QUESTION OF VALUE

[George Lander]

Since I have never owned one I want to ask the members here a question. I have an opportunity to purchase a VHE .410 with 26 inch barrels and a ball grip in average well used but well cared for condition. What would be the members ideas be on a fair price to offer. The seller has no idea as to his gun's value. It was passed down through the family. SN is 237xxx. Also, would the information for a letter exist for this gun?

Best Regards, George

[Don Kaas]

Go to PGCA Home on the toolbar above and click on Research Letter and you can see if records are available...

[Harry Collins]

George,

A similar late Remington 410 VHE with Cyanide colors and checkered side pannels in what could have been factory or a DelGrego restoration sold for about $8,000 at auction. I know the Dr that purchased it and he told me that he turned it over for $15,000 and the last he saw it was on the internet with $25,000 being asked!

Harry

[George Lander]

Thanks Don & Harry: The research letter site indicates that there are surviving records & so I'll order them if I make the deal.

Best Regards, George

[Destry L. Hoffard]

If it's worth $25,000 then George will have it on his website for $50,000 next week. *wink*

Destry

[John Dunkle]

I have to say - the sub-gauge Parker market is simply amazing... Most of the .410s out there in unmolested condition go for crazy prices. A quick glance around at some of the asking prices has my eyes pop out a bit :)

Anyway - when I was programming this new forum - I used a picture of my .410 as a test (image below). The specific are as V grade, straight grip, factory beavertail, single Parker trigger, twin beads, checkered butt, etc. It's pretty well optioned. Since owning it - I'm guessing that the market has nearly doubled, as I could have sold this Parker for nearly twice what I paid for it? I dun'no - it seems like a pretty crazy market for .410s - and no, mine isn't for sale - just an indication of your question as to "value"?

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=11

Love to see pics of yours if you make the deal!!

Best to you,

John

[Dean Romig]

Just a note to those who care or are interested . . . John's .410 actually does have ejectors too. I guess he had forgotten that little tidbit :rolleyes:

And John, the market hasn't gone quite that crazy in just two short years - you simply got that .410 at a terrific price. :cool:

[John Dunkle]

Shouldn't you be on your way to Maryland??? :D

I thought I could sneak one by you - and yes - I should have written "VHE" in my description... As for a "terrific price".. It was a HORRENDOUS PRICE according to my much better half (wife ;) ).. But - I like that little .410 and after she shot it - she still thought it was a HORRENDOUS PRICE - but a "cute little gun".. :eek:

Best to you Dean!!

John

[Dean Romig]

Still sittin' here at my desk at work waiting for Kathy's crippled car to be released from surgery :cuss:

[John Dunkle]

When are you headed down - this evening or tomorrow (just trying to figure out when it's "safe" to post what I was offered for my .410 ;) )?

Seriously - have a GREAT TRIP and be safe!

John

[Robin Lewis]

George

On Oct. 6th, James Julia is going to have three Parker 410's up for auction. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll post the selling prices for you. If you go to their web site and look them up and you are armed with the sales price, you may get an fair idea of the ball park value of the one you are looking at.

[Dean Romig]

We're headed to Ct this evening to stay with Larry & Deb then leaving for Md in the a.m.

The car was just released . . . see ya.

[John Dunkle]

Here is the link:
http://www.jamesdjulia.com/

and to search for the 410s
http://www.jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_278_search.asp

When it opens - enter:
Parker 410
into the search box and click SEARCH.

And the highlights (the estimated prices do NOT include any premiums/commissions):
*VERY RARE LATE PARKER GHE GRADE SMALL BORE SIDE-BY-SIDE SHOTGUN. SN 239263. Cal. 410. 26" bbls with matted tapered concave rib, sgl silver sighting bead, 3" chambers, IMP.Cyl.MOD chokes, ejectors and sgl selective trigger.........(25,000-40,000)

*RARE SMALL BORE PARKER VHE SKEET GUN. SN 238282. Cal. 410. 26" bbls, matted tapered concave rib, dual ivory sighting beads, with ivory missing from front sight, 3" chambers, Skeet In/Skeet Out, ejectors and sgl selective trigger.........(20,000-25,000)

*TURNBULL RESTORED PARKER VHE GRADE SMALL BORE SIDE-BY-SIDE SHOTGUN. SN 233269. Cal. 410. 26" bbls, tapered matted concave rib with sgl silver sighting bead, 3" chambers, MOD/MOD chokes, ejectors and double triggers........ (15,000-25,000)

Thanks Robin!!

:cheers:

John

[George Lander]

John: This one is a VHE with 26 inch barrels and a BALL GRIP! I wonder how many had that configuration?

Destry: I think that I've made the deal and yes you may be right!

Best Regards, George

[John Dunkle]

John: This one is a VHE with 26 inch barrels and a BALL GRIP! I wonder how many had that configuration?...

I dun'no George? I guess a BALL GRIP will add as much value as the buyer is willing to pay for it? How many BALL GRIPS were made - I have no idea. How many .410s were made in a "custom configuration"? I don't know that either. And frankly - I don't really care (sorry to be a dark cloud).

As for me? I bought my .410 'cause I liked it and it seemed like I could afford it at the time. And I bought it to shoot it, 'cause it handled well for me. And yes - I do shoot it. I shoot all my Parkers. I let anyone who is interested in Parkers shoot any of my Parkers.

Value? It's "worth" what you are willing to pay for it. Nothing more. Nothing less. In short - I don't know much more about the .410 you posted about to give you a "VALUE" - 'cept it has a ball grip, isn't a skeet, has 26" barrels, is serialized to "237xxx"?

If you get it and close the deal - good for you! We'd love to hear about what it is - along with pictures and other options besides the BALL GRIP.

Best to you,

John

[Dave Suponski]

John...I can attest to that. I remember one very cold Jan. day when you let Danny shoot that .410. He's been after me ever since to get one :shock:

[John Dunkle]

I believe you also shot the first vent-ribbed (AAHE) trap Parker ever made... You did my great-grandfather proud... I'm thinking we all did. As in my world - shooting them is what it's all about...

Edit - and since Dean is off-line... ;)

and... "Mr. Moose Ears" (given his hat for the day :D ) shot a DAM 20 GA Parker (which is a Parker "Show Gun") at a round of skeet.. And Scott tried to "borrow" it for his gun safe - after he shot it better than I did (which wasn't dificult ;).??

JD

[scott kittredge]

hi,are we going to do it again this jan 1st ? should be warmer !!! scott

[John Dunkle]

I'd be up for it!!!

BTW - you do promise it will be warmer, right??? If it's not - you owe me...

;)

JD

[Dave Suponski]

Why! I thought it was just fine....:rolleyes:

[John Dunkle]

Why! I thought it was just fine....:rolleyes:"I'll have a glass of whatever he is drinking..."

;)

JD

[John Dunkle]

"..Price Check on Aisle #4..." ;)

Hi George!

I don't know if you saw this - but there is one on Guns International (VH, Ball Grip, 26", SN #227322....)... Asking price is $31K..?? .. Anyway - if you go here:

http://www.gunsinternational.com and search "Parker 410" - it should pop up for you?

Just another data point for you...

:cheers:

John

[Francis Morin]

As the late J.P. "aka- The Nose" Morgan once replied when asked about the price of a yacht- if you have to ask, you can't afford one-- That being said, and because there is a wealth (no pun intended here John) of market knowledge about all Parkers on this Forum, let me pose this one- Take three DHE optioned Parkers- a .410, a std. 10 2 & 7/8" chambers and a 12 gauge 3" Waterfowling model- single selective trigger, pistol grip capped, skeleton steel buttplate- and all in 90% original and unaltered condition-

Ranking them in order of scarcity and market value, which one would place first, then second and then third. For what it is worth in passing, I know which one I would choose if that option were made available, and I had the funds--

I have never owned or shot a .410 in my 60 plus years of shotgunning, started out with a 20 gauge single shot. But I am NOT a skeet shooter, nor do I have quail or dove to hunt. I once read that "Ike" used a Model 42 for quail at times, I am sure in the hands of an expert shot the .410 is fine, and they do have fine lines. But wow- the market demand for them is amazing!

Best of luck and safe driving to all attending the Vintagers-!!:

[John Dunkle]

I have to say, Francis - I actually agree with you.. That's a personal statement, though - as I also understand (and respect) those who collect, whereby it's the "uniqueness" of the configuration that sets the "value"? In other words, as you correctly note, I think we all "place higher value" on those attributes we are seeking - based on whether we want to "collect" the firearm or "shoot" the firearm (or have that particular firearm in our vault for whatever reason). I don't think they are mutually exclusive - either.

For example - I have a nice, well used - sure isn't pretty - beavertail VHE 26" 20GA with a repaired stock. But you know what - when I head out for the morning and the dew is on the grass and I'm making my way through the pucker-brush - I wouldn't sell it for 10x what it's worth to a collector, as it's never let me down. I value that Parker as much as I do that little .410, or any of my Parkers - just for different reasons, if you know what I mean?

I guess that's one of the reasons I was a little circumspect in my reply about the "value" of a ball grip (.."..I guess a BALL GRIP will add as much value as the buyer is willing to pay for it?....And frankly - I don't really care (sorry to be a dark cloud)...."..? I still don't know that "value" either?? It's worth whatever someone is willing to pay, based on their own personal reasons.

Seems like you and me see eye to eye on a lot of stuff. And for that, if you make it East this season - we'll get you going on those partridge and pheasants. And yep - you can shoot that little "cute gun". I'd be honored if you did, as it's what it is all about...

Best to you!

John

[Dave Suponski]

Francis.. As far as scarcity a DHE (steel barrels) 10 gauge would have to rank first and I would think that a 12 gauge DHE 3" would rank second. The only trouble with ranking a 3" 12 is that Parker/Remington only noted chamber length on the hang tags and order/stock books. Finally a DHE .410 would rank last as far as scarcity is concerned.

Value? The .410 is the top of the list.

Let me check the Parker Story to see if I can come up with some hard numbers.

I,m outta here tomorrow at zero dark thirty for Maryland. :bigbye:

[George Lander]

John: It's hard to believe what those little devils sell for. I just thought that a ball grip on a .410 Parker might be a little unique. I'm going to try and make a deal for the gun & if I do I'll post pictures & description.

Best Regards, George

[Dave Suponski]

According to the "Parker Story" there are 45 10ga. DH guns with Titanic barrels. And there are 60 DH .410 guns with Titanic barrels.

Like I mentioned before there are 6,330 DH guns in 12 ga. How many have 3" chambers. Who knows....

[Francis Morin]

Francis.. As far as scarcity a DHE (steel barrels) 10 gauge would have to rank first and I would think that a 12 gauge DHE 3" would rank second. The only trouble with ranking a 3" 12 is that Parker/Remington only noted chamber length on the hang tags and order/stock books. Finally a DHE .410 would rank last as far as scarcity is concerned.

Value? The .410 is the top of the list.

Let me check the Parker Story to see if I can come up with some hard numbers.

I,m outta here tomorrow at zero dark thirty for Maryland. :bigbye:Just what I thought, in my learning curve on Parker market values- I would take a DHE std. 10 gauge with 32" barrel;s No. 2 frame choked Imp. Mod and Full as my "dream gun" as I am serious waterfowler-and RST has certainly made shooting a std. 10 gauge a reality today. The .410 "mystifies me"- aren't there both a 2.5" and a 3" chambering ( as on the M42?) Were all the Remington era Parker skeet guns (mainly VHE I believe) made with 3" chambers, so the owner could shoot either length shell at his option!

[John Dunkle]

John: It's hard to believe what those little devils sell for. I just thought that a ball grip on a .410 Parker might be a little unique. I'm going to try and make a deal for the gun & if I do I'll post pictures & description.

Best Regards, George

You had better post pics if you get that little devil..!! :) Seriously - again - I can check the Parker Story, BUT - I don't know if they break out grip types? I'll check tonight when I get home, OK?? Also - if you are interested, you can PM me - I'll share with you what I was offered for mine recently (but, I'd rather shoot it then sell it ;) ) if it helps with your negotiations?

Best to you!

John

[John Dunkle]

....I,m outta here tomorrow at zero dark thirty for Maryland. :bigbye:
Drive safe, buddy! And OH - TAKE PICTURES, OK???

Best to you Dave - and thanks for all you do!

John

[Dave Suponski]

John,Danny is in charge of the picture takin..He,s pretty good at it.

[John Dunkle]

If he takes pictures the same way he shoots that .410 - I have no doubt he is good at it... ;) Give Danny my best, OK? As well - if we do the Jan 1 thing again - will he be coming??

Best to you!

JD

[Destry L. Hoffard]

A 10 gauge on a #2 frame is about as useful as tits on a boar in my opinion. You couldn't shoot heavy waterfowling loads in it, it would beat you to death. I've got one on a #3 frame and it still kicks like a mule with 3 1/2 inch shells. I'd imagine a #2 with heavy 2 7/8 shells would be just as bad or worse.

Remington marked a lot of the 3 inch 12 gauge guns on the barrel lug. Makes them pretty easy to spot. Plus the barrels on at least some of them have an odd contour to add meat to the chambers so that's another quick tell. I hear there's one for sale at the Vintagers with a heavy price tag if anybody wants to check it out and give a report.


Destry

[Dave Suponski]

Destry,I will have to take a look at it. Who has it? Those 3" chambered 12's aren,t too hard to spot but you can,t really look for em going by serial number you kinda have to have them in hand.

John, I don't think he would miss it! Ha had a great time last year :duck:

[Francis Morin]

A 10 gauge on a #2 frame is about as useful as tits on a boar in my opinion. You couldn't shoot heavy waterfowling loads in it, it would beat you to death. I've got one on a #3 frame and it still kicks like a mule with 3 1/2 inch shells. I'd imagine a #2 with heavy 2 7/8 shells would be just as bad or worse.

Remington marked a lot of the 3 inch 12 gauge guns on the barrel lug. Makes them pretty easy to spot. Plus the barrels on at least some of them have an odd contour to add meat to the chambers so that's another quick tell. I hear there's one for sale at the Vintagers with a heavy price tag if anybody wants to check it out and give a report.


Destry Thanks Destry- I get shots on mallards and Canadas under 25 (est'd) yards- But let's take a 1 & 3/8 load of either steel or non-toxic shot- push it at the same fps. through a .730" dia tube, then move it up to an 11 gauge (.750) and then to a true 10 gauge (.775")- just as moving fluids through a pipe, the larger the I.D. of that pipe (with appropriate wall thickness) the more eficient the flow- comparing liquids to modern plastic wads and buffered loads is not "apples to apples" of course, but still--

If I were lucky enough to own a ejector 10 Parker with 32" steel barrels (regardless of frame size- the number 2 was arbitrary) I would shoot in it custom loads comparable to a 3" 12 magnum. I only use the 3" 12 loads in the late Winter "bonus season" when the geese have heavier "armor plating". But I will yield to your expertise in the 10 bore realm, Suh- as I never have owned one (yet)--

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Dave,

I just heard that it was there, no idea who's got it.


DLH

[Harry Collins]

Destry is correct about 10 gauge shells through a #2 frame. I shot a round of sporting clays with 1 1/4 oz loads through my #2 frame 10 gage lifter Parker and it wore me out. I swore I would never do that again. A hundred shots of 1 1/8 oz through the #2 frame is a dream, however, and makes the old girl a pleasure to shoot all day long. The duck and goose blind is another story when you are only going to shoot a half a box of shells (I'm thinking the old box of 25 here boys). You hardly feel the thing go off, but of course 1 1/4 oz @ 1200 fps is a hell of alot different than 2 oz @ 1350 fps.

Harry

[George Lander]

I going to look at the .410 VHE next Thursday & I'll send a report & pictures then.

Best Regards, George

[E Robert Fabian]

Destry and Harry, You may not reload but I do and I couldn't disagree more. Scott has a 2 frame 10ga. with the 3 frame butt stock, lots of recoil area,that weighs in at around 9lbs 8 oz.. We shoot 1 1/4 and 1 3/8 loads all day using Sherman Bell's recipes. Scotts 30" 2 frame ten is about 8 oz. lighter than my 3 frame. I'm in the market for a 2 frame ten in the future after handling Scott's.

These are Damascus guns so we are shooting low pressure loads in 1100 to 1200 FPS

[Harry Collins]

Robert,

You are exactly right. My #4 frame "D" and #3 frame "DH" both have 32" barrels are in the ten pound weight range and Sherman Bell's 1 1/4 oz loads at almost 1200 fps are no problem shooting all day long. My #2 frame with 30" Twist barrels is as handy and at about the same weight as a #2 frame 12 gauge and 1 1/4 oz wares on my 61 year old complaints!

Harry

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Well yeah, if you want to shoot 12 gauge loads of of a 10 gauge gun then a #2 frame is just the thing. To me a 10 gauge is 1 3/8 ounce and heavier as far as shells go.

DLH

[E Robert Fabian]

I agree, I shoot the 1 1/4 and 1 3/8 at crows and puddle ducks early season as the season gets along I move towards 1 1/2 and 1 5/8 which I get great results out to 70 yrds.

[Bob Brown]

Rather than hi-jack this thread I just posted a few questions in a thread on the reloading forum. I'm in the middle of loading some short 10s to use on geese this weekend using tungsten matrix shot. I'd appreciate any advice you more experienced gentlemen could give me. Thanks.

[Harry Collins]

Bob,

I can't find the reloading forum. I'm not much help with Tungsten. I do reload 1 1/4 oz of "Nice Shot" and use Sherman Bell's data for lead. Nice Shot will produce more pressure, but preforms best with lighter loads (ie: 1 1/4 oz in a 10 gauge). My load is Fed 2 7/8" hull, WW 209 primer, 35 gr IMR 4756, SP 10 wad with one .070 16 gauge card, 1 1/4 oz shot and 6 point crimp yields 1194 fps @ 5800 psi (for lead shot).

Harry

pictured to the left under my name is the #4 frame D grade 10 gauge and the #0 frame 20 gauge

[Bob Brown]

Thanks Harry. Other than using TM rather than Nice Shot that's the same load I'm using. I'm not adding the 16 gauge card, though I probably should.

[Dean Romig]

Harry, do not pay a premium for a VHE .410 with a "ball or semi-pistol grip. That grip style is more common (by percentage of semi-pistol grip guns produced of the total of .410's made) on the .410 VH and VHE than any other Parker hammerless. Dean