RARITY OF PARKER LIVE PIGEON GRADES

[Paul King]

I have reviewed a good portion of this site and have not stumbled upon any information or history on Parker Live Pigeon guns. It seems these side by sides were few and far between. Would be appreciative of any guidance on where to look for historical literature on this grade parker less the gun history letter that can be requested through this website.

[Chuck Bishop]

Paul,

I believe what you are referring to is the AAHE grade introduced in 1895 which is the grade 7 gun and was the highest grade at that time. Initially made in 12ga only and had Parker Pigeon Gun inscribed on the rib. About 10years later it was available in all gauges except 8. Also, later on the Pigeon Gun inscribed on the rib was discontinued. The AAHE was available with Whitworth, Damascus, and Peerless steel. In my opinion, the AAHE is the most beautiful of all guns Parker Bros made.

Some also refer to any Parker sans safety as made for Pigeon shooting but I don't know if this is what you are referring to as "Live Pigeon Gun" grade.

The best source for info on the AAHE is "The Parker Story".

Chuck Bishop

[Bill Murphy]

Paul, I searched "pigeon no safety" and got 22 hits on threads that included those words on this forum. You may get similar information over on the doublegunshop.com forum. There is a lot of interest in Parker "no safety" guns, especially ones that are known through the PGCA research files to have belonged to famous shooters. Let us know who your gun is connected with when you get your PGCA letter. Several posters here are experienced researchers of early shooters. Much shooter information is found in the search function of la84foundation.org. The magazine in their research files that includes information on early shooters is "Sporting Life", and to a lesser extent, "Outing".

[Mark Ouellette]

If you are refering to Parkers ordered without safetys I do not think they are very rare. Why, because I come across them often that being offered for sale. These guns are in grades 3 and higher. Because I like to hunt with my guns I pass them by.

Were the safety-less guns bought for live birds, trap, of perhaps special ordered for the shooter who didn't think that he needed a safety?

[Dave Noreen]

In my half a century of playing in American doubles, I've seen more "no safety" Parker Bros. hammerless doubles than all the other American makes combined. In fact I've never seen an Ithaca or a Baker sans safety.

[Don Kaas]

I have owned about 5 "no safety" Parkers, almost all DH grades, a couple of Foxes and one Smith. These are not common but hardly "rare". I suspect most made after WWI were actually trap guns rather than "pigeon" guns. One of my many pet peeves is when sellers describe safetyless small gauge guns as "live bird" or "pigeon guns" (Jay Schachter, he of the interminable, verbose and florid descriptions so often found on GA and GB is a particular offender...) If you see a DHE 20 gauge made without a safety it was almost without question a Southern bobwhite gun...perhaps I am too harsh, the quail were probably "live" when shot at...

[Bill Murphy]

I have examined a few Parker orders for "no safety" guns that were clearly not made for pigeons and have never seen an explanation about why they were ordered that way. Nash Buckingham claimed that he didn't need a safety because he never loaded his gun until he was in sight of the ducks. I have not hunted with anyone who subscribed to that technique.

[Paul King]

Gents, thanks for all the feed back. Will continue my research to find its origin.

[John Truitt]

At one time I owned 6 Parkers without safeties.
One 30" straigtht grip known to have been ordered for the ring.
One 34" ordered for a well known trap shooter.
One 32" 20ga I have no idea why or for what she was ordered for and
Three 32" ers with no documentation other than ordered that way.
All were D grades except two VHEs.

If I could walk into the plant at Meriden today and order a new hammerless Parker today I would want one without a safety. One less thing to break or go wrong. I just dont think they are needed on competition guns. As for in the duck blind or in the field thats another story and to each his own.

John

[Bill Murphy]

I am in the middle of a 32" VH project right now. It came to me with the safety removed and when finished, the tang will be welded up. No fuss, no muss. The "Gold Hearts" gun is a no safety gun. That is the extent of my no safety collection if we don't include single trap guns.

[Don Kaas]

When hunting birds (i.e. bobwhite quail) on horseback, one commonly keeps the gun (classicly a 20 or 16 gauge double) in a scabbard unloaded. When the setters and/or pointers locate a bird or covey, one walks the horse up to the covey and dismounts. You then remove your gun and walk towards the dogs. When in position you take 2 shells from you pocket and slip them in the gun. The dog handler says "Ready" and the gun(s) say "Yes" and he proceeds to flush the birds. A safety is as superfluous in this scenario as it is on score in the pigeon ring.

Were I ordering a purpose built Parker for bird hunting, I would order an 0 frame straight grip CHE 28" Bernard, 2 1/2" chambered 20 gauge, double trigger without a safety weighing < 6 lbs choked right .005 and left.015. For the pigeon ring, a 1 1/2 frame 32" Whitworth, 2 3/4" chambered AAHE straight grip, single selective trigger without a safety, weighing 7 1/2 lbs choked left .020 and right .035...

[Larry Stauch]

I found one of those no safety guns last summer; 20 ga AHE with 30" Acme steel barrels on a #1 frame....and yes someone who didn't know what they were doing restocked it. The project is beginning with the search for correctly figured wood.

[John Truitt]

That is an interesting gun. What kind of trigger is that. Also it has the reinforced forearm lug. Very cool.
Thanks for sharing.

[Larry Stauch]

I don't know what kind of trigger it is, but I hope someone does. I think it will probably go in the restoration.

[Bill Murphy]

I don't know that I would be losing the trigger in the restoration, especially if it works. It looks like a fine piece of work. What is the provenance of your gun? I assume you requested a PGCA letter.

[Larry Stauch]

Yes, the trigger works fine. So maybe I'll reconsider that statement.

The gun was ordered in 1919 by a guy that owned Fresno Brewing Co and coincidentally sold it that year. Looks like he bought himself a fine shotgun with the proceeds from the sale. I bought it from the grandson of the person that befriended the former brewery owner. It seems they shared company at a duck club in the central valley grasslands where they were both members. The gun was a straight grip and it will be once again after the work is done.

[Chris Travinski]

Nice gun Larry!

Ray,
I have always been intrigued by the safetyless guns too, are you collecting info for a Parker Pages article? I would love to hear about what you find out. They aren't too uncommon, but the few I have handled seem to be made with alot of attention to detail. Just picked up a neat DHE live bird or trap gun. I would love to hear it's story.

Thanks,
Chris

[Ed Blake]

I've heard of those long-barreled 20 gauge California duck guns. I'm in agreement with Bill Murphy, leave the trigger as is.

[Dave Suponski]

Larry, What frame size is that great gun?

[Ed Blake]

I'll bet it has 3" chambers too.

[Jeff Kuss]

Here is the letter on my 20 Vh without a safety or dolls head. I also have a Dh 12 ga without the safety or dolls head.

[Dean Romig]

Larry, your AHE, having a single non-selective trigger is most likely to be choked alike in both barrels... right?

[Larry Stauch]

The chambers are 2-3/4" and it's on a #1 frame. The right barrel, measured with the Galazan gauge, is modified in the right barrel and improved modified in the left barrel.

But, here's a DH on a number 2 frame that I saw at a gunshop. The gun has 32" barrels and the wood was cracking behind the top tang. I didn't buy it because there were no drop points off of the side plates.

The coolest thing about this gun is the flat rib, no concavity to it at all, and it was about 5/8" wide at the breach and narrowed to about 3/8" at the end of the barrels.

[Dave Suponski]

Larry, Thanks for the info. She looked a little heavy at the breech. They both look to be great guns.

[John Truitt]

A flat rib 32" DH sans safety. Very interesting.
Hard to pass on a gun like that.

[Bill Murphy]

Larry, where is the flat rib gun? I'll walk there tomorrow morning and pick it up. PM me or email me at wilmrph@verizon.net No hurry though, because it is gone by now. That is one nice gun.

[Bill Murphy]

Jeff, do you know who O.W. Gaines was? If not, let me know and I will tell you.

[Larry Stauch]

That DH has been there for months. Nobody wanted it. They wanted $5,500 for it. I'll call tomorrow to see if it's still there and if so I''ll let you know Bill.

But what's the thinking on no drop points??

Here's some more pictures of the rest of the gun.

[Dave Suponski]

I don't know about the drop points. But judging by the size of the wrist on that gun it looks to be a competition gun. Maybe a letter would spell it out.

[Jeff Kuss]

Bill,
I do not know who O. W. is. I was not able to find anything on google.
Jeff

[Christopher Lien]

Jeff,
There was an Oliver W. Gaines, who was the son of long time Parker employee Leroy J. Gaines... Research indicates early on Oliver spent some time as a bookkeeper in the service of the Charles Parker Co, and he may have studied a few years at Yale University (1893-94)... Both Oliver and his father Leroy also participated in shooting events at the Meriden Parker Gun Club during the late 1890's... Later on in life Oliver went into the insurance business and he resided in the Worcester area... A brief reference to Oliver's father Leroy (who started as a clerk in the Parker Gun Department) can be found on page #554 of TPS... Hope this helps with some history on your VH 20...

Best, CSL
____________________________

[Bill Murphy]

O.W. Gaines was a Parker Brothers employee in marketing until 1906 when there is evidence that he resigned. His name shows up as a PB representative at least back into the mid 1890s. He was an active promoter of the Pigeon Gun when it was being introduced. This information mostly came from a search for "gaines" in Sporting Life magazine on the la84foundation.org website.

[Jeff Kuss]

Bill and Chris,
Thanks for the info about Mr. Gaines. I guess I need to improve my search skills.
Jeff

[John Havard]

Was there a propensity of longer-barreled guns to be ordered with no safety? What about a 12 bore with 34" barrels and no safety, DHE, built in the 1908 time frame. What would such a gun have been intended for? Trap? Live birds?

[Dean Romig]

I have examined a CHE Damascus 30" 20 ga. that was ordered by someone in Canada.

It went back to Meriden at a later date to "add safety".



.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Josh,

I've got one about like that, and yes it was.


Destry

[Chris Travinski]

Here's another 34" safetyless DHE, currently for sale.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Parker-DHE-SxS-12-Gauge.cfm?gun_id=100219983

[Bill Murphy]

Evidence of original safety.

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Bill,

Are you saying that the 34" DHE on Guns International may have had a safety?

Other than the lack of drop points on the stock, what is your opinion of this gun?

Respectfully,
Mark

[Bill Murphy]

The gun is fine, but I would like to see a PGCA letter on the gun before passing judgement on the safety and its provenance.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

It could be straight, but you can definitely see where the slot is filled in. I've never seen a real no safety gun where you could see it, even though they all were.


Destry

[Ed Blake]

The 34" barrels make this gun regardless of the safety. Where are you Dr. Truitt?

[Bill Murphy]

None of Edwin Hedderly's smallbores were made for pigeons or competition, but all four were ordered without safeties. A-1 Specials in 20 and 16, DHEs in 16 and 28, all 32" guns, all made for hunting.

[Chris Travinski]

That looks correct. Mine letters shipped without a safety, the slot is milled into the tang and then filled with a small piece, and engraved over.