Need a value

[randysundberg]

Hello all; I am looking for a value (range estimate) for a Parker 12 gauge side by side I recently acquired. I have been nosing around the site and have determined the following: Serial No. 205866; Grade is PH; barrel weight is 4; frame size is 2. Any info on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Russ Jackson]

Hello Randy ,I don't think any one here will give you a value on the gun without pictures ,there are just too many variables ,Refinish ,cut barrels off face , etc ,the list goes on and on ,if you post pictures ,there are many knowledgeable folks who will be more than willing to share an opinion ! Best ; Russ

[randysundberg]

Thanks Brush Buster, let me work on posting some photo's.

[randysundberg]

DSCN0569

[randysundberg]

Hello all; I am looking for a value (range estimate) for a Parker 12 gauge side by side I recently acquired. I have been nosing around the site and have determined the following:
Serial No. 205866;
Grade is PH;
barrel weight is 4;
frame size is 2.
Any info on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

[randysundberg]

I am also looking for some references to who could clean / and or refurbish this gun.

[Bill Murphy]

A gun with many flaws that would cost a bit of money to eliminate. However, a Parker Steel barrel PHE with a #2 frame is an excellent candidate for a partial restoration to make an attractive shooter. It appears that the receiver has not been buffed or ground down, one of the most difficult flaws to correct. Assuming original barrels with factory bore and choke dimension, this gun could sell for $2000 or even more. A hint about your location would get you some ideas about a convenient restoration specialist.

[Mark Ouellette]

Randy,

What is the rectangle surrounding the forend latch?

Mark

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah, what is the deal with the forend? Do we know that the barrels are Fluid steel. The higher serial number could hint at this. What is the top rib marking?

[randysundberg]

The marking on the top of the barrel says "Parker Steel". The silver rectangle around the fore end latch is some sort of metal in-laid into the wood; I will take a better picture of this tonight. I'm in Northern California up here in the Redwoods. This is my first side by side. Even a partial restoration would do; I am just looking for any advice. The gun looks plenty shootable now however I would like to send it to an expert. Thanks again all for your your comments.

[Brian Dudley]

ok, So those are fluid steel barrels. Which will help you out in the value department by way of rarety. Thats because most of the P grades are twist steel and the P grade became a much less popular model with the introduction of the V and then Trojan grades. The P grade was discontinued not long after the switch to primarily using steel barrels on standard order guns. I do not know the figures, but not too many P grades would have been made with the Fluid steel barrels.

Unfourtunately that metal being inlayed on the forend really hurts the value a lot. Not sure why that would have ever been done.

There is not a pic of the rest of the buttstock or the barrels in order to tell the condition of the rest of the wood or the bluing. But I woudl say that by way of restoration, a new forend would be on the slate at least. Not sure what other direction you would be wanting to go with it. The collector value of the gun has been effected with that forend. So a more extensive restoration might not be a bad option.

[Bruce Day]

A 1921 PHE Parker Steel 16ga has been my go-to gun since the early 1970's. If photos are needed showing how one should look, let me know.

A new ejector forend is expensive to make because of all the inletting work involved. A proper P forend has a different checkering pattern than a V or G.

TPS shows that there were 14,230 P grade with Twist and 1,339 with Parker Steel. Although Parker Steel P's are uncommon, I am not sure that there are any historical sales figures that demonstrate an increased value or desireability over the next closest grades except in the unusual piece, like a .410. While there may be a slight added interest or special comment, I doubt that translates to higher value. Gauge, grade and condition dictate and the P is close to the V.

Bruce Day, Parker beginner and non expert

[Pat Dugan]

Someones name is on the trigger guard, that might give you a clue as to why the metal wrap around on the forend, maybe a jeweler. I bought a PHE in a little better shape with ejector trouble and great wood for $950.00 some time ago. That may be a ballpark figure.

PDD

[randysundberg]

I am working on the name on the trigger gaurd. I'm going to do a little more research on that. I am not sure if it was a long lost relative or what as this gun was willed to me by a great grandfather.

[Pete Lester]

A
A new ejector forend is expensive to make because of all the inletting work involved. A proper P forend has a different checkering pattern than a V or G.


What is the difference in checkering pattern between a V and a P grade? I thought they were the same.

[Dave Suponski]

I agree Pete. I think Bruce just wants to see if we are paying attention...:)

[Bill Murphy]

It will not be an impossible task to find a forearm wood for an ejector #2 frame gun. Advertise here and on the doublegunshop site and you will probably find a forearm wood in short order.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, sorry I pulled a fast one on you. One of the pictures of the PHE showed a little piece of a "P" on the barrel flat indicating that the barrels were Parker Steel. Pittypatdugan, I sold a PHE steel barrel gun for $950 in line waiting to get into the Louisville show a few years ago. Were you the guy who bought that gun?

[randysundberg]

Here are some more pics.... some closer up!

[Pat Dugan]

I bought the PHE from a gun dealer, it has two brass screws coming thru the rib where the lug was re soldered years ago, I know it can be repaired but it looks kind of neet to go with its age, and it shoots great at trap , 30 inch full and full. Mine is a 1 1/2 Frame

PDD

[Chuck Bishop]

Randy, here is what I would do and I'm assuming the gun has sentimental value to you and you want to keep it, not sell it.

To me the gun looks like it's a canidate for restoring, assuming that the barrels are in good condition. You have great looking wood for a P grade except for the forend, and the screws look good. The gun was willed to you so you don't have any money in the gun from purchasing it. The money spent to restore it would be recouped if you ever decide to sell it.

Mimimum I would do is replace the forend wood. If you want to go farther, have the metal recase colored. This would require the engraving to be picked up but a P grade has minimal engraving so that shouldn't be too expensive. I'd also have the engraver file down the trigger guard to remove the name and reengrave it. You may also want the barrels reblued depending on the amount of original blueing remaining. Lastly, you could refinish the stock by yourself which with a little bit of practice, it would turn out nice.

I have no idea how much this would cost but I think you would recover your cost if you ever sell it.

I'd send it to Brad Bachelder in Michigan for an estimate.

[Brian Dudley]

The buttstock is in good condition and is very nice on that PHE. However, in my opinion, the wood is too nice for a P grade and the checkering pattern on the wrist is not correct for the grade either.

If it were my gun and I wanted were to do any sort of restoration, I would replace the forend, recut checkering on the wrist, maybe add some finish to the buttstock (but it looks like it might be ok as is), file out the name on the guard, polish and reblue the guard. That would dress the gun up enough and address the issues with it but not be too much.

[randysundberg]

As expected there are a lot of options out there. Pa SxS; you are right I will never sell this gun. Do you fellows have an opinion about the red colored "Western Field" butt pad? Was that original or is it supposed to have a metal butt cap? B.Dudley are you saying the stock is not factory or the original stock that came on the gun? Do you guys know the guy from Bend, Oregon "Double Guns and Gun Smithing" he has a link on your site and this is not to far from me I acutally travel through quite often.

[charlie cleveland]

i d shoot the daylights out of it and be quite pleased with it...if there are no mechanical problems why fix any thing....i kinda like the forearm... charlie

[Russ Jackson]

Hello Randy ,I was looking over this thread about 1:00 AM this morning and was just too tired to sit and type ,but I agree with Brian ,I too thought the gun may have been restocked and the checking isn't correct as Brian says , If you are careful not to bugger the Trigger guard screw ,you could take the screw out and lift the rear of the guard carefully not to chip any wood ," Don't pry with screw driver " and with the gun laying on its barrels ,turn the trigger guard counter clockwise , it will unscrew from the receiver and if it is the original stock ,the serial # will be stamped into the wood under the trigger guard , of course it is up to you if you want to check ,but I didn't know if you were aware of this ! Best ; Russ

[Brian Dudley]

The western field pad is not corect. This would be an aftermarket pad or maybe one off a Sears gun. Don't quote me on the Sears part. Gun would have most likley originally had a Dogs Head hard buttplate.

If the buttstock is original, then it has been cut for that pad. If you do not like that pad on it, just replacing it with a period correct one would be a good option. A Jostam or Hawkins pad would be a period correct option. But the Pachmyer old english leather finish pads are nice and have a great look on classic doubles. They make a sporting clays model that is very nice if the gun is going to be shot a lot.

Checking the S/N under the rear of the guard would be the way to tell if the buttstock is original or not to the gun. Every now and then a lower grade gun can be found with very nice figured wood, but it is the checkering pattern that concerns me. Maybe it was recut with that pattern or special ordered even. But that style of checkering was not used until the C grade guns. The correct P grade checkering would be along the lines of the V grade pattern. Also the shape of the comb hints to it being a non-original replacement.

Of course all these points are only to lend a hand in your decision of to restore or not and how/what to do. Just some things to think about.

[Dave Suponski]

I can't see the head end of the stock but the checkering I can see almost looks to be C grade. Pull that trigger guard screw and check under it for a serial number.

[Bruce Day]

I am no expert, and my statement about P forend checkering being different than V shows that. I was thinking that the P's had a border around the latch and they don't. So I was wrong. However, I am not concerned at all about the wood firgure. Its typical that P's have one nice figured side and the other fairly plain. I have one just like that. You know the forend has some silver wired border in there. You know the Western Field pad is not original and looks odd on a Parker. The stock checkering has a bulge above the grip that is odd and its not C type or P type.....I have both, I think I know. But I have seen and posted pictures of checkering that is odd for the grade . A close look may show it to be original or added but I would not rule out original. I've posted many pictures here of grades with non standard checkering.

By the way, I kind of like these little custom touches. I have seen guns with ivory grip caps and silver grip caps cast in the form of the standard Parker gripcap. I think they are neat. Not that I own any guns like that, but they are interesting.

What I would do with the gun is just clean it up, refinish the wood yourself, leave the silver wire forend with darkened center the way it is, clean up the metal and barrels with a little lighthanded Flitz or other cleaner/polish and leave it the hell alone. Maybe you consider changing out the pad to a Hawkins, etc. ( available at Conn. Shotgun web site) . Then shoot it and shoot it some more.

[Larry Frey]

I can't see the head end of the stock but the checkering I can see almost looks to be C grade. Pull that trigger guard screw and check under it for a serial number.

Dave,
If I recall correctly Greg Millers VHE letters with a C grade stock including C style checkering.

[Bruce Day]

1921 PHE 16/28, true to type. Used hard , perhaps 80,000 rounds through it. A&F leg of mutton case and replicas of original Parker gun sleeves provided with low grade guns.

[randysundberg]

I think I will have the metal cleaned and the stock redone, and inspected. I kind of like the metal inlaid on the forend. Again thanks for all your input and any other opinions / options / advice will be much appreciated; So back to the orignal question: does anyone want to put a value on this as is?

[randysundberg]

I also wanted to say that this being my first double gun (A Parker at that) these are quite impressive and just holding a gun that old thinking of all of the hand work that goes into these gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. I mainly shoot Benelli and it is neat to step back in time.

[Dean Romig]

Once you start shooting that Parker you'll be hearing your Benelli calling from the safe... "Hey, what about me?... Yon never take me out anymore!"

[Dean Romig]

Dave has a PHE 16 just like that one Bruce... fits me like it was made for me... maybe he'll let me borrow it sometime :corn:

[Bruce Day]

[quote=randysundberg;55838].... I mainly shoot Benelli .....]


Usually people Benelli in private and don't talk about it.

[David Holes]

A classy forum like this should't be held back with such trash talk.

[Pete Lester]

One of the most interesting aspects of Parker shotguns is they are time travelers that connect us to a different and distant past. Few of us are lucky enough to have an heirloom Parker shot and held by an ancestor.

Randy your gun is special for that reason and for that reason I would not change a thing cosmetically. I would make sure everything mechanical is in good working order and perhaps have a qualified and most trusted gunsmith open it up, clean and lubricate all the internals.

To my mind everytime you hold and use this gun as is you are reconnected to your grandfather. Start changing it and you will lose that connection because every change erases something the way it was when he owned it.

Most everyone likes their guns (and other stuff) to be like new. It is an acquired taste to appreciate knicks, dings, scratches, and wear as "character". My advice, leave it alone except for a clean and lube and mechanical fixes and enjoy it, use any money you were thinking about restoring it into the purchase of another more original Parker shotgun (or a candidate for restoration with no family connection). There are plenty of nice Parker's out there, you'll never get another heirloom Parker.

I'll close by giving you a value. As an heirloom gun to you it should be priceless and never considered for sale. If there was no family connection, in todays market it would be about $1000 + or - to my mind. You may get more money by parting it out. The barrels if all original would be the most valuable part.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Mark Ouellette]

I admit to owning a camo Benelli M-2 autoloader. It is absolutely deadly on ducks over decoys! I have not however shot it since catching Parker-itus.

There is nothing like dropping waterfowl at insane ranges using a 120 year old Parker with Damascus barrels and a carefully assembled handload.

[Bill Murphy]

Keith Kearcher will do anything that needs to be done at a fair price.

[randysundberg]

Next question: for pheasant hunting for example what are the outside parameters of ammo can be shot through this thing safely? (I don't hand reload).

[Bruce Day]

1 1/4oz, 3 1/2 dre. Or more precisely, the then SAAMI max of 10,500 psi loads.

Your gun was likely patterned with 1 1/8oz, 3 dre. If you had the box or the hang tags, they would tell you the patterning load.

I shoot a lot of Great Plains wild pheasants in the wind and cold and use both loads. As to whether those loads can be shot through your gun safely, I don't know, but I do know that Parker guns of your gun's weight and configuration were designed to shoot those loads.

See p.714 TPS for details including service and proof load specifications.