1895 12 GAUGE PARKER..DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT?

[RON SCORES]

BILL HI RON SCORES NEW NEW MEMBER HERE THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT A PARKER AND BARREL IF I MAY? THE PARKER IS SERIAL NUMBER 84K DATES TO 1895 SHOULD HAVE DAMASCUS BARREL BUT DOES HAVE MATCHED SERIAL NUMBERS STAMPED PARKER GUN WORK? CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THIS THANKS

[Robin Lewis]

Post the serial number and maybe we can get some details on it.

[RON SCORES]

84025

[RON SCORES]

HAS EXTRACTORS , HIGHLY DETAILED WITH CHECKERED STOCK AND DEEP ENGRAVING 28" BARREL I SEE FRAME SIZE 1/2 BARREL CHECKERED ON TOP RIB WHERE IT WOULD SAY PARKER? INSTEAD STAMPED UN DER SIDE PARKER GUN WORK SAME SERIAL NUMBER. WHAT INTEREST ME IS I READ IN ONE OF BILL'S POST ABOUT A REMINGTON REBARRELED DAMACUS "A RATHER UNUSUAL VARIATION OF PARKER HISTORY"

[RON SCORES]

"You seem to have a legitimate Remington rebarrelled Damascus era Parker. I would suspect that Remington trashed all Damascus barrels that were sent in for rebarrel jobs. You have a rather unusual variation of Parker history." I QUOTE THIS FROM AN EARLIER POST IN 08 BY BILL MURPHY...I THINK THIS IS WHAT I HAVE ALSO.

[Chuck Bishop]

Ron,

Your gun is not listed in the Serilization Book so we can't give you details right now. There are surviving records available if you want to order a research letter.

We can only help you if you provide in focus closeups of your gun to include sides and bottom of the receiver, barrel rib inscription, barrel flats, receiver water table, and stock.

There are details in the FAQ of this site on how to post pictures.

[RON SCORES]

SERIAL NUMBER 84025 PARKER DOUBLE 12 GA WITH MATCHING PARKER GUN WORK BARREL POSTED AN ALBUM THANKS FELLAS

[RON SCORES]

ANYBODY HAVE ANY LUCK?

[Jack Cronkhite]

Ron: I went through your album and your gun looks quite nice. The butt stock is quite attractive. A close up of the extensive engraving on the frame would be nice to look at. I don't know enough about what you have, to give you info, other than it looks nice. A 1/2 frame 12 gauge is not something I have seen, others may have. Should be a nice upland game getter.

I will be interested to hear more from the experts about your gun

[RON SCORES]

Thanks, I am interested also, i know the few collectors that i did show it to were also not sure either.I added a few more pictures of the frame...do you think i am posted in the right area for the experts to find my post?

[Jack Cronkhite]

Letting folks know you have an album allows them to have a look. Here are a couple to spur on interest.
Cheers,
Jack

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=276&pictureid=2878

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=276&pictureid=2887

[Stu Williams]

SAA-WHEEET!!!

where is the album?

[Jack Cronkhite]

Stu: If you click on any member's name in the forums, e.g. RON SCORES, there is a drop down menu. Click on Public Profile. IF the member has one or more albums, that will show on the right side of the Public Profile page. Click on the album and enjoy the pictures.
Cheers,
Jack

BTW: Check FAQ 21 (http://www.parkerguns.org/pages/faq/Framesize.htm) for info regarding frame size, how to measure if unsure and what gauge barrels were fitted to what frame size.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Ron, I have never seen a 1/2 frame gun with a 84k serial number.

[Dave Suponski]

Gary,The frame dimensions of a 1/2 frame gun mimick a 1 frame gun. This is interesting because of the fact that the 1/2 frame Remington barrels were fitted to this gun.

[Dean Romig]

What an interesting Parker.

By the serial number range as well as the pictures you have posted on your album, especially the picture of the water tables, your Parker left Meriden as a Grade 2, or G Grade, and has since been rebarreled at Remington as well as having an engraving and checkering "upgrade" to something like an 'A-Grade' level. Obviously done long ago.

[RON SCORES]

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHERE I MIGHT FIND MORE INFO ON THE PARKER I POSTED ABOUT? THANKS RON

[RON SCORES]

HELLO I HAVE AN EARLY PARKER DOUBLE HIGHLY ENGRAVED LOOKS TO HAVE A REBARREL NUMBERS MATCHING BARREL MARKED PARKER GUN WORK. I SET AN ALBUM UP THE SERIAL NUMBER IS #84025 ANYTHING ANYONE CAN TELL ME ABOUT IT WILL BE APPRECIATED. THANKS RON

[Bruce Day]

The action frame is marked for a G grade. The engraving is not characteristic of a G.
The stock is styled to look like a B grade.
The barrels are take off s from a late 1/2 frame V grade.

Certainly an interesting gun, and as you can see, it is assembled from components of different grades and ages.

Bruce Day, novice Parker non expert who refers all valuation questions to Bill Murphy.

[RON SCORES]

THANKS I AM TRYING TO DETERMINE A VALUE FOR MY INSURANCE. WHY IS THE BARREL NOT MARKED ON THE RIB? THANKS AGAIN RON

[Bill Murphy]

What is the exact distance between the firing pins?

[RON SCORES]

EDGE OF HOLE TO EDGE OF HOLE 15/16"

[Bill Murphy]

We need the distance center to center.

[RON SCORES]

1 1/16"

[Bill Murphy]

Bruce presents an interesting scenario, but there aren't many examples of 1/2 frame barrel sets being scavenged from junk guns. The engraving looks like a factory upgrade and the barrels are probably factory installations. We need much better pictures to determine whether Remington repair stamps indicate the gun was at Remington for this work. Take closeup, well lighted pictures of the barrel flats and the water table of the frame. There are serial numbers stamped on the barrel flats. This indicates a factory job. My guess is that the gun was sent to the factory for new barrels and upgrading engraving to C or B Grade including B Grade wood. The engraving was probably done by Robert Runge. The frame was probably originally a #1 frame, which is compatible with the Remington era 1/2 frame barrels. The #1 and #1/2 frame pin separation is 1 1/16".

[Jack Cronkhite]

Ron: You might want to order the research letter to see what the surviving factory records indicate. As Dean pointed out, the gun started life as a Grade 2 (G) and along the way had a major face-lift.

If you have the right tools and skills, you could remove the trigger guard screw, lift the tang and rotate counter-clockwise approx 1/8 turn and see if a serial number is under there and if it matches or not. I suspect not, but never say never.

The price of the letter may be worth satisfying "some" of your curiosity. There will likely still be more questions.

Cheers,
Jack

This image courtesy of another thread on revealing the serial number under the tang.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6831&stc=1&d=1295406915

[RON SCORES]

I WILL ADD MORE PICTURES TOMORROW IN NATURAL LIGHT YES THE NUMBERS ON THE BARREL MATCH. I WAS TOLD THIS GUN IS SPECIAL BUT THAT IS IT...I KNOW A FEW PEOPLE WHO HAD KNOWLEDGE LOOKED AT IT AND WANTED IT.. NOW I HOPE WITH ALL YOUR KNOWLEDGE HERE WE CAN FIND OUT THE HISTORY AND WHY THIS GUN IS SPECIAL.I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP. RON

[RON SCORES]

THEY MATCH... UNDER TANG IS THE SAME AS THE OTHER NUMBERS

[Bill Murphy]

I told you what I think.

[Bill Murphy]

We also need some pictures of the forend and the area where it joins the receiver. Has this gun been converted to automatic ejectors or is it still an extractor gun?

[RON SCORES]

thank you it is 1 1/16" center to center i measured incorrect. would this all add to the value? i am trying to get an insurance estimate,along with learning more about it for myself. thanks again

[RON SCORES]

so the research letter should document the work done if it indeed it did go back for all the upgrades? i do not see any initials in the engraving. the only letters i see are parkers bros over the game scene. so if runge worked at parker he would not be able to personalize with his initials? correct?

[RON SCORES]

still an extractor.

[Dean Romig]

Ron, If the work was done at Remington there will be no record that we know of documenting their work. There may be a Remington date code stamped in the barrel flats but for the most part there is nothing available to us that tells us what was done.

There are very few and rare examples of Robert Runge's signature on his work. Don't expect to find it on your gun - the odds are like hitting the Mega-Millions.

[Bill Murphy]

Can you experts tell Mr. Scores whether his gun seems to be engraved to C or B Grade level? Of course, there is no bead at the breech balls, but what about the engraving coverage?

[Bill Murphy]

Mr. Scores, I would order a PGCA letter on your gun to confirm that it was actually built as a Grade 2 gun. You will likely get some information on the original purchaser, even if it is a large sporting goods firm. At some point, you will want all the research information on your gun that you can get. It is a very interesting gun.

[RON SCORES]

THANK YOU I WILL ORDER A LETTER WHAT GRADE SHOULD I PUT? WHERE IT ASKS THE GRADE? I AM ADDING A FEW PICTURES NOW TO THE ALBUM. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP. SO WOULD YOU SAY THIS GUN IS A 1 OF A KIND?

[Bruce Day]

G, with added engraving. Its not C or B, because it says G. I am not an expert , but to me, if it says G, its a G. And it has extra engraving , but its still not a C or B. Just like these embellished V grades, they are still not A-1 Specials.

How can anybody say that it is one of a kind without seeing all Parkers? It is definitely different and if the owner is looking to sell it by creating interest here instead of going quietly to an expert and getting a private valuation letter, somebody may be interested in the unusual. J R Larue makes a living doing valuations, advertises as such, and if a person wanted an experts opinion and would pay or it, that is an accepted and credible source, not a bunch of us chatting.

Bruce Day, novice third degree and certified non expert

[RON SCORES]

IT IS HARD TO FIND AN EXPERT WHO STAYS HONEST WHEN HE THINKS HE CAN GET SOMETHING AT A GOOD PRICE. I HAD THIS EXPERICE WITH A NEPTUNE KREIGOFF DRILLING THE ONLY GUN I EVER SOLD AND KICK MY SELF EVERYDAY ABOUT IT...A FEW EXPERTS AT ORVIS HERE IN NY WHEN THE DID THE ANNUAL SHOOT. VALUED IT LOW AND TURNS OUT I SOLD IT FOR A THIRD OF ITS VALUE. BUT EVERYTHING HAS A PRICE AND I AM NOT SAYING THE GUN IS FOR SALE BUT ONE NEVER KNOWS WITH TAXES CLIMBING FUEL COSTS AND I HAVE TWO YOUNG DAUGHTERS I AM WORKING ON THERE FUTURE. BUT YES MY QUEST IF TO FIND OUT WHAT I CAN ABOUT THIS PARKER. AS WE CAN ALL AGREE IT IS DIFFERENT? WHO KNOWS WHO IT BELONGED TO AND WHY IT HAS BEEN ALTERED SO MUCH. MIGHT OF BEEN SOMEONE OF HIGH STATUS OR WEALTH. IT COMES FROM A PART OF NY WHERE MANY WEALTHY AND NOTABLE MEN WALKED OR SHOULD WE SAY HUNTED AT ONE TIME.

[Bruce Day]

You will sell at fair market value, whatever it is, by placing it at auction. Look at Gunbroker, or example, or Julias, Rock Island Auction, Littlejohns, etc. Because this gun is outside the norm for its grade, it will be hard, if not impossible, to look at comparables and guess at a value. An auction will be the only way to find value.

Or you can go to J R Larue and pay for his opinion, as others do. He is not a gun dealer and has no other self interest. If you are truly looking for a valuation letter for insurance coverage purposes, forum chat guesses from people who have not examined the gun in person and who have no demonstrated expertise in valuation will not be acceptable. My guess is that a Larue valuation will have considerable range.

[RON SCORES]

THANKYOU I WILL CONTACT LARUE AFTER I SEND FOR THE RESEARCH LETTER SHOULD I ADD ANY EXTRA INFO WHEN I SEND FOR THE RESEACH LETTER? WILL THEY REFERENCE MY ALBUM HERE IF I TELL THEM ABOUT IT. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? THANKS RON

[Bruce Day]

When you write Mark Conrad and ask him for a research letter, you could reference the album photos here, he may have already seen them. He will comment as he sees fit.

You might look at the thread, Readily available Parkers, below. There are photos there of some outstanding G grades that are original or partially restored condition. I think many of those guns would have high interest to many Parker collectors as true to their type.

I've given you my thoughts and I see many other Parker people are on this thread now, who may have other valuable views. I'm strictly one person with my own half assed views, as my friend John Dunkle well knows.

[edgarspencer]

Many more qualified guys than me, have politely commented on your gun, and while I may be relatively new to the forum, I'm not new to Parkers.
First off, let me say you have a very pretty gun, That said, an original Parker can only be original once, but it can be embellished, altered, upgraded and modified as many times as there are people wanting to do it,and willing to spend the money.
I think from your album, it's apparent that the gun was originally a Grade 2, or, G grade, and was most likely a Damascus barreled gun when it left Meriden. The lack of rib inscription, and other markings would seem to suggest it was re-barreled by Remington at a much later date.
Whether the butt stock is original to the gun might be able to be determined if it were removed, but it doesn't mater that much. In my most unqualified opinion, the upgraded checkering, checkered side panels and fleur-de-lis do not resemble those on grade 6 or 7 guns done at Meriden, but that doesn't mean it wasn't done by Remington. The same holds true for the engraving. Add to your album some pictures of the fore-end so that we can see if that matches the style, or grade, that the gunsmith had in mind when doing the stock and engraving. It's really unfortunate that Remington repair work can't be documented.
While your gun is unique, and quite nice, I'm not certain it would command much more than a good Grade 2 from a purist Parker collector, but might well from the many who appreciate good workmanship on it's own merit. Whats nice is that the work wasn't done to misrepresent it as a much higher grade, or, bluntly, a fake.

[RON SCORES]

THANKS EDGAR FOR YOUR INPUT I ADDED THE PICTURES YOU REQUESTED. I AM NOW WRITTING MY REQUEST FOR A RESEARCH LETTER.

[Bruce Day]

B stock.

This gun has only been shot a few times and has lots of case colors, which wash out with camera flash. The rib around the breech balls is what Bill Murphy was talking about. The Fleur dis lys carving is what Edgar Spencer was talking about.

[RON SCORES]

YOU ALSO HAVE A PURRRDY PARKER...

[Jack Cronkhite]

Now doesn't that get more interesting. Water table shows a G frame but engraving is way beyond G. The butt stock checkering is high grade and the SN matches. Since there are some surviving records and it is an unusual gun, I think I would order a letter from research to satisfy what curiosity can be satisfied. Records for higher graded guns often show the original owner so you may be able to chase that down a bit as well.

Good luck in your search.
Jack

[Bill Murphy]

Your repair code stamps indicate your gun was serviced at Remington in January of 1940 if I read the code correctly as BJ3. Hang tight on the advice you are getting about outside appraisers. You are likely to find out more here than anywhere else.

[edgarspencer]

THANKS EDGAR FOR YOUR INPUT I ADDED THE PICTURES YOU REQUESTED. I AM NOW WRITTING MY REQUEST FOR A RESEARCH LETTER.

Thanks for the fore-end pics, Ron. It appears that the fore-end was left unaltered from it's G grade configuration. If you look at the hammerless pictures of the various grades you'll see that the tip iron had a raised edge beginning with the D grade, and the fore-end iron, latch and tip iron were engraved, also beginning with the D grade. Seems an odd oversight these weren't also upgraded when the action and stock were.

[Dave Noreen]

From your pictures it appears that your gun started life as an extractor gun in 1895 and was subsequently fitted with Moran & Wolfersperger automatic ejectors --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/MWEjectorsonGHParker73542.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/MoreMWEjectorsinGH73542.jpg

The pin in the forward part of the recess around the hinge pin ends and the slots milled in the front of the receiver are M&W work.

From the Remington repair code BJ3 (B = January, J = 1940, 3 = repair) it appears your gun was fitted with a set of new VH-Grade barrels and a new extractor forearm, and the M&W ejector parts removed from the receiver. Also the gun was fitted with the post 1910 bolt and the new barrels have the replaceable bolt plate.

[RON SCORES]

BARREL IS MARKED V GRADE VH IS JUST HAMMERLESS CORRECT? SO IT STARTED AS AN EXTRACTOR GUN WAS ALTERED THEN CHANGED BACK?

[Bruce Day]

Your repair code stamps indicate your gun was serviced at Remington in January of 1940 if I read the code correctly as BJ3. Hang tight on the advice you are getting about outside appraisers. You are likely to find out more here than anywhere else.


Yes but Bill, he said he wanted a valuation for insurance. Finding out information doesn't equate to a valuation, and an insurer will want an appraisal, which must be a document.

It would be different if the gun could be traced to an extraordinary famous person or event, but the chances of that are slim. To me, it is what we see, and an appraisal deals with that.

[RON SCORES]

MAILED MY REQUEST TODAY? I SURE HOPE I CAN FIND OUT WHO HAD THIS WORK DONE WHO OWNED THIS GUN...THEY MUST OF BEEN SOMEONE SPECIAL DO YOU AGREE?

[Bruce Day]

Thanks for the fore-end pics, Ron. It appears that the fore-end was left unaltered from it's G grade configuration. If you look at the hammerless pictures of the various grades you'll see that the tip iron had a raised edge beginning with the D grade, and the fore-end iron, latch and tip iron were engraved, also beginning with the D grade. Seems an odd oversight these weren't also upgraded when the action and stock were.


Edgar, from GHE SN 155, 033, a typical gun of the period.

[Bruce Day]

The research letter will most likely tell you that SN 84,025 was ordered in 1896 and was a G grade extractor gun, 30" damascus barrels choked full and full, 14" LOP, and 3" drop at heel. The gun was most likely shipped to a dealer or large hardware distributor and cost $80. If the gun was shipped to New York, maybe Shoverling Daly, or if lucky, the Charles Parker Company showroom in NYC. Some guns show the name of the first purchaser.

There will be no records on the Remington work in 1940. It is a remote possibility that you could take the gun to Babe Del Grego in Ilion, and he might be able to tell you something about what he believes with the gun.

Many Parkers were owned by "somebody special" and still are.

[RON SCORES]

YES WHEN I SAID SOMEONE SPECIAL I MEANT... I KNOW THE OWNER NOW DECEASED WAS TIGHT WITH THE ROOSEVELT'S HERE IN HYDE PARK NY THEY RACED ICE YACHTS HERE ON THE HUDSON, AND DID MANY OTHER SPORTING..THINGS

[edgarspencer]

That'll teach me to try and keep up with the big dogs. My GHE 16 is 179Kish and it's tip iron is engraved, but no raised edge.
Did you get your Colt spring?

[Chuck Bishop]

Ron,

Could you do us all a favor and turn off the Caps? The first letter of a sentence should be captialized, the rest lower case.

Thanks much.

[Bruce Day]

Edgar, small details changed over time. Cost savings measures. Scrollwork engraving became larger, some would say coarser, the small bead was dropped, checkering became coarser, the mullered border was eventually dropped. Still, of any period, you can find outstanding guns.

I'm a long way from being a big dog and am trying to work my way up from apprentice third class to second class.

I gave the Colt to a good local gunsmith for repair. The screws were in very tight, I soaked it in penetrating oil, still tight and I didn't want to bugger screws. I took the gun to the Colt Collectors Asso, which was having their national mtg in town, and they said it was just a good honest old gun that they would do nothing but keep it clean and functional. I see lots of these old Colts get refinished and engraved. The gun seemed to be worth about $2500, which was a surprise to me, particularly since you can buy a brand new one for $1100. If you think valuing Parkers is difficult, with Colts it seemed even more so. I saw guns which looked about alike to me and they were priced from $2500 to $6500 , and some up to $10,000 and I am not able to make reason out of it yet. These guys don't shoot their guns, they just fondle them . Makes a C grade Parker at $10,000 look like an absolute bargain, and you can shoot it on game and targets.

[RON SCORES]

Sorry i see it better....didn't think anyone minded....

[Bill Murphy]

Researcher, good catch on the aftermarket ejectors. Apparently, when the barrels were installed at Remington, a new forend was installed, and not engraved up to the level of the rest of the gun. However, the checkering pattern on the forend is up to the grade of the gun. That would lead us to believe that the engraving was not done at the same time the barrels and forend were installed. Mr. Scores, in the late Remington era, the grade and chamber length designation was stamped on the side of the barrel lug. This set of barrels was probably set aside for installation on a V Grade gun when manufactured. Rebarrelled guns often carried the V Grade designation as yours does.

[Bruce Day]

Ron, there is a forum protocol which we all had to learn. Typing all in caps is the same as yelling, the bigger the type, the louder the yell. We cut you some slack because we could see that you are new at it.

Bill, you see that the V barrels have extractors on them.....

I have a rebarrelled CHE 16 with the Rem barrels, not marked graded, just SN'ed to the gun and the date repair code. Wish I had the original damascus.

[Bill Murphy]

This is the first time I've seen a set of 1/2 frame barrels installed on a #1 frame gun, but my DHE 16 is the first time I had seen a set of #1 frame barrels installed on a 1/2 frame receiver. Have any of our members ever seen a set of 1/2 frame barrels without automatic ejectors, as on Mr. Scores' gun?

[Austin W Hogan]

Bill; I remember an early Parker, with 1/2 frame barrels mounted, at Las Vegas several years ago.
I no longer have the Remington correspondence I used to prepare the PP articles on shut down of the Parker operation, but I have some memory of it.
Ilion barrels were made on Remington machinery,
Ilion barrels carried no steel trade mark. A started gun could be finished to any grade ordered.
Complete sets of Parker parts were furnished to Lefever and Griffin and Howe
There were shortages of frames and fore end irons
Parkers were still priced without ejectors in the paperwork, but there were none in the last 100 odd started guns

Parkers were made and/or upgraded by the Remington Custom Shop for Remington directors, officers, and employees.

Best, Austin

[edgarspencer]

Bruce, I know what you mean about Colts and their values. I have been a student of SAAs for over 50 years and will always be just a student. It shouldn't be any mystery to you that a worn 1st gen will be worth twice what a new one costs. The mystery lies in the fact that 3 seemingly identical worn first gens can be valued from $2k, $6k, and +$20k. I have had over 50 of them and still have many. Like the hammer "Wall Hanger" the BP framed guns can be shot, with care. I sold one just this week, but you'll be proud of me; it was to fund a Parker purchase.

[Bruce Day]

So Austin, is the engraving and stock work on the Scores gun likely Lefever work? I've seen fleur dis lis before like that on guns that were attributed to Lefever, but I'm too distant to them and too far from Parker centers to really know.

I've seen a few Lefever guns said to be done by that shop but you fellows back there see many more than ever find there way out here to the Parker desert.

[Jim Akins]

Wonder what the machined slots are for on the front of the action? The forend lug on the barrels have a 2 stamped, usually the sign of a 2 barrel set, maybe another set of barrels and forend with ejectors?

[Bill Murphy]

Ron, I would be interested in buying a Parker with Roosevelt provenance. The Teddy Roosevelt Fox shotgun sold for a pretty good price, and that was only a Fox, not a Parker.

[RON SCORES]

Bill, I am not sure how this can be proved it is a longshot but i now from his family member they were buddy buddy. Maybe the research letter will help? Remington would have no records to seek? Now your thoughts on the engraver Runge? who is this Lefever others are speaking of? Where would be you next point of attack be? thanks again to you and all the other members everyone has been very helpful

[Jack Cronkhite]

Bruce: What are your thoughts on the butt stock? Would an "after-market" stockist have stamped the SN?

Ron: Is there also a single digit or letter under the SN on the wood?? Could you take a close-up pic of the area?

[Galen Hays]

Hello James,

I have a VH for which I need a replacement cocking link. If you don't find the owner of the remains of your barrel, I would be interested in buying it from you for the part that I badly need.

Thanks,

Galen Hays, gmhays27@sbcglobal.net

[RON SCORES]

Tarnation, I only removed the screw and lifted the tang enough to see the number with a bright light there was no letter just the same sn.on the stock.at the time I was not sure how to remove it completly so as I said I lifted about 1/8" from the wood to see the number

[Austin W Hogan]

Bruce; The pictures of the Stores gun do not appear on my set of comments on this thread,

Best Austin

[Bruce Day]

he put them in a separate album instead of the discussion

[Bill Murphy]

I don't think Frank Lefever and Son had anything to do with this gun.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Ron: Once you have been able to make the initial 1/8 turn, the rest is easy. Complete removal requires only that you continue to turn counter clockwise until the guard is free. As for a pic, a half turn would likely make all easily visible. The only concern is to ensure you have lifted the guard above the wood before turning but you will have already done that to achieve the 1/8 turn.

Jack

[RON SCORES]

ok jack you twisted my arm it is up....

[RON SCORES]

what is the 2 jack?

[John Dunkle]

Ron's multiple threads/posts have now been merged into one single thread.

Carry on.

John D.

[Dean Romig]

Ron, your Parker is an enigma.
It started life as a grade 2 but the engraving and checkering and the addition of the fleur de lis and checkered panel upgrades are the real parts to the puzzle.
We know what happened to the barrels... Remington rebarreled the gun.
The engraving coverage is what we would expect to see on a grade 5 or 6 but the quality and execution of the engraving are not up to Parker Bros. standards... possibly done by an engraver at Remington (although I doubt it) but not, in my opinion, done by Robert Runge.

Ready yourself for the very real possibility that you may never learn who made all those changes to 84025.

[Bruce Day]

Here are a series of photos.

1. The tang channel from the Scores gun showing the SN and Grade 2( G) stamps.

2. Details of the Scores gun stock showing the fleur dis lis details

3. Another of the Scores fleur dis lis detail

4. Overall view of the Scores gun stock

5. Comparision photo of the grip and fleur dis lis from a 1911 BHE, a typical to type B carving.

6. Comparision photo of the wood selection from the 1911 BHE, a typical wood selection for B and A grades.

[Bruce Day]

..... My guess is that the gun was sent to the factory for new barrels and upgrading engraving to C or B Grade including B Grade wood. The engraving was probably done by Robert Runge.....


Are you saying you think the stock carving and checkering is Remington factory work and that you believe the wood is B grade quality? I'm not sure I understand by what you mean about the Scores gun having " B grade wood".

To my novice eye, I see a difference between the Scores gun and the 1911 B grade, but then , I don't have a Rem Parker B grade to look at.

[Chuck Bishop]

Well if Bruce is just a novice Parker guy, what's below that because that's what I am. But I'll give you my opinion anyway!

It's a project gun, nothing more.

It started out as a GH and was sent to Remington for new barrels, that's pretty much given.

At some point in time, the buttstock was enhanced with B type checkering but not up to Parker or Remington standards. Notice the cheek panel is elongated and the border looks to be a single line extending back to form the fleur de lis. The pistol grip checkering has no mullard border or any border for that matter. From what I've seen, Remington Parker's had at least some type of border and Meriden Parker's had a mullard border. The serial number is correct under the tang and from the one picture of the buttstock, there appers to be the shield, not the oval at the bottom of the stock.

The forend is a different matter. The checkering appears to be correct for a BH Parker. Since the serial number is correct for the iron, my guess would be that a B forend wood was found, the engraving for the forend latch and tip were filed off for later engraving which was never done. The only way to find out if the wood is original or a replacement would be to pull the iron off the wood and look for the serial number on the forend wood just like was done on the buttstock. It would be good to look for the serial number on the forend tip also.

Who knows about the engraving on the receiver, it could have been done by Remington or an outside source. Only someone real familiar with Remington engraving could give a clue. Best source would be the Del Grego's.

A very interesting Parker but Special, no.

That's my take.

[Bruce Day]

To the point Chuck. Good analysis.

Bill, perhaps you could teach me what identifiers or characteristics you see in the Scores gun engraving that lead you to conclude that the engraving was done by Robert Runge or even Remington for that matter?

I've been taught that the Runge dogs are distinctive, and you know I have a 1939/1940 documented C with a whole pack of setters that have been attributed to Runge by long time Parker experts, not me of course.

[Bill Murphy]

I would back off on any statement I may have made about the source of the engraving and wood carving. I think it's a neat gun, but now have no opinion about the engraving and other decoration. It was so easy to think that Remington did everything that I let my imagination go wild. With better pictures of the engraving, maybe someone will have a new idea.

[Dave Noreen]

Maybe the upgrading of the engraving and checkering was done by Moran & Wolfersperger in Chicago when they installed their ejectors on the gun. They were on the verge of introducing their own single trigger, ejector, gun when they went belly up about 1905, and their ads said they had a complete staff capable of all manner of work. They had outbid Ansley H. Fox for the stock duplicating machines of Baltimore Arms Co. at the BAC receiver's sale in late 1904. After M&W dissolved, their aftermarket ejector business went to Gus Habich in Indianapolis by 1906, so it is also possible the work could have been done there. All speculation other than we know the gun at one time had M&W ejectors by the pin and the milled slots in the knuckle.

[Bruce Day]

Dave, thanks for the great historical information about the M & W company. That was new to me. I for one, would very much appreciate a Parker Pages article by you explaining the different sources and showing photo examples of various aftermarket ejectors and single triggers that were available. I would learn a lot and and value your knowledge. There was a gunsmith in Grand Forks ND who also did ejector work, but I could not identify his work if I saw it. I can't think of anybody better than you to write about these matters.

Bill, very gracious. I also value your Parker knowledge.

Very interesting to look at the Scores gun and an interesting exercise to think of what went on

[edgarspencer]

Ron, could you add a picture of the pistol grip cap to your album?

[RON SCORES]

Pictures up thanks.

[Bruce Day]

Ron, when you came on here, you said you needed a valuation for insurance purposes. I recommended J R Larue, as he could do an appraisal letter for you that would be suitable for an insurer. You can contact J R at jrlarue@hughes.net, or at 866 527 4440, although the number could be his at Julia's auction house.

Enjoy your interesting Parker.

[RON SCORES]

Thanks Bill yes I have spoke with Julia before with other items I had. I enjoyed the ride this forum is a wealth of knowledge. I learned alot and will stay tunned I hope I find other knowledgeable sites on the other guns and items I have. I do have some interesting pieces, not Parkers but english doubles and such. thanks to all...Ron

[RON SCORES]

You might just see it as well as other interesting things at Julia. My 2 girls will have no interest in my collection I have no sons to pass them on to.

[Bruce Day]

I invite you to join the PGCA. There are some good people here who know a lot more than me. I've been at this for a lot of years now and am still a beginner.

[Tom Carter]

Ron, You can adopt me. I'm available. Cheers, Tom

[RON SCORES]

:rotf::rotf:

[Bill Murphy]

The wear on the engraving at the side of the breech ball would indicate that the engraving may have been done way before the Remington-Parker era, maybe back in the time period of the trigger installation as Dave suggests.

[RON SCORES]

so we can stick with robert runge?

[Bruce Day]

so we can stick with robert runge?


no. There is no indication he did the work. That would be my novice opinion, but you should hear it from Bill Murphy.

[Bill Murphy]

No, in an earlier post, I have backed off that opinion and, because of the excess wear on the breech ball, I would think it was done long before Robert P. Runge engraved at Remington.

[Dean Romig]

I don't believe Robert Runge touched a graver to that gun.

[Austin W Hogan]

I think Bill is correct; that engraving was done early in that gun's life.

Best, Austin

[Steve McCarty]

IT IS HARD TO FIND AN EXPERT WHO STAYS HONEST WHEN HE THINKS HE CAN GET SOMETHING AT A GOOD PRICE. I HAD THIS EXPERICE WITH A NEPTUNE KREIGOFF DRILLING THE ONLY GUN I EVER SOLD AND KICK MY SELF EVERYDAY ABOUT IT...A FEW EXPERTS AT ORVIS HERE IN NY WHEN THE DID THE ANNUAL SHOOT. VALUED IT LOW AND TURNS OUT I SOLD IT FOR A THIRD OF ITS VALUE. BUT EVERYTHING HAS A PRICE AND I AM NOT SAYING THE GUN IS FOR SALE BUT ONE NEVER KNOWS WITH TAXES CLIMBING FUEL COSTS AND I HAVE TWO YOUNG DAUGHTERS I AM WORKING ON THERE FUTURE. BUT YES MY QUEST IF TO FIND OUT WHAT I CAN ABOUT THIS PARKER. AS WE CAN ALL AGREE IT IS DIFFERENT? WHO KNOWS WHO IT BELONGED TO AND WHY IT HAS BEEN ALTERED SO MUCH. MIGHT OF BEEN SOMEONE OF HIGH STATUS OR WEALTH. IT COMES FROM A PART OF NY WHERE MANY WEALTHY AND NOTABLE MEN WALKED OR SHOULD WE SAY HUNTED AT ONE TIME.

Please use the lower case. All caps is hard to read. Also all caps is translated as shouting, and you are not shouting. Thanks.