Parker Double Trap.

[Frank Allegra]

Larry Baer wrote that he believed the Parker double traps were possibly the rarest Parkers. Is this true?

Can anyone comment on the the existence of Parker Double 32" trap guns in gauges other than 12ga. How rare are they in 16 or 20? Is there a known production number?

[Bruce Day]

See the 1937 Parker catalog for specifications. "Made in 12 gauge only" according to the catalog.

206 were made in various grades and barrel lengths from 30 to 34, according to the chapter in TPS on trap and skeet guns, see p. 402.

I think Baer unintendedly overstated a bit , but they certainly are uncommon. You don't see many of them but if a person wanted to find one and made it known, I suspect one would appear. There are some smaller gauge guns with vent ribs, but I don't think you could properly call those "Double Trap". There are other groups of Parkers that are much rarer.

The Double Traps are very much a specialized gun, so I found when I owned one. The rib slopes down and the gun is designed to shoot high for a rising target. I have shot Parkers with vent ribs other than the Double Traps and I did not find that they were sighted to shoot high. For its intended purpose, I think a Double Trap is a perfect gun.

[Ed Blake]

A single trigger seems to be part of the TPS definition of a Double Trap. My 32" DHE has all the features of a Double Trap except a single trigger. It's choked .15 and .35 so I feel fairly confident it has shot a few doubles in it's day. Anyone else out there with a double trigger "double trap?"

[David Holes]

I have not figured a name for my trap gun. It is a DH, splinter, double trigger, and vent rib. It was an early production vent rib.

[Bruce Day]

David, yours is a DH with vent rib option. The Double Trap as a catalog item came in 1937 and was specifically designed for double trap clay shooting and had the high, flat rib, and the ones I have seen, the rib sloped down to shoot high. There are many vent rib guns out there that were undoubtedly used for shooting trap that are not the same.

[gordon smith]

I have a GHE 32" vent rib that was made for D.W. Flannigan . The letter calls it a trap gun. It has a single trigger.. Ser# is 238828

[Dean Romig]

What should we call John Dunkle's AAHE then? It was made before 1937... and the 1929 CHE Double Trap I owned (230760) had every option available including the ventilated rib that sloped down to the muzzles. Are they only to be considered "Double Trap" guns if they were made in or after '37 when that term may have been first 'coined'?

[Dave Suponski]

My 12 gauge full/full 32" VHE vent rib,single trigger,non automatic safety,trap forend and rubber butt was built in 1927. It is a documented trap gun. I think the confusion starts when people believe that if a style of gun is not in the catalog when that particular gun was built than it's not original.

Parker Bros. were building guns with many of these options before they were listed in catalogs.As an example.Trap model forends were being fitted to existing guns as early as the 1923 catalog.

[Russ Jackson]

Just for conversation purposes , Would this be considered a " Double Trap " ,Way earlier than 1937 ," Serial #27425 " 1882 " This is one of the very early H & D Folsum ,Trap Guns according to TPS ,Page; 392 , With a letter of provenance from the PGCA ? Russ10064

[Russ Jackson]

Trying to get a better pic. of the Butt Plate where we can read Trap Gun ! Russ

[Bruce Day]

xxxx

[Bruce Day]

Dean, depends on whether you are talking about the specific 1937 cataloged Double Trap or whether about hundreds of other double barrelled vent rib guns of various grades and gauges that could be used for shooting trap, skeet or game. TPS lists a lot of vent rib guns. And not all guns that were likely used mainly for trap were vent rib.

I had a discussion with Mark Conrad about the TPS numbers, and it was his opinion that there were a lot more late vent rib guns than were identified in the SN book. There were a lot of late small bore guns too, so maybe it follows that there were a lot of late small bore vent ribs that exist and are not in the books.

[Frank Allegra]

Thank you all for posting. I am assuming that the trap is not as rare Mr Baer leads me to believe. I am assuming that the above are all 12 gauge guns. Are they out there in any other than 12 gauge? Russ, thanks for sharing the photos of you marked trap gun. Very nice.

[Russ Jackson]

You are welcome Frank ,and I didn't mention ,but my gun in the serialization Book is listed as a 30" 12 Ga. ,in fact it is a , 32", 10 Ga. w/ Lam. Barrels that letters correctly through the PGCA Letter ! Russ

[Bruce Day]

Frank, its pretty unusual to find a small bore vent rib gun, but they are out there, if that is what you mean. If you have a line on one, it would be worth taking a close look at.

Your question could be more precise, because of the ambiguity of calling something a "trap" gun. I have a good friend with a 28" Bernard C, double trigger, splinter forend , Parker flat vent rib. Trap gun? I don't know. I have another friend with a 28ga D, 30" , narrow beavertail, vent rib, flat vent rib. Trap gun?

[David Holes]

Russ, did the letter say that it was a trap gun?

[Dave Suponski]

Russ, That's a wonderful gun. We know that HD Folsom ordered many of these guns with the "Trap" butt plate on them. I suspect they were long barreled 12's and 10's and that the special butt treatment was a sales pitch to sway buyers who were looking for a dedicated trap gun. As we all know trap shooting in that era was as big as major league baseball if not bigger and everyone wanted a piece of the pie.

[Dean Romig]

I agree with you wholeheartedly Dave, on that point.

Russ, yours certainly isn't a 'single trap' so it must be the other...

I think we've covered this ground a couple of years ago on this forum and I believe the term "Double Trap" is somewhat nebulous in that there are various definitions depending on who's defining the term.

Further, I don't believe that a vent rib on a 12 ga. gun, or any other gauge for that matter, necessarily makes it a trap gun but if it was made specifically for trap shooting - live pigeons or clays, as a competition gun, it is a trap gun.

[Pete Lester]

The Double Trap as a catalog item came in 1937 and was specifically designed for double trap clay shooting and had the high, flat rib, and the ones I have seen, the rib sloped down to shoot high.

I don't see any reference to being specifically designed for shooting "trap doubles" in the '37 catalog.

It is formally called "Parker Double Barrel Trap Gun" rather than Double Trap. It is preceeded in the catalog by the "Parker Skeet Gun" and followed by the "Parker Single Barrel Trap Gun".

The Catalog states it was 12ga only and chambered for 2 3/4" shells. SST and BTFE were standard. Hawkin Pad was standard, option of any other make of pad. 30 or 32 inch barrels, both full choke, option of any other barrel length or boring. Ivory bead front and rear, red bead if desired. Non automatic safety standard , auto safety optional,

CPG stock standard, straight or half pistol grip optional. Standard dimensions 14 3/8" LOP, 1 7/8 DAH", 1 1/2" DAC. Any other stock measurement including cheek piece, monte carlo or cast off could be made.

A Remington built gun that has the above features would be a "Double Trap"

There were many double barrel guns ordered and built for trapshooting before this was marketed.

[Dean Romig]

I think the 1937 Remington Parker term "Parker Double Barrel Trap Gun", or even "Double Trap" wherever it may be printed, was likely a marketing strategy.

[Jeff Kuss]

Russ,
Your HD Folsum gun appears to be in better condition than most you find. They usually had the hell shot out of them.

[Bruce Day]

Pete, I'm assuming that the 1937 Parker Double Barrel Trap Gun ( and I probably should have been more precise when I called it a Double Trap) was for shooting trap doubles. I shoot some trap , not much, but would these shooters buy a double barreled gun over a single barreled trap gun if they are shooting singles trap?

I don't know, I'm asking.

[John Truitt]

We are hitting all around the answer. I agree with Mr. Romig that the terminology is most likely a marketing strategy.
Mr. Day also brings up a great point in that we now must factor in the single barrel trap gun. So how would Parker market its products/ keep up with the competition/ etc offer a gun for skeet, double trap, american (singles) trap.
The name just designates some features. Certainly does not define what one would need or have to have to compete. (look how the guns/ features changed from 1890's to 1920's, etc. Compare to todays o/u's. Everyone wants these tall ribs for "upright posture". Always a fade or new thing to continue to sell products)

As far as the beavertail fore end goes. They were being fitted/ made much earlier than they were cataloged. I have one that letters correct in 1917. (the gun was certainly used for doubles trap, she has provenance to prove such. 34" barrels, raised solid rib, no saftey, large fore end, pistol grip, monte carlo stock, specific chokes in each tube, 2 7/8" chambers, lots of special requests on this gun)

The repeating theme for Parkers is you cant say never/ no way. They always seem to suprise us. :)

[Pete Lester]

Pete, I'm assuming that the 1937 Parker Double Barrel Trap Gun ( and I probably should have been more precise when I called it a Double Trap) was for shooting trap doubles. I shoot some trap , not much, but would these shooters buy a double barreled gun over a single barreled trap gun if they are shooting singles trap?

I don't know, I'm asking.

I don't know Bruce other than it is personal preference. Why do many of today's shooters buy Perazzi and Kreighoff over and unders to shoot 16yd and handicap, and the same shooter never shoots a round of doubles? Both gunmakers make singles. Go to any ATA shoot, O/U's are the most popular gun in the gun racks. Then look at the number of squads for each event. Generally the number of shooters participating in the doubles event will be 1/3 or less then participate in the singles, yet the O/U is the most popular.

One reason to buy a double barrel trap gun over a single barrel would be the ability to use the double barrel trap gun for hunting.

Another reason to buy a double barrel trap over the SBT is the shooter wants to shoot all three games; singles, handicap and doubles and they want to stick with the same gun. Or the buyer thinks someday they might try shooting doubles.

The SBT of any make is a very specialized gun with limited applications and has not been as popular as O/U's and Semi's at ATA shoots. The Parker was even more specialized in that it was built in A, B. and C grade whereas the Remington double barrel trap came in the more pedestrian offerings of V and G grade. I'll bet a Remington VHE Double Barrel trap gun was less $ than an SC SBT, so price could have been a factor in purchasing a double barrel trap for singles and caps shooters too.

The SBT predates the Remington Double Barrel Trap. Double Barrel's purpose built for trap shooting predate the introduction of the SBT. Like the "Skeet" gun the Remington/Parker Trap Gun was purpose built with features appealing to a trapshooter and purpose marketed to trapshooters. It was 1937, the Parker Gun was on the ropes. They were trying to sell guns.

The two most important features for a doublegun to be better for trap doubles, aside from the customary long barrels, tight chokes and straight dimensions, is the BTFE and SST. Barrels really get hot in doubles and the SST does make for a faster second shot in that game IMO. Those features existed long before this gun came out.

There is nothing special about a shotgun used for shooting trap doubles other than some shooters like a little more open choke on the first shot (and it needs to fire two shots). This gun was marketed to the trapshooter who wanted to use a Parker side by side, whether the game was singles, caps or doubles IMO.

This debate would be so much easier if they stamped the barrels "Trap 1" and "Trap 2" or "Trap Close" and "Trap Far" :)

[Larry Frey]

We are hitting all around the answer. I agree with Mr. Roming

Please be careful John, Mr. Romig gets very sensitive about his last name.:rolleyes:

[David Holes]

I'm curious when the game of trap doubles originated. Assuming it was later then the game of trap itself. Any idea on the date of trap doubles.

[Dave Suponski]

David, I'm not sure when it originated.I know it has been an Olympic event since 1996.

[John Truitt]

No offense meant. Just sloppy typing.
Sorry about that.

[Frank Allegra]

Again, thanks to all for posting. My initial posting was just a question based on a section in Larry Baer's book "The Parker Gun" . I now see the problem about posting about the Double Trap. I believe that the authors was referring to a Parker Double with 32" vent ribbed barrel, BTFE, selective trigger and recoil pad which was called the double trap. He did say that because of the late production of this type of gun, it was assumed to be one of the rarest. In another section he also did say that he thought the skeet grade marked skeet/in skeet/out to possibly be more rare that the trap. Very confusing to someone like myself that has always liked doubles but has more recently been drawn to Parkers.

To continue to the other part of my question....how rare would it be to see a 32" double with vent ribbed barrel, BTFE, and all the other features of the trap guns in a gauge other that 12 gauge.

I'm going to be looking at a supposedly mentioned trap gun with the above features but in 16 gauge and need some input from the experts.

[Pete Lester]

I'm curious when the game of trap doubles originated. Assuming it was later then the game of trap itself. Any idea on the date of trap doubles.

The only thing I could find quickly was the first recorded 100 straight in Trap Doubles was shot in 1926.

[Dave Suponski]

Frank, According to TPS there were 206 guns made that match the double trap description.Believe it or not most of them were D grade guns

[Bill Murphy]

In the big, big, trapshooting state of Pennsylvania, in 1937, 494 shooters shot singles and handicap. 107 shot doubles. I mean 107 people shot at least one pair of doubles. Most doubles shooters shot 100 to 300 birds. The high volume double shooter in the state shot a Model 12. I know this because I own his gun. He shot 1450 doubles birds. Hardly anyone else shot anywhere near that many birds. Doubles was not and is not a big game in ATA. No one bought a new Parker in 1937 to shoot doubles. They bought them because they were neat guns and had a choke for 16 yards and a choke for handicap. And they could shoot doubles with them, but that was not their primary purpose. Parkers with high stocks, single triggers, and beavertails, and long barrels made in 1929 are absolutely identical to guns made to catalog specs as trap guns in 1937. The 1937 catalog entry is an advertising thing by Remington, not a new gun.

[Frank Allegra]

Dave, Thank you.
That was the kind of info I was looking for. Not only were they D grades but I would guess they would also be 12ga guns. A correct assumption?

[Bill Murphy]

Yes they were 12 gauge guns. Trap configured Parker shotgun in smaller gauges are very rare. To add to the information you were requesting, Capt. Grier, together with Walter Beaver, were the high average doubles shooters in 1937 with a .9300 average. Now I realize I not only own the high volume doubles shooter's gun from PA in 1937, Jim Stinson's Ulrich engraved Pigeon Grade Model 12, I also own the high national average doubles gun for 1937, Captain Grier's Model 21. I don't write a lot of checks, but I keep my nose to the ground and talk to a lot of people. Remember that pump guns were very popular for doubles events. Rudy Etchen proved that. I don't own Rudy's gun yet, but I'm working on it.

[Frank Allegra]

Thanks Bill,
Congrats on your collection of fine historical guns and good luck in acquiring your desired future purchases.

[Christopher Lien]

Again, thanks to all for posting.
To continue to the other part of my question....how rare would it be to see a 32" double with vent ribbed barrel, BTFE, and all the other features of the trap guns in a gauge other that 12 gauge.
________________________

Frank,
There were a number of companies back in the day that did conversions and upgrades adding BT forearms, after market vent ribs, and single triggers to make a Parker more resemble an original "Trap Configured" gun...

The degree of rarity based on the gun you have asked about (a small bore "Trap Configured" Parker) would depend greatly on condition and whether it was equipped with all original Parker options, or, after market ad-on's... Make sure you know the difference between the two (original vs non-original) before you lay your money on the table... Below is a photo of two DHE's, at left a 12ga, and at right a 20ga, both with 32" vent rib's... In addition to occasionally busting clays, they were also enjoyed hunting as well...

Best, CSL
____________________________________

http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1ParkerVentsGeese1.jpg
.

[Frank Allegra]

Chris,
I will be cautious but thanks for the heads-up.

[Fred Preston]

Here's a couple of small bore "trap guns". Top is a DHE, SST, BTF, VR, 30" bbls. Bottom is a VHE, SST, no safety, 32" bbls. I think I have posted this pic before.

[Dean Romig]

Again, thanks to all for posting. I'm going to be looking at a supposedly mentioned trap gun with the above features but in 16 gauge and need some input from the experts.


Frank, let me suggest that you take a good number of pictures of the gun and post them here. We will try to lend assistance as to its originality. It may very well be all original... but then, maybe not.

[Dean Romig]

Please, someone correct me if I am wrong. It is my understanding that when trap was in its youth here in America, and live pigeons were released from the 'traps' a shooter was allowed two shots at the bird and it was determined to be a 'dead bird' even if it was killed with the second shot... and a miss if both shots failed to bring the bird down. If a shooter cared to compete in this early game with a single barrel shotgun he would be handicapping himself, right?

[Frank Allegra]

Is there any way to check to see how a gun left the factory if I were to get the serial #?

[Christopher Lien]

Is there any way to check to see how a gun left the factory if I were to get the serial #?
_________________________

Frank, Yes, there is a serial number list of the vent/rib guns in the Parker Story books, and there is also the possibility of a research letter through the PGCA held Parker/Remington records... Get a serial number and photos, that is a good first step...

Best, CSL
______________________________

[Frank Allegra]

Can someone look up # 230719 for me please.

[Pete Lester]

Can someone look up # 230719 for me please.

230719 is not in the serialization book and according to the website there is no information available for a research letter.

[Dean Romig]

The stock book for that serial number range is missing. I had a gun in that range too and wished I could have got a letter on it.

[Russ Jackson]

Russ, did the letter say that it was a trap gun?

David ,The letter does not say " Trap " But the gun was sold by H & D Folsom in the correct time period or just very early in the correct time period and does have the Trap Butt Plate ,There are others that have these guns and I don't believe any of them were called Trap Guns in the letters ,but as Dave says ,probably a marketing pitch ,also we have covered this ground a while back as Dean has said and I just tossed this out there for a little fun conversation ! Russ

[Austin W Hogan]

DH(E) Parkers, stocked and choked to the shooters specification, were the choice of some of history's best live and clay trapshooters from 1890 to 1920. PGCA's John Browning gun is a good example. "Trap fore ends" ventilated ribs and single triggers began to appear prior to WW I ( John Dunkle's gun) and became more popular with time until production ended.
The Winchester M12 and M97 were probably the most popular trap guns of the first half of the twentieth century. Many ordinary 16 yd singles shooters continued to prefer the SxS as the two barrels provided a forward weight bias and a smoother swing.

Best, Austin

[Frank Allegra]

A few photos. She appears correct to me. She has seen some changes through her life and she is not single trigger. Her dimensions are 1 1/2"-2 5/8" to an extended 15 LOP.

[Dean Romig]

Frank, your Parker has all the attributes of a Parker trap gun with the exception of the double triggers and the lack of two ivory beads. However, double triggers could have be ordered by the original owner. The vent rib is original Parker Bros and can be verified by the last three digits of the serial number stamped on the underside of the rib between posts 2 & 3 (if memory serves me) from the breech. It has the flat top of the breech to accomodate the vent rib barrels and it appears to have a longer than normal beavertail forend.

[Christopher Lien]

A few photos. She appears correct to me. She has seen some changes through her life and she is not single trigger.
______________________________________

Frank, Yes, she has a few bumps, but I'd say that's a bona-fide 16ga vent rib 1-frame trap configured Parker... Not sure what photo Dean is looking at to see that it has a longer than normal beavertail forend? I did not see an image here that shows the full forend, but I assume it has the long reinforced through bolt... Do you have a photo of the top breach area where the barrels and frame come together?... What is the full name "Hall?" on the leather case, and did the case come with the gun?... That name might help lead you to some information and history on the gun...

Best, CSL
_______________________

[Bill Murphy]

Wow. That is a rare and wonderful gun. What is the full name on the case? It will never be known what the original purpose of your gun was, but it is what it is, a trap configured 16 gauge. Not all trap configured guns have two beads. My CHE 32" vent rib, single trigger, beavertail forearm gun only has a front bead. Some shooters seem to prefer only one bead.

[Dean Romig]

Chris, right click on one of his pictures, click "Open Link" at the top of the selections, and you can access all 51 pictures of the gun.

[Frank Allegra]

Here are some other photos to show the breech area and the BTFE bolt. Yes, that case came with the gun and I was told that was the original owner. Now I might need some suggestions as to the amount of restoration that I should do. She has been in the closet for a long time. I'm happy that I was able to get her out.

[Ed Blake]

Awesome gun. Very pretty wood.

[Austin W Hogan]

That is the BTFE that was advertised as having the same taper as the splinter

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Maybe that's what makes it to appear longer than usual.

[Bill Murphy]

When I click on "open link" I get one picture. How do I get 51 pictures?

[Austin W Hogan]

Charlie Price tabulates 31 vent rib 16 ga guns, all with s/n greater than 180000, and only one 32 inch. There is much missing data 180 - 241000, and there may be several more vent rib guns

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

My guess is that the link has been blocked by our forum administrator in order to protect Mr. Allegra's privacy in not allowing us to see his other personal albums.

[Dean Romig]

I wonder what the serial number is on Rich Anderson's Damascus GHE with vent rib and BTFE?

[Carl Brandt]

Some Pics of a "Double Trap" as advertised in the Remington era catalog SN 241509:

This one, along with a Repro Sporting Clays Special are going to Louisville.

[John Dunkle]

These double traps are wonderful!!!

Thanks for sharing them!

John

[Mark Parela]

The double trap I have is choked IM/F 32" I always thaught they were pigeon guns. I see no diference in point of impact compared to my DHE 32" F/F Pshooter.

[Rich Anderson]

Dean my GHE 16 damascuss doesn't have a vent rib, it does have a Parker BTF w/reinforced lug and SST. Perhaps your thinking of the GHE 16 vent rib gun I had at Hausmanns? Unfortunatly that gun resides elsewhere as it was part of the trade for the Holland & Holland. I hated to do it but I rarely shot it and you can only keep so many. I do have a 30 inch VR,BTF,SST 20ga DHE that might be considered a trap gun. That one will never get away:)

[Dean Romig]

Yup, I am probably confusing the two.