Aarrgh----Gunsmithing Question

[Bruce Day]

Ok, I have a 1921 PHE 16. A year ago Simmons had it in for rebrazing of the forend lug. Before that, it opened normally, you removed the forend, opened the lever and the barrels came off hammers cocked or hammers let down. After I got it back, the barrels will only come off if the hammers are fired.

So I removed the trigger plate tonight, but did not drive out the sear pin or remove the frame from the stock. I cleaned the cocking slide thoroughly with Rem Action Cleaner, cleaned everything, the cocking slide slides, everything looks fine to me. Then I reassembled the trigger plate to the frame, and nothing is changed. It still requires me to let down the hammers before I can remove the barrels. There is no rust , no crud , all the parts seem to move freely to me. I don't think this is a barrrel cocking hook problem, but that was unchanged and moves freely. The barrels will rotate up, then catch and not rotate all the way. The barrel cocking hook is obviously catching on the frame cocking crank and will not release.

When Simmons rebrazed the forend lug, they had to reblue the barrels, but that seems unrelated to this issue.

So, any ideas about what is wrong, yeah I can live with it, I have for the last year, but I am picky about my guns and this bugs me. Ultimately I can send it off to Lawrence DG and will if something is really wrong, but I can't figure this one.

[Bruce Day]

Its late and I kept at it until I found the problem. The cocking hook was not releasing because it was not retracting far enough back. That is because, grrrrrr, Simmons gunsmith put the cocking hook from another gun in my gun. I had two guns there, one was a 20ga for them to copy the barrels for other PGCA members. As you know, that didn't work out and when I got those barrels back, the cocking hook was gone, I made a special trip back and they fished around in a box of parts until they said they found it. But that cocking hook is from a gun ending in 004 , but it works properly.

So the cocking hook in the 16ga I left with them for the forend lug , they took out, obviously threw in the parts drawer, but luckily they put back in the cocking hook belonging to my pattern gun there. So now I have switched those around, and one gun has the right hook, but the other has a hook belonging to a 004. So I know Tom Carter had a gun there and maybe that was 004. So I might have his and if anybody has an 859 hook, that's mine. I'd like to trade with whoever has the 859 cocking hook, the gun is a favorite family gun and I take care of it.

Obviously Simmons, being Mod 12 people , didn't know that Parker parts were hand fitted and not necessarily interchangeable, and maybe some gunsmiths don't understand that you have to keep the parts straight when you are working on a gun.

[Dean Romig]

That's very good to know Bruce... not that parts from other Parkers might not fit properly - most of us know that - but that an esteemed gunsmithing company didn't know it.

[Bruce Day]

I've loaded two pictures, the first is the P cocking hook which doesn't retract far enough. The second is a cocking hook on a C which does retract far enough to allow the barrels to come off without releasing the hammers. You can see that the difference is very small but important and to somebody not experienced in Parkers, easily overlooked.

Fortunately the problem is solved but somebody still has my original cocking hook and I have his. Thankfully they didn't take apart the triggers or sears.

[John Dallas]

Have you tried contacting Simmons? Perhaps they can check their order book around that time and give you some leads. Maybe they log guns in by SN.

[Bruce Day]

No, John. They did not. But there were only a few guns there for the new barrels that Simmons said they were going to make, so I am hopeful I can track it down. I have a call in to my friend Tom Carter.

A person might think that when a part is serial numbered to a gun that it is specially fitted and should be put back into the same gun instead of being thrown into a parts drawer and mixed up, but .........

[Bill Murphy]

Bruce, this is a very diplomatic post considering the true story of the "Simmons Barrel Project".

[Austin W Hogan]

I don't think it is unusual to find differing numbers on small and internal Parker parts. I have found some on my own guns when having ejectors and triggers repaired. We found many locks and hammers with differing numbers when preparing the lock and hammer articlles for Parker Pages.

Best, Austin

[Bruce Day]

I certainly understand that. Circumstances may require that salvaged parts be purposefully put into another gun when the parts break or become excessively worn, and then they might have to be fitted to the gun.

Best,
Bruce

[Eric Eis]

I certainly understand that. Circumstances may require that salvaged parts be purposefully put into another gun when the parts break or become excessively worn, and then they might have to be fitted to the gun.

Best,
Bruce

But that is not the reason here, is it...?:cuss:

[Dean Romig]

I suspect a lot of that was done at Meriden and even some at Ilion but at least those workers knew that the pieces would need hand fitting.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Simmons ain't what they used to be and haven't been for a long time. I've known this for quite awhile, hopefully the barrel thing confirmed it for everybody else.


Destry

[Francis Morin]

best way IMO- to insure proper parts pertaining to Parkers when dis-or re-assembling same- use masking tape and magic marker pen- number them in order as you remove them- especially since Parker guns had "indexed screws"-- sure sign of a ham-fisted bozo when you see miss-timed screws with boogered up slots on a Parker-

About three years ago I sent a set of 12 gauge FWE 28" field grade LC Smith (Armor steel) to Simmons for a friend in Iowa- he had his father's 12 FWE Ideal with ruptured barrels due to snow obstruction in a Winter rabbit hunt=-they did a first class job for him-- But I agree with Bruce and others, any competent gunsmith will strive to keep ALL the parts with the particular gun upon which he is working at that point in time-:bigbye::cool::cool:

[Jim Williams]

Its late and I kept at it until I found the problem. The cocking hook was not releasing because it was not retracting far enough back. That is because, grrrrrr, Simmons gunsmith put the cocking hook from another gun in my gun.


I'd just like to add that I'm glad YOU figured this out, because I don't think any of us "internet gunsmiths" would have EVER thought of that!

It is sad to think that a company that thought they could make Parker barrels didn't know that parts weren't interchangeable...

Jim

[Chris Travinski]

Interchangable or not, even if I sent a dime store Remington 870 to a shop for repair I would expect to get all of MY parts back. I don't know what to make of that, hard to believe a shop could do such a thing, but unfortuantely there are alot of those guys out there.

[Bruce Day]

I've talked to Tom Carter and unfortunately, he doesn't have a 004 SN gun. So, if anybody had a gun at Simmons for the new barrels they were going to make, its possible theirs is the 004 gun with my 859 cocking hook in it. Trade you.

[lee r moege]

I agree with Destry about the decline in the work now done in Olathe. BTW Bruce I have used J.J. Perideaux at Champlin in Enid as he is a Marcel Thys trained man and his work for me has always been first class. Besides I can drive there in 3 1/2 hours. I also had a loop come loose on an "Elsie" 20 gage and took it to Mike Allee there in Kansas City,who has done some "French Gray" for me on some custom rifles, and he resoldered it with a high strength low temp solder that didn't mess up the original (85%) blue. To top it all off, the gun had some slight looseness between the barrels and frame when in the open position but not when closed even with the forend off. When the loop was resoldered all trace of looseness is gone and it"snaps" shut characteristic of rotary top bolt guns. I think the loop was loose when I bought it but was undetectable until I shot a couple rounds of clays with it. I took the forend (beavertail) off and the loop came with it. I found also the Baker Type spring forend attatchment is more prone to this than a latch type (Deeley) or a pushrod (Anson) fastener. Have a great one!! Lee.:bigbye:

[Francis Morin]

I agree with Destry about the decline in the work now done in Olathe. BTW Bruce I have used J.J. Perideaux at Champlin in Enid as he is a Marcel Thys trained man and his work for me has always been first class. Besides I can drive there in 3 1/2 hours. I also had a loop come loose on an "Elsie" 20 gage and took it to Mike Allee there in Kansas City,who has done some "French Gray" for me on some custom rifles, and he resoldered it with a high strength low temp solder that didn't mess up the original (85%) blue. To top it all off, the gun had some slight looseness between the barrels and frame when in the open position but not when closed even with the forend off. When the loop was resoldered all trace of looseness is gone and it"snaps" shut characteristic of rotary top bolt guns. I think the loop was loose when I bought it but was undetectable until I shot a couple rounds of clays with it. I took the forend (beavertail) off and the loop came with it. I found also the Baker Type spring forend attatchment is more prone to this than a latch type (Deeley) or a pushrod (Anson) fastener. Have a great one!! Lee.:bigbye:-- IMO- early extractor Smiths had a not 100$ secure latching system- but the Curtis system for extractor Smiths from 1914-1920 was a great design- IMO-- too bad there was a patent right lawsuit- plus the Bros. Hunter going into the $ crapper with their waterway/canal project that drained the gun works of needed capital--:bigbye::bigbye:

[lee r moege]

Agreed on the "Curtis" fastener. This little girl is a 1947 Hunter Arms Marlin in the Featherweight Deluxe Field edition according to the original order form and was ordered with a pad (Jostam), checkered beavertail forend, and the "single sighting plane" high rib. It is choked full/xfull with 28" barrels. The wood is serialed to the gun and since it's a Marlin Field, the snap on beavertail. I got it from the original owner who worked for and ordered it through W.A.L. Thompson Hardware Co. in Topeka, Kansas. I just had to have one Smith. Lee.