Do Simmons Hardware records still exist somewhere?

[John Havard]

Does anyone know if there are any records from Simmons Hardware still in existence anywhere?

My Parker research letter notes that my DHE was ordered by Simmons Hardware in 1906 and was shipped with 30" damascus barrels. However, the gun has serial-number-matched 31" (UNCUT) Titanic barrels. These barrels bear the initials of Walter King, which means that they must have been made prior to 1910 when W. King became shop foreman. How long before he became foreman he stopped proofing and stamping barrels is not known. But The Parker books state that he was replaced by "J.G." whose stamp is found on barrels proofed after Mr. King moved up to be foreman.

The barrels, being 31", are in and of themselves a fairly rare novelty. And the fact that Walter King stamped his proof stamp on them narrows down the time when they were made to be very close to the date of the order from Simmons. They had to have been made and fitted to the gun reasonably close to the original gun manufacture date because they are stamped by Walter King.

My guess, and that's all that it is, is that someone (Simmons? Their customer for whom they were ordering the gun?) changed their minds and altered the order to be filled with Titanic barrels rather than damascus. Either that or the gun was shipped back to Parker within a couple-three years after original manufacture for replacement barrels. All reasonable. But why 31" barrels? That had to have been a specific request placed by someone.

Which gets me back to my original question. My Parker research letter mentions nothing about a change in the original order from Simmons (or a repair/replacement change within a couple-three years after the original shipment date). I'd love to find out a bit more about these 31" barrels and how/why they came to be on this shotgun. Does anyone know if records from Simmons Hardware exist anywhere that might enable me to research the provenance of this shotgun further?

[Mark Landskov]

http://www.thckk.org/

Try 'The Hardware Collectors' at the above site. They are dedicated to outfits like Simmons and Shapleigh, etc.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

John, Join the crowd, I have been trying to get info on Wlliam Waggoner who had a shop in DC and catered to the effuent crowd in and around the Capital. My gun the first 20ga hammer, with 250.00 or 300.00 engraving, gun was I guess built as a show gun or prototype the letter does not mention an order by any store or person. but it was sent back at the turn of the century according to parker records by the shop of William Waggoner, to have the existing barrels cleaned out and a new set of barrels made for it. But again no reference to who the guns owner was It gets more interesting but that is for the article I will write about it. Good luck with your search. Gary

[Bill Murphy]

William Wagner was a VIP type of dealer and ended up with many interesting guns like the little C grade 20 hammer show gun that shows up in PB order books so many times.

[Mike McKinney]

To my knowledge no records have been kept by any of the companies who came to own Simmons Hardware. The THCKK group could have different information, but Simmons Hardware/Keen Kutter is collected by many people. It's massive to see one of their catalogs. I have one from 1930 and it's quiet extensive. They were a BIG hardware jobber for many years and remnants of records are collectable in and of themselves. Their home office was in St. Louis, and they distributed goods across our country.

[John Havard]

I have contacted the gentleman who the THCKK group identifies as their primary contact for any and all information regarding Simmons Hardware. So far no response. I have no idea if I will hear from him, and if so, whether or not he will be able to point me in the right direction but it's worth a shot.

[Don Kaas]

If you have a letter with the guns original details and there is no record of the Titanic barrels being fitted, I would make the assumption they were fitted post 1919 (hence the lack of repair records). Parker was not a big operation and I believe you may be a little too restrictive on Walter King's barrel finishing stamp's dating. W.K. stamps are known past 1910... I have had 5 or 6 D grades that started life as Damascus guns and now have factory fitted Titanics.

One example of this is DHE #132,781 which started out in 1905 as a Damascus 26" 0 frame 16g sent to Portland, ME per the factory records. It lost its D3 barrels to pitting and a severe dent it received when the DHE tumbled out of a railroad locomotive cab in the "early 1920s". Mr. Brown was a civil engineer for the railroad between Boston and Portland and would bring the Parker along on inspection tours and shoot pa'tridge when the train stopped for water at rural NE sidings It went back to Parker and now has 26" Titanics clearly stamped "W.K.". While no factory record exists of their being fitted (post 1919) I am pretty sure of the facts because the "Doc Brown" the son of the man who bought the gun in 1905 told me so. He died in his late 90s a few years ago and was the local doctor in my family's hometown in NH (he gave the gun to my late uncle who left it to me). I shot the gun last weekend in VA and it remains in original condition with the scars of its railroad accident on the stock from the incident many years ago. It is my favorite bird gun...

Notwithstanding accidents, an uncleaned, black powder residue caked Damascus barrel used with corrosive primers pitted VERY quickly. It was commonplace to return them to Parker for boring and dent removal. It became increasingly common for them to be replaced by the more modern and fashionable "black barrels".

[John Havard]

Don, very interesting. Perhaps I am being too restrictive on the dates of barrels bearing Walter King's stamp. The reason I am, however, is based on what is said on (as I recall) page 582 of The Parker Story where proof stamping is discussed. The book pretty clearly states that after Walter King moved up he was replaced by "J.G." and his proof stamp initials are on all guns after the 1910 time frame. Working from memory here but that's what I remember the book essentially saying.

Did Parker keep proofed barrels around in stock for 10 or more years? Could this set of barrels have been stamped by Walter King prior to 1910, laid aside for 10 or more years, and then have been used to replace the damascus barrels that were originally (?) supplied with this gun? Does anyone know about how fluid the cutoff date which separates barrels stamped with "WK" and those stamped with "JG" is?

In any event, if I find out anything about Simmons Hardware's records I'll let everyone know. It's a long shot for sure but what the heck?

[Dave Suponski]

John, the "JG' denotes Jim Geary.

[John Havard]

Thanks Dave. Without pulling out my books and looking it up I didn't remember Mr. Geary's name. Do you have any insight into how overlapped versus how cleanly the transition from Walter King as proof master to Jim Geary as proof master was? The book implies that the transition was fairly clean and well-defined but Don's information doesn't support that.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Parts laid around for years and were used long after the fact. How else to you explain the late damascus barrel guns that are occasionally seen? We just had one on here, a Trojan with twist tubes. Definitely not something they ordered special for those guns, just what was laying around to be used up.


Destry

[Bruce Day]

Forty were made up on special order from Iver Johnson Sporting Goods. Whether the barrels were just laying around, I can't say. I wasn't there. Parker filled an order , they had the barrels and they cut Iver Johnson price lower than standard fluid steel Trojans. We've seen records where Parker made numerous special deals at low prices. I've also seen V grades with Twist barrels, but don't know anything more about quantity, circumstances, etc.

[Don Kaas]

The issue is- can one use the W.K. inspection stamp to reliably date a Parker barrel without other factory records? The answer appears to be no, IMHO.

Walter King worked for Parker a long time. It would not surprise me that Walter King inspected re-barrel jobs that came in as these were one off jobs done by the repair department not in batch new gun production even when he was Superintendent. His father before him was involved in every aspect of the factory. He had a good teacher.

But as Bruce says, "I wasn't there." and no one else alive was either...

[Bruce Day]

Thanks to Mark for referring to the Hardware Collectors . I wonder if there is a similar site for the big gun dealers, such as Schoverling in NYC, etc.

I have a GHE from Tisdall Sporting Goods in Vancouver BC and just that history is interesting because they are rumored to have supplied great quantities of arms, shipped over as ancester's remains, to China for the Boxer Rebellion, and Tisdall later became the mayor and had quite a gun club in the city parks.

When I didn't have more than a couple Parkers, the history was only of passing interest to me, but now that I have all that I want or need and am not acquiring, the history seems more important......just an observation, maybe others experience the same.

[Don Kaas]

For years I collected things from E.K. Tyron in Philadelphia. Parkers, lots of Foxes, cases, catalogs, etc. It would have been so much more fun if there had been records to go along with the stuff so you could put a customer's name to a gun, for example...we are very lucky to have the Parker records we have...

[Bruce Day]

Don, I have a prized 1905 20ga CHE damascus with rondel engraving from Tryon, and have a copy of the order book page. If you would like a copy, let me know, of the order page, not the gun.

[Bill Murphy]

There are records of many companies out there in the collections of those who collect hardware history, city history, state history, tool history, meat grinder history, you name it. The internet has helped to get these people together, but we aren't all together yet. Those interested in these things will continue to try to connect with others interested in the same things. The PGCA has done their part and we are interested in others who have done theirs. There are hundreds of Simmons collectors who would be willing to assist.