A "Market Glut" perhaps

[Francis Morin]

I realize the DJA and the NYSE went down the tubes, but boy howdy a careful perusal of all the gun auction sites- lotsa Parkers out there for sale- any comments???:cool:

[Bob Jurewicz]

I agree a lot for sale, however, pricing (asking) has not changed that much. There are bargains to be had but you have to search hard. Seems the Repros are down significantly.
Bob Jurewicz

[Dean Romig]

There are some who must sell their guns and there are some who don't need to sell.
Those who must sell do so at a reduced value.
Those who are not forced to sell offer their guns at their actual value.

[Bruce Day]

There were many collectors who bought Parkers 30 or so years ago. Some of those people are reducing their collections now as they age. I am the beneficiary of a couple of those people. They bought nice guns then and I appreciate their good judgement.

[Francis Morin]

[quote=Bruce Day;47855]There were many collectors who bought Parkers 30 or so years ago. Some of those people are reducing their collections now as they age. I am the beneficiary of a couple of those people. They bought nice guns then and I appreciate their good judgment-- We all do- I am amazed at the high prices for Damascus barreled PH and GH guns, many in very well worn condition and with pits in the barrels-- cut off stocks- yet some of the dealers listing on the various gun auction/sales websites extant are asking $3500 plus-- many make the mistake of listing the numerical grade stamp as found on the watertable as the frame size- a Lady seller on Guns Americana has a nice looking DH 20- 28" Titanic Steel barrels that she (or her designated agent) has listed as being on a Number 3 frame-- I'll pay good foldin' money to see a original factory ordered 20 Parker on a number 3 frame-Then we have those who listed their guns as having ejectors, not knowing the difference between them and extractors. The best "Lulu" I've seen to date was one of the Eastern Cabelas Gun Library listings at $2500 for a 4 digit DH, retrofitted with a Trojan barrel set (No 2 frame of course) and Trojan forearm, and the doll's head between the breech balls "epoxy-treated" to fill the gap between the original barrel top rib extension and that of the first series on the Trojan grades- Wow!!:corn::corn::corn::p:p:p:p:p:eek::eek::eek::e ek::eek::eek::eek:

[Bruce Day]

Francis, that's what I mean about looking through the rocks to find the gold nugget.

Some time ago I posted pictures without comment of a very nice little gun. I happened to know the gun was completely redone and that it was sold first for $14,000, then returned when the buyer and others found refinishing indications. A realistic price would have been $8,000. The seller next sold the gun for $17,000 to a new gun dealer and said it was unshot original. I looked at gun on the new dealers table, he had $22,000 on it and said he was new to Parkers and wanted to start dealing in them because thats where the money was. He was right, that's where the money was. Be careful out there. As stated on the old mariner's charts, " there be dragons."

[Ed Blake]

There has been and there currently are a number of interesting Parkers out there for sale for a wide range of budgets. I spoke to an older gentleman this week who is thinning out his gunsafe, but has no urgent need to sell.

[Dean Romig]

There are examples everywhere of questionable Parkers with price tags that would "choke a horse". The thing we must be very careful of is NOT to say these guns are selling for these crazy prices because they are NOT. The figure on the tag or the 'starting price' on gunbroker or some such auction site IS NOT the price the gun has sold for and you will see these same guns rotating around the auction sites week after week and month after month.... sometimes even year after year at those same prices. It has been said before and I will take this opportunity to say it again... Caveat Emptor!!

[David Dwyer]

Dean
You are absolutely right!!! I have seen several decent Parkers just playing "musical tables" among a group of dealers in the past year or so. I have also seen a BIG difference between ask and sell prices on decent guns. The small gage high condition Parkers are still up there but the to sell anything else sharpen your pencil! A good time to pick up some new family members?
David

[Francis Morin]

Dean
You are absolutely right!!! I have seen several decent Parkers just playing "musical tables" among a group of dealers in the past year or so. I have also seen a BIG difference between ask and sell prices on decent guns. The small gage high condition Parkers are still up there but the to sell anything else sharpen your pencil! A good time to pick up some new family members?
David-- The best looking 12 gauge Parkers at going market prices I have seen from dealers- to my mind anyway- seem to be at Steve Barnett and Stephen Cobb--but I haven't seen them all. I tried to log onto to Chadick's- but keep getting a "server FUBAR notice"-- I still prefer to buy direct from brother PGCA members whenever possible--:bigbye:

[Steve McCarty]

I own a Fox gun, a like new I grade Lefever, an heirloom Knickerbacher (prolly a Crescent) sidelock of 1906, A Parker SC SBT, and a Parker GH, as well as a slew of Win Model 12s, a Superposed, two Ithaca 37's, and many others.

I just bought my GH and am now an official Parker collector, and as such am perusing the on line auction/sales sites. I paid $1500 for the SBT and $999 for the GH both in what I call excellent original condition. Just as in the Winchester Model 12 guns, I see a great many refurbished Parkers. Looks like someone takes a $1,000 Parker and then puts another grand in rework and asks $4,000 for the gun, pocketing a cool $2K - or more.

Sure like new Parkers are pretty things, but if the condition is fake how much of that non-authenticity transfers to the gun? The question is, concerning condition, how bad is so bad, that the gun isn't worth much and will benefit from a make-over? That is the sixty-four dollar question and frankly I don't have an answer. Does anyone? Okay, it's a matter of personal choice, but when taking about fine Parkers we are talking about guns that will be around long after we aren't, and we do have a responsibility not only to the Parker, but to history as well.

I have purchased like new refurbished guns and a few that were redone and not too well, but were also dirt cheap. Unless inexpensive, I would shy away from a highly redone Parker, but does everyone? The prices certainly don't support that premise.

[Dave Suponski]

Steve, Looks like you are developing quite an interest in the Parker Gun. You should consider joining the PGCA. There are areas that are not available to "Forum" members and there is some great added value for members.

[Francis Morin]

You've got some fine shootin' irons. Believe it is Knickerbocker- as in the second series Ithaca SBT's and also the old family brewing Co. (Genesse Ale) of which Bob Wehle was a family member- he of Pointer bird dog fame.

I am a "non-collector", after reading Mr. Calibi's book on Ernest Hemingway's guns over the years, I find a few common threads to my "working arsenal" to that of the late "Don Ernesto" First off, it has to shoot reliably, and to where I am looking/pointing- proper fit, balance. The wear with care or other "cosmetic items" not important, fit, balance, trigger pulls, and function come first. I do a lot of rifle, handgun and shotgun shooting year around (pretty much) but am not a paper puncher with the rifles and handguns, nor a clays man with the "escopetas" I shoot varmints, and shotguns for crows and barn pigeons for my practice work.

The late Mike McIntosh talked about a friend who back around 1988 (Best Guns) bought a 12 VH Parker- in good shooting order, and spent $1500 having it "restored' and when he sold it, got back his initial purchase price plus about 15% of the restoration cost--

Back in 2007 when the double gun market was a bit different, over 6 months I bought a: 1929 VH 12 30" No 1& 1/2 frame, restored by Turnbull- and a LC Smith O grade 12 30" R frame, also restored by Turnbull. Both guns were bought privately, and the sellers had the documents from Turnbull Restorations to verify it- I couldn't stand to shoot them- too pristine, compared to my older pre-1913 graded Elsies and my project GHE 12- so I sold them both and doubled my money. I doubt very seriously if i could expect to do that again in today's market-

Glad you like the Model 12's as do I. I grew up shooting them- have 7 right now- 5 in 12 (two are 3" Duck models) a 20 field and a 20 skeet. Never have owned a M42 however-

Anyway, let your wallet be your guide, but join the PGCA and ask all the questions about Parkers you like- we have some members that know Parkers like the Pope knows his way around the Vatican..:bigbye::bigbye:

[Steve McCarty]

Thanks O&P. I think the spelling is Kickerbocher.http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Gun%20Stuff/Lefevershotgun006.jpg It was my dad's gun, made in 1906 and is a sidelock. Looks like a Lefever. Speaking of Lefever's here is mine:

[Steve McCarty]

I love my little Lefever. It's been redone by Kearchner (sp?) and is in nearly new condition, as you can see. It is very light and fast. Thin barrels. Fits me fine and has light crisp trigger pulls. It's a little hard to get it off of safety however, but I hesitate to start filing. The gun wasn't terribly expensive, a pawn shop find.

[Francis Morin]

First class work from a first class gunsmith indeed. Although the Uncle Dan's are nota true sidelock, like my beloved Elsies, they are excellent guns, and Dan LeFever, like Baker and Charles A. King were gun-genius-gurus, ahead of their time for their developments in side-by-side shotguns as they progressed from muzzle loader to breech loaders, and from hammer guns to hammerless ejector guns--

I bought a LeFever DS 20 bore (Durston Special) named for one of the BOD members of the LeFever Gun Co. I am told- 28" DT Ejectors- 6 lbs and some oz.- sweet handling grouse gun, and not so ornate that you would be afraid to use in the the thick nasties of grouse coverts--I later traded it for one of the two 3" M12 Magnum duck guns I own and shoot- but I wish I had kept it-:banghead::banghead::banghead::cool:

[Steve McCarty]

Keith Kercher lives a few miles from my home and I know him well and have used his excellent gunsmithing services several times. He has done some really fine things to some of my way over the hill guns. One an 1840's Irish muzzle loader marked "Richards" on the back action lock and on my old Hardy Bros muzzle loading double. He also did the work on the "I" grade Lefever that I own. I did not see the gun until after it was done and ended up in the pawn shop. They sent the gun to him. He took the bulge out of the barrel in my Spanish double that obviously the original owner tried to force some steel shot through. Not good. Nearly destroyed the gun. Now it looks wonderful. It had already been re-blued once and the markings were gone, so I asked Keith to do it again and he did and outstanding job. He uses nothing but old techniques that fit the original chemical processes used on the gun when it was born. Don't fine shotguns live? Of course they do.

Kercher is an expert on Lefevers and does a lot of work for their collector society. He can also touch a gun just lightly enough to spruce it up a bit, just a little off around the ears, and not make it look like a total face lift. As you can tell, I recommend his work. He hasn't advertised until just recently.

[Steve McCarty]

As I write this there is an 00 Elsie and a Trojan on the rack at the local pawnshop. The Elsie has been there for a year or more. Rough shape, and the black forearm tip has been busted and the wood damaged. Damascus. Dark, but okay bore. Wood looks black, but it's all there. They started at $1700 and now it is a "make an offer gun".

The Trojan hasn't been there as long. They want $1100. It's rough too, but I see some case color. Screws buggered, wood black. Bores okay. I don't think it's been cut at either end. Since I just layed out a G for my GH I'm gun poor and can't make any offers.

While a Trojan is a Parker they just don't blow my shirt up. Someday I'll get one, probably. I can't decide if I want the Trojan or the Elsie more. I'd probably spring for the Trojan, however; I don't own an Elsie, but I read that they crack. But as I said, I'm gun poor, just bought four, three Win Model 12s which I love and the GH. You see I have it pretty bad.

[Steve McCarty]

I too read the new book about Hemingway and his guns by Calabi, Helsley and Sanger. My wife gave it for me as a gift. Since Papa loved his Model 12 I went out and bought three more, I already had a 20 gauge. Now Pat wishes she hadn't bought me the book.

I'm in my third Hemingway phase. I've done it twice before, once while in high school, once while I was overseas in the Marine Corps and now. My opinions of him have changed as I have changed. Just finished the bio of Valery Hemingway, who was Papa's daughter in law. She married Gregory, aka Gigi. She was also Hem's personal secretary for 18 months or so, this before she got hitched to Gigi. They met as Hem's funeral and married five years later. He had a pretty weird life too. Became a doctor, decided he liked to wear women's duds, which he'd done since a little boy and then he had a sex change operation when he got older! Changed his name to Gloria! Can you believe it?! He was estranged from his famous papa for a long time. Gee I wonder why! Gigi however was one heck of a shotgun shot, even when young.

Hem owned a Win model 12 and a Parker too I understand, but no mention of the latter in the book. Hem was a freak for Win model 21's and had a wonderful Beretta sidelock O/U. It's extant somewhere. Most of his guns have been lost. Mary gave most to Abecrombie and Fitch to be resold as used guns. People who bought them did not know they'd been owned by Hemingway. Maybe the salesmen didn't know either. The W.C. Scott that he used to blow his brains out "removed his entire cranial vault" was cut up by order of Patrick, his middle son, who was following Hem's fourth wife, Mary's directive. The bits burned and buried. Some pieces have been found, but she'll never shoot again! I think it was damascus btw and he didn't hesitate to shoot heavy loads in it.

Was Ernest Hemingway a smuck or a prince? I haven't made up my mind, which is what draws me to the study of the fellow. I haven't even decided if I like his writing or not, and I've read it all and most of the bios. I'll tell you two things about him however, he was a pretty good bird shot and he drank like a fish.

[Steve McCarty]

Here is one of my Model 12. Hemingways gun was made in 1928, this beauty shot her first in 1923 and has short chambers. I like guns that show honest wear. Obviously loved by someone and I wish I could have accompanied this old gun on all of her hunts. What fun she must have had.

Yeah, I know, not a fine double. Not even a fine gun. But I like her nevertheless.http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/P1010575.jpg