Upgraded parker value? AHE 16...Turnbull

[Kenny Graft]

Im looking at a gun on william larkin moore & sons sight. Whats it realy worth??? Its ia a turnbull upgrade. AHE 16ga. O frame 30" FF DT-SG-SF Sorry I have no link to jump over but is listed with the used parkers. I like this gun and wonder about the price? Thay are asking 20K....If a buyer wanted to resell it at some point would it hold its value. Im thinking of making them a offer....maybe 16500.00, not that this will buy it. Just wondering if that would be a good or bad idea value wise for a upgrade??? I love 16ga. guns and it would fit me and make a perfect Kansas wild rooster gun!!! 6lbs-6oz I would sell a few nice guns to finance this upgrade. Take a look at it and give your opinion...I have not made any offers on this gun....thanks Kenny Graft SXS ohio....(-:

[Linn Matthews]

IMHO, it is the same thing as wearing a fake Rolex,regardless of how good the fake is. You can admire the quality of the upgrade, the skill of the woodworker or the engraver, etc.
But, in the end, it is still not an original and therefore is worth less.

[Austin W Hogan]

Kenny; it would be quite honest and legitimate for you to call Turnbull Restorations, and ask for an estimate of the cost and time of delivery for them to make a similar 16AHE, or other gauge and grade of your choice, for you. The initial cost of a Parker of proper gauge and barrel length is the starting point of the cost.
Remember that a gun initiated by you can have your choice of birds dogs etc in the engraving., and your stock dimensions

Best, Austin

[Bill Bates]

As to worth of a shotgun like this one. I figure it is worth less than the cost to have Turnbull build another one made just how you want it made. It was someone elses dream and your dream may just be a little different; so, paying the actual production cost makes little sense. Other than the have it now factor I would think the cost needs to be well below what Doug will make you another. How much below that cost is anyones guess.

[edgarspencer]

It's pretty easy to loose sight off the distinction between 'worth' and 'value' when looking at things with the heart, instead the head. If the gun is precisely finished to the level you would have contracted Turnbull, then it's worth, to you, what you paid for the donor gun, plus the cost to have Turnbull do the work. Only then is it a good value to you, and probably only you. Is it a good investment? Well, I always interpreted that to mean that it would keep up with inflation and grow in it's liquidated value. The gun wouldn't likely appreciate in value unless Turnbull is held on the same plane, when he's no longer around, as other sound investment quality pieces like original Parkers, certain Colts and Winchesters. The greater the numbers seeking those pieces makes them, simply by virtue of the numbers, good investments. Even then, all these things come into, and go out of fashion to some degree. Remember when you couldn't give away a Damascus barreled gun? I'd never be able to retire (oh, wait, I am retired) on the sale of some of the things I've thrown money at, but the joy those things have given me has no price.
Do any of you remember a guy named Ed Spicer? He had a penchant for taking good, but ordinary quality pieces to the real masters like Joe Jurjevic and John Warren and having something built that was flat out gorgeous. I had one of his double rifles; what began as a nice Kettner, then profusely redone by John Warren. I always thought of it as my John Warren double rifle, not my Kettner. I sold it at the Vintagers at Sandanona, but I was lucky to have found a buyer who also liked Warren's work. My dad had one of Spike's Parker's, but there again, he didn't really think of it as a Parker VHE 28, which is what it originally was. It was a beautifully upgraded gun by John Warren, with a 2nd set of barrels made by Jurjevic, in 38-55 Winchester. My dad also had an original VHE28, that got lots of use, but I don't recall the Warren 28 ever leaving the house. I sure hope it's present owner uses it.

[Greg Baehman]

WLM's description of the gun states they have it priced at two thirds of replacement costs...so they are saying it will cost ~ $30,000.00 to have Turnbull produce another one.

I know you could commission a similar gun with comparable quality, albeit not by Turnbull, but built to your specifications, with your choice of wood, your choice of engraving---your choice of everything, custom-built for Kenny for ~ $10,000 to $12,000.

[Bruce Day]

I have no idea whether it is a good value or not Kenny.

What I do know is that the best market and investment has for many years been in clean, original high condition, high grade small bore Parkers.

[George Lander]

Kenny: To give you a recent example a very fine 12 bore A-1 Special sold yesterday at Julia's for $50,000 while a 20 bore A-1 Special upgrade (started life as a Trojan) w/ extra Belgian barrels all nicely cased brought $12,000.

Best Regards, George

[edgarspencer]

George, That's the best kind of response yet. Based in fact, and about as current as it gets.

[Kenny Graft]

Food for thought......I like the gun as it is...to replace it fresh today...need a good starter gun O frame with ejectores 3-4000.00 say 10K for the work??? maybe 13,500.00 would be about right to buy this one? Auctions don't lie, $$$ thats the number!

[Ray Masciarella]

I have a real AH circa 1890. Origianlly a 12 ga D6. Sent back to factory for 16 ga Acme barrels. Refinished stock (really nice), reblued TG and Butt plate. 30-40% original CCH. 95% blue on 16 ga barrels. I paid less then 20k for it. Not a perfect, 100% restored gun. Messed with a little (the refinsihed stock and reblue make no difference to me). Thus would seem to me you could find a nice original gun for same or less price.

I also have a well worn AH circa 1890. At one time I had the crazy thought of a full restoration by Turnbull. They wanted 10k just to recut the engraving! To upgarde a stock it would be 3-5K is my guess. The stock wouldn't be easy if your looking for correct grade of wood and then find someone who could do the right job. Would seem to me that it would cost a lot of money to do one yourself. I'd price the engraving first. When I got a price of 10k just to recut existing engraving, that was enough for me to just take it dove hunting and be happy.

I have anoth AH circa 1898. All original D6. Barrels 90%, CCH30-40%. You get the idea. I bought it for less then 20k. (I'm begining to think I have too many shotguns!!lol!)

I guess what I'm saying is 20k for a perfect fake AH is probably less then what it would cost to do your own Turnbull upgrade but you could find a nice real gun for less if you could live without it being brand new (and I think that's what owning an old gun is all about).

Just my two cents! Whatever you get, I hope you enjoy it.

Ray

[George Lander]

Not everyone can afford $50,000 for an original A-1 Special in excellant condition and so there is certainly a place for a quality upgraded Parker since the main difference in the grade is in the engraving, finish, wood & embellishments, the quality of the basic gun itself being virtually the same. Charles Parker didn't know how to make a cheap gun IMHO.

Best Regards, George

[Richard Flanders]

This gun on WLM's site is a real beauty. Stunning. I'd guess it would be difficult to duplicate for $20K.

[Ray Masciarella]

Just looked myself. That rascal is a beauty. I don't think the engraving is AH or better but I also don't think you could have that gun done for less then 20k. Still have to wonder about long term value when one just sold for 12k but if it hits your hot button who cares.

[Bill Murphy]

Kenny, sit down on my knee. Relax and fold your hands in your lap. OK, that is some gun you are looking at. Now take a look at the Hermsen engraving. (Is that how he spells his name?) Is that engraving up to your standards? This is a big question, because the engraving is the big part of the upgrade. Neil is a recognized engraver, but you have to like this particular work. The rest of the gun is easier to appraise. Yup, drive the price down as far as you can. That's about it. Write the check or don't.

[Bruce Day]

.......16ga. guns and it would fit me and make a perfect Kansas wild rooster gun!!! 6lbs-6oz....(-:


Yes, thats what I use in Kansas and as my general go to gun. A well used, repaired many times 16ga PHE that does just fine if the dog jumps up and scratches the stock, I drop it in mud, it falls to the side in the truck. You sure you want to take a finely engraved costly gun in the rough and tumble world of wild bird hunting? What will happen if you step in a badger hole, fall and break the stock? I have a couple nice guns and I save those for well controlled situations or shooting targets.

[Chris Travinski]

Kenny,
How is the price of this gun in comparison to a similar reproduction A grade? I wouldn't guess there would be much difference. It's definately a beautiful gun, if you need someone to talk you into it, then make an offer. By the way, what's up with the recent interest in straight stock guns!? It's not like you!! Keep us posted.

Chris

[Dean Romig]

Would someone be kind enough to post a link to the WLM gun in question?
I've tried to find it on their site but have been unsuccessful.

[Kenny Graft]

Thats one issue....I would need to hold this one and point it....get a good feel for it. It may not be what I want? I think I would prefer pistal grip stock...but I now have a SG repro 20 that Im shooting about the same as my pistal grip repro. That upgrade gun is eye candy....for a parker junkie....(-:

[Greg Baehman]

Here's the direct link:
http://www.williamlarkinmoore.com/product_details.asp?id=3065

[Paul Ehlers]

Here you go Dean.

http://www.williamlarkinmoore.com/product_details.asp?id=3065

Kenny,

My old uncle Jimmy taught me at a young age that an item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

This gun is beautiful. If it pop's your rocket, your the only one that can answer the question of value for it. If it were me I would call Dave Moore and ask him to take any additional pictures you might like to see of it. Ask lots of questions and then think about it for a week or more.

This gun isn't going anywhere real fast. Take your time!!! Your gut and brain will tell you what to do!

Paul

[John Havard]

One of Bill Moore's sons commissioned this particular shotgun for himself and they aren't too interested in selling it. I know because I tried to buy it a few months ago at a price I thought more reasonable than their asking price. Buying a shotgun like this one is like buying a diamond or maybe a house. You have to find just the right person who wants "that" particular diamond or house or gun. They are inflexible in their price and they won't sell it any time soon if that remains the case in my opinion.

[Robin Lewis]

For just a bit more, another $5,000 for a total of $25,000, you could have had the real McCoy at Julia's Auction yesterday. Granted, not as flashy but when it comes time to sell this one will find a loving home a lot faster, IMHO.

*RARE & DESIRABLE PARKER AHE SINGLE TRIGGER STRAIGHT GRIP GAME GUN. SN 239747. Cal. 20 ga. 2-3/4" Chambers. 0 Frame. 26" Acme steel bbls have all correct stamps on bbl flats. Action with single filed bead around fences is engraved with typical late Parker scroll and game scenes, with a trio of bobwhite on left, pair of flying pheasants on right, and trio of pheasants on bottom. "Parker" is on bottom of action. Marbled and nicely fiddle-figured European walnut straight grip buttstock measures 14-3/8" over skeleton buttplate. Stock features typical "A" recessed checkered side panels, fleur de lis drop points, and fancy checkering pattern with mullered borders. Gold oval on toe line is engraved with monogram "E C V". Matching splinter ejector forend has nearly full coverage of checkering. Bore diameter: left -.617, right -.618. Bore restrictions: left -.016, right -.009. Wall thickness: left -.025, right -.025. Drop at heel: 2-3/8", drop at comb: 1-5/16". Weight: 6 lbs. 7 oz. LOP 14-3/8". Parker Gun Identification and Serialization ledger lists this gun in this configuration. PROVENANCE: Ned Schwing Collection. CONDITION: Excellent. Bbls retain 80 - 85% of orig blue, thinning and browning overall, especially along rib. Action retains a considerable amount of orig case hardening color, but is mostly a very pleasing silver gray overall. Trigger guard is flaked, and toned to nearly all silver. Buttstock has had a professional repair at wrist, and retains most of what appears to be orig finish having typical handling marks. Checkering has been re-cut. Crest plate and skeleton buttplate with later engraving. Bores are excellent, bright and shiny. Action is tight. Ejectors are in time. Trigger works. A nicely configured high grade Parker, all A quality guns are scarce, with a total of 306 hammerless guns ever being made, only 46 in 20 ga. 4-42575 MGM169 (30,000-50,000)

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Paul for linking that fabulous Parker.

I certainly would like to have that gun in hand. My guess is that the pictures don't really do it justice. That gun really rings my bell and I think the asking price is right in there in the 'reasonable' category. There was a CHE restored by DTR a year or two ago that was for sale for quite some time (don't know if it ever sold) with a $35,000 ('unreasonable') asking price which wasn't nearly the gun this one is. DTR is one of the very few shops that produce some of the finest work, both restorations as well as upgrades in the country and, dare I say, even the world.

[Kenny Graft]

Would it go yo Kansas if perchased?...Yup! I drive my 42000.00 pick up in the mud too. This may not be the right hi grade for me? It does have the right dementions and is so nice! They may be firm on this one? Im not going to bother WLM just yet. I plan to sell some of my non used ones and re think the hi gade perchase for now. Later I may send them a offer with cash in hand....Im also working with Chuck Brunner on getting the right 16 for me...he has been getting some realy nice parkers lately..(-: I want it to have ...Dt-PG-SF 28" with the right tube full or X-full, the left choke does not matter so mutch. Stock will be 1 3/8 2 3/8 14 1/4 at 6 to 6 1/2 lbs maybe 6 3/4 lbs if all else is correct....Wake up now#!%&*$$$.....thanks all SXS ohio...(-:

[Bruce Day]

Thanks for posting the pictures Robin. A beautiful and correct Parker. An example of a Parker that will be in the core of someone's collection and grow in value over the years. A gun that will be admired by purists and non purists alike.