Who is the Winchester engraver?? Help

[Jared Valeski]

I recently pulled this very early Winchester factory engraved Pigeon Grade Model 1912 out for a good cleaning. I would like some help trying to nail down who the engraver was. Produced in 1917 if that helps. Has some characteristics of an Ulrich job but also some traits of Gough. Perhaps neither? All thoughts are appreciated.
Jared V

[John Dallas]

I'm betting it's something like Fukashima. Looks like a non-orginaal aftermarket job to me.

[Jared Valeski]

Nope. Its a real one. If you have Dave Riffle's book on the model 12 look especially at page 19. Just having trouble nailing down the engraver without buying R.L. Wilson's book on the subject. Thought maybe someone here with the knowledge of Winchester Engravers of this era could help without the uninformed smart ass jabs. I know my pictures aren't the best.
JJV

[Bill Murphy]

Jared, that is one beautiful Winchester. They look like Ulrich ducks, but the engraving pattern is not the standard prewar Pigeon Grade pattern. I have a pair of prewar Ulrich Pigeon Grades in the standard pattern, but your gun is not like that except for the ducks. Maybe Pauline Muerrle could take a look. She offers a Winchester engraving authentication service. paulinemuerrle.com I would buy your gun to keep my two company, but I'm sure you have other plans. By the way, sorry about your pup.

[Jared Valeski]

Thanks Bill. I want to take some better pictures and I will certainly email them to Ms. Muerrle. I forgot to mention that it is a two barrel set. Actually in Riffle's book, he pictures a never assembled, in the white receiver with an almost identical pattern as my gun. Mr. Riffle does not mention, however, who the engraving is attributed to.
JJV

[charlie cleveland]

very nice engraving who ever done it...very nice.... charlie

[Jared Valeski]

Ms. Pauline was very quick with a reply and to my great pleasure informed me that the engraving was definetly done by John Gough who was employed by Winchester only until 1918. Is this the same Gough of the A.H. Fox factory engravers?

[Mark Landskov]

Jared, have you considered a 'letter' from the Cody Museum? I know they ended up with a lot of factory records, from different makers, when public demand for authentication became overwhelming. You certainly do have a nice Winchester!

[Jared Valeski]

Mark,
Thanks for the suggestion. There is limited information available from Cody on the gun that I have. No mention of the engraver but I don't think there were too many early pigeon grades produced.
JJV

[Stephen Hodges]

I believe for a fee Pauline will write a letter for you.

[Francis Morin]

The time line for the 1912 to 12 roll stamping change was mid-1919, one of WRA's many "running changes" - w/o the sn- which are not 100% accurate anyway, especially following the semi-chaos of the post WW1 production era at WRA--!! the black diamond inset, and the pigeon for the pigeon grade at the top rearmost upper receiver section is correct-for 1918, also, the first series - aka- old milled style ventilated ribs were not available until about 1920-21 era- so the solid matted rib is also correct--

I also agree with the Gough- as his style was the deep incised favored by many engravers who did the apprenticeship with the 1880-1900 era "masters"- yes, it is my understanding that Mr. Gough was employed by AH Fox Gun Co. in Phila- then left to work for WRA until about 1918--I am not a "Foxist" but if you were to pose this question on their collectors assn. forum website thingy-and asked for examples of the early "graded' Fox guns as engraved by Mr. Gough- and then could compare that with the same grades done later- in the late 1920's- you would see the difference.

No Jap company or engraver could do this kind of work- they can copy- look at their 'iron-on" engraving on the Parker repros and compare- if you dare- that to the engraving done on the pre-1913 LC Smiths or DH(E) and up grade Parkers built from 1890 to 1925, just to pick a few reference points-

Your M1912 is original, scarce, and not only a treasure- but you can actually shoot and kill birds and clays "tombstone dead" with it, and so can you grandson, should you have one and care to leave it to him. Please don't even consider selling it-:cool::cool::cool:

[Francis Morin]

I'm betting it's something like Fukashima. Looks like a non-orginaal aftermarket job to me. Let me guess- you also picked the tigers to win the World Series- and the lions to repeat the Dolphins 1972 win/loss record this 16 game season-- This is the real deal, the gent who owns it is indeed fortunate- Model 12's- and model 1912's like this come along about as often as an honest politician runs for and wins an office--:banghead::banghead::banghead::cuss::cuss::cuss::c uss:

[Jared Valeski]

The letter from Pauline is in the works.

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, no need to criticize posters who do not know. Internet readers know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, just from reading an entire thread rather than the single post of a self proclaimed "authority". I'm sure Mr. D. will refrain from appraisals of valuable Winchesters in the future. By the way, this will be my last reply to you until further notice. I must have been struck by lightning. By the way, this was your best and most pertinent post on any gun site in months.

[Francis Morin]

Francis, no need to criticize posters who do not know. Internet readers know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, just from reading an entire thread rather than the single post of a self proclaimed "authority". This will be my last reply to you until further notice. promises, promises, promises. I haven't been a Winchester guy since third grade, got my first Winchester at age 11- 20 gauge M12. I also have Dave Riffle's book, the Madis book, the Stadt book and tons of other now op WRA: catalogues, reference books, salesman's handbooks, etc-

Granted, this is a Parker forum, and not the Winchester Model 1912 and Model 12 Collectors Assn. Forum-BUT- a member who has a very fine Model 1912 Black Diamond Pigeon Grade posts a legitimate question that can be answered by some research- why should anyone demean his "Perfect Repeater", vis a vis the "Yaka-saki' inference. I won a Japanese Browning Model 12 "repro" 20 gauge- 28" mod. fioxed choke, ventilated rib at a DU Sponsor event, many years ago- I sold it back to Jay Poet in Clare, the supplier to the DU Event Cmte- I never even took it out of the box- It was a Model 12 like a Trojan grade is an AAHE--only by commonality of nomenclature- And none of the tools in my Kennedy and Gerstner tool chests were made in the land of the "Rising Sun' either-

I may not know Model 1912's and Model 12's as well as all other gentlemen on the PGCA, but I will bet you a "steel trap" from brother Dean Romig that I know them better that the majority of them. This M1912 is the "real deal" and to insult it with a 'after market Japanese re-do' is an Infamita!!:bigbye::bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

I did proclaim your post to be a good one. Oh my God, I have been struck by lightning again, twice in two days. Did I tell that fellow that I would buy his gun, at his price?

[Jared Valeski]

Bill, price is a secondary consideration on an early factory engraved Model 1912 as good as mine.:cool:

[Francis Morin]

I did proclaim your post to be a good one. Oh my God, I have been struck by lightning again, twice in two days. Did I tell that fellow that I would buy his gun, at his price? Now it's time to "Man Up" and get out the old checkbook. But not to worry, I advised the gentleman here who is lucky to own this "Steinway" of shotguns NOT to sell it. So you are "Off de hook", as it were.

I now own 8 model 1912's-model 12's combined. I found a 1916 era M1912 20 gauge- 25" Mod. (Full was std) solid rib field gun in very good shape- of course, it has the 2.5" chambering, so RST shells will be the 'shell de jour" for it-came with the older canvas break-down case, cleaning rod (3 pc. wood with brass ferrules-) and should be great "second Grandson starter gun- as Jordy gets the other M12- the 20 made in 1931- 38" mod--the one my father and grandfather gave me on my 11th B'day-- got to continue the legacy of the "Perfect repeaters"--:bigbye::bigbye::cool::p

[John Dallas]

Not Japanese? Hmmm. Am I now obligated to commit hari kari on a rusty M12 Op Rod?

[Bruce Day]

I have my grandfather's old Win Mod 1912 but in college I let a Japanese classmate shoot it. Its not for sale either.

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, I have probably been collecting and shooting Winchester pump guns as long as I have the Parkers. One piece of information that may interest you is that the short chambered 20 gauges generally digest and feed 2 3/4" ammunition quite well. The short chambered 16s are a little fussy and generally require short shells to function reliably.

[charlie cleveland]

bill thanks for the info...ive looked at a couple 20 ga model 12 s lately this info will help me out.... charlie

[Francis Morin]

Hey Charlie- Ibill thanks for the info...ive looked at a couple 20 ga model 12 s lately this info will help me out.... charlie I have about 200 AA 12 and Rem RST empties for you- I wanted another 20 with the earlier "perch belly- stock, and the price on the 1916 Model 1912 was very right- the 1931 M12 20 (marked 2 & 3/4" on mag extension area) that my late father bought new then, and gave to me on my 11th birthday (1952) also has that style- post 1934-35 went to the later style grip and fluted tang area. I like the smaller in dia semi-pistol grip of the earlier (1912-1934) Model 1912's and Model 12's--

Never owned a 16 gauge M12- did have a 16 gauge M1897 made in about 1948- 28" mod- fine pheasant gun, today- where I live and hunt/shoot- 16's are as scarce as honest politicans in D.C.--so I stay mainly with the 12's--

How durable is a Model 12 pumpgun- out this morning with a friend in farmer's corn for ducks and geese- dawn came like a piece of writing from Nash Buckingham-- a few mallards and woodies started moving- we didn't bother with dekes- just hid in the strip of standing corn-- dropped a few ducks first- geese are later risers, and there was scant frost on the fields this AM-- my pal is an avid reloader for steel- he had some heavy steel No. 2 in 3" cases he had reloaded-- so when we heard the geese moving, we switched to his heavier loads- I had my M12 Duck- 30" full (removed some of the lead from the butt cavity and use a slip-over butt pad until the late Winter season opens-- he has a multi-buck Browning Gold autoloader that will handle 2 & 3/4" and or 3" interchangeably -- His shells were a bit swollen, but they worked fine in my M12- two dead honkers on the deck (daily limit here)--3 shells- 20 yard incoming over the corn tops- my favorite goose hunting scenario-- we had to remove the barrel to free the jammed fired hull stuck in his Browning (always carry a Leatherman tool afield)--I gave him some of my heavy 2 &3/4" Black cloud loads, and they worked fine in his autoloader-and he also took two geese-- point is- any good pump (or great pumpgun, as is the M12) will function with just about any kind of shell- they came out in the paper shell era-and they point like Darth Vader with his lazer-sword- death and doom- for certain (if you do your part):bigbye::bigbye:

[Francis Morin]

The letter from Pauline is in the works. I'd like to get in touch with her--thanks:bigbye:

[Francis Morin]

[quote=John Dallas;53393]Not Japanese? Hmmm. Am I now obligated to commit hari kari on a rusty M12 Op Rod?[/quote-- I have two separate bets on the World Series- (1) it will go the full 7 games (Winner) (2) The Cards will win it (not done yet)- plus I had a red letter AM hunt- Op Rod- sounds like a M-1 Garand or a M-14- takes me back to the USMC Armory-- Not familiar with many Jap military weapons- The Ariska BA rifles and the Nambu pistols- so if they had a autoloader that used a op. rod to link the gas piston to the bolt and roller group, I am not aware of that fact.

John- I need you to please understand- I am very "Old School" on the - you make your $ in America, you buy 100% American (with the possible exception of Irish Whiskey and beers, also German Beers)--and my favorite bumper sticker that I have seen so far (at age 70 and closing) reads like this- 'Shop At Wally_Mart- where all of America buys its cheap Chink-made Crap"--

That beautiful Model 1912 Black Diamond Pigeon Grade 12 bore is a very original and rare shotgun, at least- IMO. But I do thank you for the "memory jog" re: op rod-- In the detailed article I recently wrote about the Model 12 (that will not appear in a future issue of PP, and rightly not so) I forgot to mention the ill-fated "Dog-Leg" style op rod that causes WRA beaucoup problems from 1951- to 1954. WRA recalled all the M12's they could that had this "beancounter designed part"- they were such that the recoil that dis-engages the bolt lock-up into battery did not always function reliably- but the original straight op rod did- so they went back to that design- Thanks For The Memories!!!:whistle::whistle::whistle::whistle:

[Dave Noreen]

Harry Gough was an engraver at Parker Bros., and chief engraver of the engraving department from 1887 to 1898. Harry's sons John A. (Jack) Gough and William H. Gough apprenticed under him. William H. Gough took over running the engraving department from his Father in 1899, and ran it until 1911, when he left to head up the engraving department at the A.H. Fox Gun Co. All the while William H. Gough was running the engraving department at A.H. Fox Gun Co. he generally only did the highest grade guns, and spent most of his engraving time on high-end commission work from Winchester, Colt, Marlin, etc. When the Godshalk's sold out the gun business to Savage, William H. Gough went to Utica. Savage management apparently didn't like his doing commission work from competitors in their factory, so he moved his engraving business to town and operated independently into the 1950s.

P.S. Great old Model 12!!! I'll give you $50 more than Murphy!!!

[Jared Valeski]

Great info Dave. Any knowledge of where John Gough was employed after he left Winchester in 1918?
Jared V

[Dave Noreen]

As far as I know, the collector most knowlegable on the Gough family is Tom Wyraz at Fox River Sporting --

http://www.foxriversporting.com/about-us/

[Richard Flanders]

This engraved M12 is a very nice item and the thread has been educational. I think it is illegal at some level for a serious shotgun guy to NOT own at least one M12 in their shooting/collecting career. My dad bought us one when I was 12... a mint condition 20ga... for all of $45! Hell, I had just paid $35 for my Mossberg .22 bolt gun. $45 for a M12? Unbelievable even then. Unfortunately, someone eventually stole it out of the back seat my Chevy II, while it was parked in our driveway if you can believe that.

[charlie cleveland]

to bad about your gun...what year was the chevy 2.... charlie

[Don Kaas]

I am Dave came by and sorted out the Goughs so I didn't have to...some folks don't know one Gough from another but they can certainly give plenty of it...

I have the 28" full 16g M12 in its canvas breakdown case that my grandfather, Thomas P. Kaas (USA 3rd Div. 1917-1919) bought new in 1939. I plan to give the gun to my cousin's son, Lt. Kerr (USMA 2010) when he gets back from Afghanistan (see below, leading his squad near Kunduz) so he can have his great grandfather's gun...I also have a 30" solid rib 16ga and two 32" solid rib Heavy Ducks...they probably belonged to other people' grandfathers, too

[Bill Murphy]

Will Francis be celebrating Thanksgiving in Palm?

[Don Kaas]

Not bloody likely, mate.

[charlie cleveland]

the LT. KERRis a lucky man to begiven his great grandfathers gun...i have my great grandfathers old single barreland believe me its a tresure to me...charlie