Parker History-please participate

[Bruce Day]

We all have a gun that we are fond of, it may not be the best, fanciest, costliest or the like, but I have an old Parker that I always bring when I want to be sure. Its a 1911 GHE 12ga, 2frame 30" damascus, nothing special to many. I've posted photos of it before and some I know may be tired of it, but bear with me.

Here are a few photos of the gun, the order book page and a photo of Charles E Tisdall, the sporting goods company owner who ordered the gun. This gun was part of a large order ranging from V grades to high grades, most all 12ga 30", and most were ejectors ordered at $25 extra.

Charles Tisdall is a North America success story. Born in Birmingham England in 1866 to a family of gunsmiths he came to British Columbia Canada at age 22, established a small gunshop and repair business and then reloacated to Vancouver within a few years. Tisdall Sporting Goods became the largest in western Canada and he placed yearly large orders with Parker Brothers. He was the Grand Master Mason and here is a photo of him in regalia. He became mayor of Vancouver and worked to improve and expand that city's lovely park system.

This gun order shows that the Parker gun shipment was by the Burlington Railroad to Chicago then by the Great Northern RR to Vancouver.

Tisdall Sporting Goods is said to have had three tiers of gun racks and ladders on rails. Tisdall is rumored to have been a major supplier of arms to China during the Boxer Rebellion and Chinese are said to have come in from the remote mines with small ingots of silver in payment. Guns would be shipped from Vancouver to China in crates labeled remains to be buried in China.

So this old G sold for $80 plus $25 for the ejectors, $105, a lot of money in 1911 when you could buy lesser guns for $20. A man had to stretch to buy a Parker, maybe still do. I am the third owner and imported it from British Columbia.

So thats the story of this gun. I know many of you have similar stories. You have a respected old gun, a history that you've researched, a story to tell. We put flesh on these old guns, they become special to us, and maybe to future generations.

So, if you have the inclination, can you post photos, a history, a story?

[Matt Michael]

Thats a great story. What was your source for your information? I just bought my first parker and have no idea where to look for the history on it other than looking up the serial number to see when it was made.

[Bruce Day]

If a research letter is available, get it and ask for a copy of the order book page also.

Then Google. The internet search engines are wonderful tools. Ask here also.

Matt, I see where you acquired a rather beat up 0 grade hammer gun. We had a member here who acquired another 0 grade hammer gun, little better condition, got a research letter saying that it was originally ordered by a Denver CO retailer for Charles Springer of Las Vegas, NM. Well in that area of the country they hardly come more famous than Charles Springer, a town is named after him, he was one of the landowners who hired enforcers in the cattlemen/squatter wars, and his 100,000 acre ranch is still in the family and I have met some of his family. So who knows about your gun?

[Bill Murphy]

Bruce is correct in suggesting google and other search engines as well as ancestry.com to try to pick up a name reference. If the gun is identified by name or initials on the gun or in the letter, and is a competition type of gun, I would be willing to assist as would Chris Lien or the Reverend Drew Hause. Another source of name recognition is la84foundation.com. Their search function has helped me to identify many competition shooters and their background. Use the "Sporting Life" option for searching individual magazines. The Griffin and Howe research service is another source of information on original and subsequent gun ownership. Bob Beach at Griffin and Howe is our friend and an avid researcher and is in charge of the research files up there.

[Pete Lester]

"The Journey Begins" In December 1984 I was a 27 year old Captain stationed at Pease AFB NH awaiting transfer to a small radar station in Iceland. It was my turn for a "remote" assignment. (There was some great goose hunting there but that is another story.) I was young and knew very little about Parkers, but they had a mystique about them; this was before the PGCA existed. The most respected gunsmith in the area had a pair of Trojans for sale, a 12ga 28” barrels bored modified and full, and 20ga 28”. Being a duck hunter I was drawn to the 12ga. The day before leaving for Iceland I broke down and purchased the 12ga, 163332, a 1913 gun with a dolls head rib extension. It was in very good condition with about 60% case colors. Duck season was still open so on the morning I was to depart I woke up early and went to an old dairy farm in my home town of Dover that bordered the Bellamy river. It was a cold December 10th and there was a little snow on the ground, the tide was low and as legal shooting time approached I spied a small group of ducks in a narrow brackish channel. The bend in the channel and tall banking would cover my sneak and allowed me to get within 25 yards before they flushed. I brought the Trojan to my shoulder and fired the right barrel, a big Black duck tumbled out of the sky when the 1 ¼ of lead 4’s hit home. I swung to another duck but the gun would not fire. I had never used a gun with two triggers before. It was too late to recover. I walked over and picked up my trophy. While standing there admiring my duck a small group of mallards came into the cove. They were 90 degrees to my position, going left to right at 50 yards or so. There was no time to think, only time to react. I raised the gun to my shoulder still holding the black duck in my left hand. I rested the barrels/forend on my left arm and pulled the back trigger. A big green head dropped out of the sky stone dead. There may have been some luck involved but I walked over to pick up the drake believing everything I had heard about a Parker, it was at that moment a magic shooting wand, and it was mine, I actually owned a Parker. While walking back to my Jeep my thoughts turned to who had used this gun before me, I had a “feeling” it was another duck hunter but had no story or evidence to back it up. I picked up my second duck and went home, leaving the ducks and the gun with my father. While in Iceland I purchased and read Peter Johnson’s and Larry Baer’s books on Parkers, but I still wondered about my Trojan and where it had been. When I came back from Iceland the Trojan was my go to gun for waterfowling until lead was banned. It sat idle for a few years until Bismuth shells came out. Starting in 2000 other Parkers joined it in the gun cabinet but it remained my principle sideby fowler and I enjoyed many a memorable hunt. In 2001 I discovered via internet the PGCA and found I could get a Research letter on my guns. I immediately ordered a letter on my Trojan. When the letter finally arrived I found some basis for my “inkling” the gun had belonged to another duck hunter. My Trojan was ordered in January 1913, it was completed and shipped to the Parker warehouse in June 1913 and then shipped as part of a 25 gun order, all Trojans, to the Walters and Martin Company of Norfolk VA. It sold for $19.00, (a dollar went a long way back then.) I believe the gun most likely started its life shooting fowl on Chesapeake Bay. December 10th seems to be a special day for this gun, in 2001 I was hunting alone on the salt water Cocheco river in Dover, it was a bright sunny day and the action was slow. Suddenly I heard some honking and a lot of it. A big group of Canadas was coming down river and they were hugging my side of the shoreline. The range was about 45 yards and the old Trojan barked twice (I knew how to use two triggers this time) two Canada geese splashed into the river. I had doubled on geese on the 16th anniversary of my first day with this gun. Coincidence, maybe, but I started to wonder if this gun went on it's first hunt on December 10, 1913. Over the course of 23 years use on the brackish waters around Great Bay NH the gun was really showing its age from the wear and tear of salt water hunting. On my 50th birthday in 2007 Scott Kittredge and I went on a “great adventure” and drove 8 hours each way to meet Lawrence and Babe DelGrego. I treated myself to a partial restoration, having the wood and barrels redone but leaving the original case colors alone. A few months later I drove back to Ilion to pick it up. I could not believe it was my gun when Lawrence led me to the vault where my Trojan was laying on the bench. It was proud again and so was I. I am blessed to have several more Parker’s including a couple of “neat” ones but I learned again just recently on a crow shoot that it remains the magic wand I once thought it to be. I knocked down a real tall one, killing it stone dead and watching an incredible long dead fall straight down, with a single shot from the left barrel. There are nicer Parkers in many regards but there is not a better Parker in either performance or the memories it has given me. It was my first Parker and suspect no matter what it will be one of if not my last Parker because there is nothing quite like ones first love is there?

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj57/nhshotgunner/100_0403.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Alot of years ago I wrote a story of the first Parker I ever encountered and it was published in Parker Pages several years ago. That old Trojan has always been very special to me because it was the "touchstone" that drew me to the The Parker Gun.

[Pete Lester]

Alot of years ago I wrote a story of the first Parker I ever encountered and it was published in Parker Pages several years ago. That old Trojan has always been very special to me because it was the "touchstone" that drew me to the The Parker Gun.

Nice story, but wow are you old, no wonder that Trojan was in such good shape, it was practically new :shock:

:rotf:

[Dean Romig]

Ya know... you're right :shock:

It was only about forty-five years old when I hunted with it :o

WOW, I apologize for the first part of that story being so corrupted... I don't know what happened.

[George Lander]

If every old Parker (or any other old double for that matter) could talk what a story they could tell. My favourite mystery Parker is a 20 bore DHE that I purchased at auction from Holt's in London, England. It was built on a "O" frame with 30 inch Titanic Steel barrels, splinter forearm, straight handed stock with chequered butt. SN is 213884. The barrel flats are covered with London proof marks.

The Parker Research Letter contained only the information that my gun was "completed on September 10, 1925. According tp Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 75 it was a DHE hammerless, 20 gauge. It featured Titanic Steel Barrels with a length of 30 inches and 2 5/8 inch chambers. It's stock configuration was straight grip. According to Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 75, it's specifications were: Length of Pull: 15 3/8 inches, Drop at Comb: 1 1/8 inches, Drop at Heel: 3 1/4 inches, weight 6 pounds 8 ounces. The price listed in the January 1, 1925 price list for a DHE Grade was $166.00." According to Mr. Conrad that is all the information that was available on the gun.

Engraved on the oval initial plate on the stock is: "2"
"S.D. McGRAW"
"N.Y."

I would dearly love to find out more about this gun. Who was S.D. McGraw? How did it end up in England & why did it go through proof? I know that there was a professional baseball manager named McGraw with one of the New York teams during the 20's & wonder if this could have been him. I tried Googleing the name but came up with very little. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards, George

[Bruce Day]

George, a great story and sounds like you are asking for help from others. Folks, we need pictures, the stories are wonderful but we want to see your gun and if you have some history photos with it, I think people want to see them.

Probably many of you saw through my post and the timing. I'm only one person here that has a passion for these old Parkers and it seems to me that what we are about is admiring, using, shooting on game and targets, learning about the technology and history of these guns and their times , welcoming to new members , and being kind and respectful to each other. Enough already, show us your guns and tell us about them.

HEY JOHN...I see you are on and I know you have an old gun that is interesting. How about it?

[calvin humburg]

Here is a N grade 10 30" barrels gun weighes 8.8 lbs. cost 70$ shipped 1892 to Schoverling, Daly & Gales New York, NY. Wonder if they ever stamped any LOM cases like there compition?11379

11380 Good idea Bruce. It came from Alaska to Idaho to Kansas that I know.

[Bruce Day]

Bill Murphy, can you tell us what you know about Schoverling, Daly?

Folks, I'll mention it first. Calvin has a new gun on the way. I don't want to say much, I'll leave that to him when he thinks the time is right, but its a nice, no excuses gun. Congrats, Calvin.

[calvin humburg]

It would be easer if you do a search. Hate to type sorry. best ch oops my mind did not process the question right sorry Bruce.

[Bill Murphy]

I have never seen a S D & G marketed Parker stamped with their logo or marketed under their name. However, hundreds of Parkers appear in the Parker Brothers order books as having been ordered by them. Most complete information on S D & G is available on google.com. Some is contradictory, but all is interesting.

[charlie cleveland]

looks like the parker bug has struck again... charlie

[Kevin McCormack]

[I would dearly love to find out more about this gun. Who was S.D. McGraw? How did it end up in England & why did it go through proof? I know that there was a professional baseball manager named McGraw with one of the New York teams during the 20's & wonder if this could have been him. I tried Googleing the name but came up with very little. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Bill Murphy]

The New York baseball manager was John J. McGraw. The research continues.

[Bill Murphy]

George, there are sources of information about the names of people who "rode" on steamships in the early days. Some of those records are interesting reading and may identify your Mr. McGraw.

[Rich Anderson]

I have a CHE 20 with british proof marks. It was shipped from Shanghi China by Thou M Cobbs back to Parker for a stock repair. I wrote about this gun in the latest edition of PP. How it originally got to either England or China is a mystery still.

I also have a GHE 16 trap/skeet with all the options and enhanced engraveing. this was at the end of production and the gun was shipped from Marshall Field to Alex Kerr's of Hollywood for a Major General William Bradford. He was instrumentsal in the atomic bombing of Japan and there is a golf course named for him at the base in AZ (if memory serves) where he was stationed. This is the "Hollywood" gun I use for Sporting Clays.

[Dave Suponski]

I bought this gun many years ago because it was a great grouse and woodcock gun. In my mind the gun was fine for the field but it was "all wrong". After hunting the New England uplands with it for many years my couriosity got the best of me so with the help of Mark Conrad we started looking in the Parker records. Some very interesting things came to life. But I will let the gun tell the story....I was ordered on October 1st.1892 by Mr. LC Clark of Southampton CT and he lived only a few miles from my birth place in Meriden. I was a 12 gauge PH grade gun with 30" barrels built on a light 1 frame. I was a sleek and fast and Mr. Clark got me for a great deal.My list price was $65.00 but they discounted me to $48.00.Mr. Clark and I enjoyed ourselves hunting the woods and fields of Connecticut for some years. My Clark must have liked the Parker Gun because in 1896 he ordered my younger brother a DH grade gun. He was a snob being a D grade and all. I guess my Mr. Clark was the kind of guy that just couldn't leave things alone because in 1899 he sent us both back to Meriden to be restocked! And to make matters worse he had the stock from my snobbish brother put on me! Well I have to tell ya I was pretty upset with Mr. Clark but I was a big boy and in time I got over it. Things kind of settled down for a time and my snob brother and I took turns in the field. Well along came 1912 and Mr. Clark must have heard about those new fangled "black barrels" the Parker brothers were installing on their guns because on August 22 1912 Mr. Clark send me and my brother back to have 16 gauge Titanic Steel barrels fitted to both of us! After Mr. Clark died I was sold to other people from CT and then I ended up with this guy from southern Connecticut who took me out hunting every fall and treats me very well. But for the last couple of years he has been using my little sister a petite little 20 gauge Trojan. He keeps mumbling something about needing a lighter gun because he is getting older. I think we need to have a little talk soon....Anyway he took a few pictures of me for you folks so I hope you enjoy them.

[Dave Suponski]

Oh I almost forgot....When Mr. Clark orderd my snob brother he paid extra for the checkering of his stock cheeks. And my new 16 gauge barrels are choked cylinder and close.

[calvin humburg]

Wouldn't that be cool if you could reunite the brothers.

[Dave Suponski]

Calvin, Or at least the original 12 gauge twist barrels for 68805

[Dean Romig]

Oh, of course... I remember that gun.

...* dum-de-dum-de-dum-dum*...

[Jack Cronkhite]

Engraved on the oval initial plate on the stock is: "2"
"S.D. McGRAW"
"N.Y."

I would dearly love to find out more about this gun. Who was S.D. McGraw? I tried Googleing the name but came up with very little. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards, George

Here's a bit from Google

CHICAGO STOCK EXCHANGE MEMBERS

Name: S.D. McGraw
Admitted: February 19, 1901
Firm: Allen, McGraw and Co.
Members of Firm: R.H. Allen S.D. McGraw
Office: 20 Broad Street, New York

SOURCE (http://www.archive.org/stream/officerscommitte00chicrich/officerscommitte00chicrich_djvu.txt)

New York Stock Exchange Cross Streets:
Wall Street between Broad and New Streets

It's a start. Who knows, but we do have an S.D. McGraw from New York who is a member of the Chicago Stock Exchange with a New York Office not too far from the NYSE at an appropriate time period.

Cheers,
Jack

[George Lander]

Thanks Jack: Another piece of the puzzle perhaps solved.

Best Regards, George

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Gentlemen this is a true story, In 1975 a true Virginia gentleman passed from this world, he was, and is remembered for being a, "Engineer, Industrialist, Philanthropist" He gave over 300 million dollars to education in V.A. Upon his death, as per his wishes, his home place " Chatam was given to the National Park Service. His daughter for some reason was left out of his will, receiving 100,000 dollars and the furnishings in the house at Chatam. Granted that is not a small sum but one must put this into perspective since he died with an estate even after his generosity of 100 million. As the daughter was "cleaning out the house" she found in her fathers upstairs bedroom closet an A&F gun case marked "John Pratt" Also a leg of mutton case. Upon looking into the case she found a Parker shotgun, in the other case a set of barrels and a forend to match, not knowing any thing about such things she consulted with the family lawyer. I will leave some names out in this narrative for obvious reasons. The lawyer was summoned to the house to inspect the findings of the daughter. He consulted with a well known gun dealer and made arrangements for he and his wife to visit the estate to look at the find. The gun dealer told the lawyer he knew wealthy persons that would pay 25,000 for the gun. The lawyer went to the daughter and offered 12,000 for the "find" and it was accepted, imagine that! By the way I have copies of all this correspondence including a copy of the lawyers check! The gun languished in the hands of the lawyer untill a Chicago Buick dealer purchased it. In the late 1999 I got a call and was asked if I would be interested in looking at and possibly purchasing the gun. I said yes. The gun and extra barrels were driven 1200 miles to my location, "the owner would not ship it and I did not blame him" When the time came for inspection of the piece I was as nervous as a xxxxxx in church. I had never held something that was as beautiful and made by man in my hands! Crunch time came and it resulted a phone call to my wife, explaining why I was about to spend our retirement money for " a damned old shotgun" All went well and I came away custodian of this fine piece. Now for the details, Gun- Parker A-1 Special 30" splinter forend, Extra barrels 26" Beavertail forend never fired! both 12ga. Gun was given to Mr John Pratt on his retirement from General Motors Dec 19, 1935. I was custodian of this fine piece of American craftsmanship for several years. I parted with it in 2006. I know the new owner, and I do not know who he is, is very proud. So the moral of this story, yes Virginia, there are closets with Parkers in them out there. For Photo's go to The Parker Story Volume two page 647,648,649. I am proud to have been it's keeper for a while. Gary Carmichael

[Dean Romig]

Gary, thanks for that bit of Parker history. So many of these stories are never told and the stories often die with those who could have told them. We don't need to know the names... names are generally inconsequential, but the history and mystique are what most of us live for - along with the provocative 'teaser' that they are still out there.

Dean

[George Lander]

" THE FIRST THING WE MUST DO IS TO KILL ALL THE LAWYERS " William Shakespere. GREAT STORY BTW!

Best Regards, George

[Pete Lester]

" THE FIRST THING WE MUST DO IS TO KILL ALL THE LAWYERS " William Shakespere. GREAT STORY BTW!

Best Regards, George

Look out Mr. Kaas, they may be after you :)

[Ed Blake]

Great story Gary. I looked at the gun in TPS. Hard to believe the gun remains unfired. I could never be a collector of high grade stuff because I would have shot it.

[Jack Cronkhite]

I too have Philistinic tendencies. Museum pieces are not my thing, that's for sure. If I could afford such a piece and it is to be preserved un-fired, then my inclination would be to donate to somewhere like the NRA Museum, for more than just me to admire. But... I can't afford something like that, so further fictitious speculation is moot.

Now, the Bard of Avon, who descended from a family of spearmen [Shake (brandish) Spear] dating back to the 1200's, wrote plays. His poetic nature still shewed his origins through his words. But, is his lawyer assertion correct? In fact, it is not his assertion, rather words put into the mouth of a character, Jack Cade. Cade was a real person in history who may or may not have been accurately depicted by Shakespeare, a master of poetic licence. (e.g. it made a much better piece of theater to kill Julius Caesar on the steps of the Senate of Rome than in the Theater of Pompey where it most likely occurred) - more dramatic and did not require funds for carpenters to build another set. In Shakespeare's Henry VI, Jack Cade was depicted as a leader of peasants with a fear of educated persons as traitors. He saw himself as the rightful heir to the throne of England. His word was to be law with no need for a legislature. A man who could write and sign his own name, rather than use a mark, was a prime subject for execution by Cade. So..... it is well within the depicted character of Jack Cade to want to kill all lawyers.

I am not now, nor have I ever been a lawyer but have had dealings with them over many decades. Like the population in general, there are good guys, bad guys and downright evil guys. I always liked the Roy Rogers show. It was easy to understand - a white hat was a good guy and a black hat was not going to triumph by the end of the show. But life isn't as clear as black and white.

Now the lawyer in Gary's story qualifies as a "bad guy". Too bad Roy didn't have a chance to chat with him.

As for killing, I see that as a non-vegetarian's necessity for the purpose of nourishing the body with some source of animal protein - even if that were to require the use of a previously unfired gun, which would make other unfireds slightly more valuable to some.

I assume that even the "unfireds" were fired at the factory when patterned, so the term is a misnomer. How does one tell if an "unfired" gun saw a couple shots outside the factory???? Not a rhetorical question.

Cheers,
Jack

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

Calvin: You sure are taking good care of that N grade 10 Ga. I really miss the old girl. I don't know if I told you but I traded a L.C. Smith specialty grade 12 Ga. for that gun and never regretted it and that was back min the 1980's. Thomas

[George Lander]

Hello Jack: The phrase, as you stated, from Shakespere's Henry VI was actually uttered by a character called "Dick the Butcher" who was a henchman of Jack Slade. Since Roy is no longer with us perhaps Steven Segal could do the honours.

Best Regards, George

[Jack Cronkhite]

Good morning George: Thanks. You get an A+. High School was a long way back:whistle::whistle:

Segal works for me. Does he have a white hat?

My remembering of Shakespeare may be fading somewhat; however, I do remember the sacrifices made so that we might enjoy the freedoms we have. On this Remembrance Day, a humble thanks to all vets and those serving.

Cheers,
Jack

[George Lander]

Jack: You are right on. The HEROES, both living and those who have gone on, of all the Armed Services are the folks that our kids should be looking up to and admiring, instead of the "Hollyweird" and MTV crowd.

Best Regards, George

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Guys back to the A1 special, the gun was used and only the 26" barrels with beavertail forend was not fired. Gary

[Jack Cronkhite]

Still curious how one proves or disproves "unfired" (after factory). Obvious after many shots, but what about a few and proper cleaning?
Cheers,
Jack

[Rich Anderson]

If a gun has been fired even only once there will be evidence of that around the firing pin and on the breech face. How you can seperate a set of bbls as unfired VS fired I couldn't say.

[calvin humburg]

Thomas,

It hasen't changed much got a phesant double with the ol light 10 last year second one lifted after I shot the 1st one. It's my tradin stock he he just can't trade it. My 1st nice parker. Craig wants to do the barrels, may some time just a light reblack. One day Bruce showed me how much better grease is than oil on it. I'm now a greaser. ch that would be it to the left with Gentleman Bob oz. 1/8 of 6.

[Ray Masciarella]

Unfired must be some type of term of art since no gun is really "unfired". These days the barrels on new guns have been greased so if it hasn't been removed I guess it's unfired. How did Parker ship guns? Did it coat the barrels with anything? If so and it's still there, then I guess it was "unfired".

Ray

[Pete Lester]

Dean Romig HAD an unfired 16ga hammer gun a couple of years ago, then he brought it to the New Years Day fun shoot and left it in the gun rack. He still has a not fired too much 16ga hammer gun. :rotf:

[calvin humburg]

Opps

[charlie cleveland]

what happened that day to the unfired hammer gun.... charlie

[Pete Lester]

what happened that day to the unfired hammer gun.... charlie

I seem to recall someone we all know "borrowed" it for awhile :)

[charlie cleveland]

at least dean knows now that the old gun will shoot...would be a burden going through life not knowing whether your gun will shoot or not.... charlie

[Dean Romig]

Dean Romig HAS an unfired 16ga hammer gun. He brought it to the New Years Day fun shoot and left it in the gun rack so we all could enjoy seeing and handling it.


I hope nobody minds that I edited Pete's post to reflect what really happened that day. It never was fired that day or any other day for that matter nor will it ever be while it is in my vigilant posession.

There are a number of people who have examined it and it was in fact, featured alongside Charlie Green's unfired Grade 2 twelve gauge hammer gun in a recent issue of Parker Pages.

[calvin humburg]

Opps