8 inches . I shoot them in all of my "short" chambered guns.

[Pete Lester]

I have several Parkers that have 2 1/2" nominal length chambers and have shot 1 oz Rem Gun Club shells through them. All of mine in that category are damascus or Bernard guns. I have had trouble with the steel base of the Feds expanding and sticking in the chamber after reloading several times. This is despite re sizing in the collet of a MEC 650. I have not experienced that with Rems. My favorite hulls to reload are the Rem STS hulls.

Bruce your problem with reloaded shells sticking is because the MEC 650 does not have a resizing collet. Your reloads were/are not resized using a 650, you have to have a stand alone MEC Super Sizer, or older MEC case conditioner or resize them on separate 600JR or the like first.

Brian here is the link to a video I put up on Youtube regarding the reloading for 2 7/8" 10ga. You can see a homemade shell trimmer in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owXs4Eg__BE

I also want to say running off a bit on any subject can bring up other interesting and sometimes important points of view or information. Nobody is forced to keep reading. I see no harm no foul. Carry on.

[Bruce Day]

Those fingers that grasp and squeeze around the base of the shell don't resize? No, they are not a sizing ring like on the MEC 600jr, but aren't they supposed to resize the shell base? No problems with anything other than Feds.

[Pete Lester]

Those fingers that grasp and squeeze around the base of the shell don't resize? No, they are not a sizing ring like on the MEC 600jr, but aren't they supposed to resize the shell base? No problems with anything other than Feds.

Bruce if your reloader has fingers that squeeze the shell like a stand alone Super Sizer you do not have a MEC 650, that would be the MEC Grabber or possibly the more expensive MEC 9000. (The 650, Grabber and 9000 are progressive reloaders) The 650 does not resize, the Grabber and 9000 do. You can adjust those fingers to squeeze a little more tightly and that should solve the issue with the feds.

Underneath the fingers is a lock nut. Loosen it and then turn the finger assembly to tighten or loosen the amount of resizing it applys, I can't recall if you turn it clockwise or counterclockwise to tighten it. I think it's clockwise. Try it and turn it an 1/8 of a turn, you'll feel more resistance if it is applying more pressure to the shell. PS. if not sure call MEC customer service, they are fantastic and they will walk you through it.

[Brian Dudley]

A bit off topic here, but just for kicks of it, I roughly measured my Late 1920's vintage Fox Sterlingworth 12g. 30" IM/XF tonight and the chambers appear to measure 3" to 3-1/8" at the start of the forcing cones. Now that seems odd to me. I will ahve to have them checked with a proper chamber guage.

[Pete Lester]

I meant to put this here but had both reloading forum and this one open with similiar conversations.

I have been thinking about this short chamber 12ga issue a bit and I think it comes down to what is best and what you can get away with. IMO what is best is to use shells the same length as the chamber, preferably low pressure factory shells or reloads generating the pressures of shells in the period the gun was made. Another option is having the chamber's lengthened provided you have sufficient barrel wall thickness and shoot 2 3/4 shells. I know that is heresy but here is how it goes when you go to sell your gun; the potential buyer will use short chambers against you as a negative to get the price down, or they will use the lengthened chambers against you to get the price down. If the gun is a lower grade or has lost it orginality by a restock what is the harm? That decision is best made after the gun is classified as a shooter rather than an investment. What you can get away with is another matter, good sound Parkers can take heavy loads whether the barrels are composite or fluid steel. How many guns did Sherman Bell try to blow up and failed and how much pressure did it take to blow up a Dam GH and Vulcan Steel VH, near 32,000 psi. I choose to treat my guns kindly with lower pressure reloads, some of my guns had their chambers lengthen others not. They are all in tact and have suffered all their wear and tear by being taken out in the field not from shooting them with any load. Remember high pressure doesn't crack stocks, heavy recoil and loose stock screws crack stocks so I try to keep my use of heavy loads to a minimum and check each gun and tighten screws if needed. Good luck everyone.

[Mark Ouellette]

Brian,

Old forcing cones were about a half inch long. Modern forcing cones are longer to reduce perceived recoil. Modern cones are typically 1 3/4" to 3 1/4".

If the old Fox has long chambers and short cones then while they may not be original, they are likely from long, long ago.

Being a Sterlingworth rather than a graded Fox the long chambers are likely not factory original. Back in the day long chambers were ordered for longer shells with extra wadding for pigeon and trap shooting.

Mark

[Pete Lester]

......Parker intended chambers to be shorter than the fired cartridge, and that the minimal pressure rise from a slightly long cartridge extending into the forcing cone is beneficial and intended......


Although evidence exists that Parker intended chambers to be shorter than a fired shell there is also evidence ammunition manufacturers disagreed with that practice and they provided warning labels to that effect.

Vintage Remington Express 3 3/4 dram, 1 1/4 ounce 2 3/4" paper shell, star crimp I believe with card glued on top.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj57/nhshotgunner/Remexpress.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj57/nhshotgunner/234shells.jpg

"These shells must not be used in guns having damascus or twist steel barrels, or chambers shorter than 2 3/4 inches"

Warning on the left side said it is dangerous to place 12ga shells in 8 gauge guns..... can't recall seeing that warning before over the more usual 20ga in a 12ga warning.

[charlie cleveland]

like the saying do not place 12 ga shalls in 8 ga guns...also like the one do not place 16 ga shells in 10 ga guns.... they shoulda said this aboutr the 20 ga too on the 10 ga because some 20 ga will stick in a 10 ga barrel if its tight choked...but most all of us have enough sense to not be sticking odd ga shells in wrong ga guns...but i do like to read these old warnings... charlie