Let's discuss the market for 12-gauge guns.

[David Livesay]

I'm sure we've all noticed how prices have fallen for 12 ga. guns. Jus last year I posted a want to buy thread where I asked for a Trojan or VH gun in any gauge, but in all original condition with a budget of $1500. I got a few replies back, but all were either for guns that had issues or higher priced for original guns. I just recently won a very nice all original 1903 VH, 12 ga. in the G&D auction for a $700 bid. There were 2, D grade guns that sold for $900 bids. Both of those guns had been previously restored, but really? Myself I would love to get my hands on a small gauge Parker, but for now I will enjoy getting some very nice original 12 ga. Parkers for half price as compared to a year or two ago. Why do you think people do not seem to want the 12-gauge guns?

[Chris Robenalt]

Good question Dave. I have some all original sxs 12s of different makes that I cant seem to give away at the local gun shows we set up at. I have them priced in the $600 - $1500 range. People touch, caress, admire, and say they'll probably be back. Never see them again. We call them " Bebackers ". Some ask if I have any 20s or 410s. When I do bring them, they dont understand the difference in prices. I notice today's market or best 12 ga sellers are the pumps and semi autos in the 2 - $400 range, and most of the buyers need instruction on how the gun works. I think sxs 12s are sleepers, and alot of bang for the buck! I load them down with 3/4 ounce loads, and they shoot like a .410. I've bought some graded 12s for a steal! Enjoy your 12s!

Chris, AZ

[Garry L Gordon]

The reason some guys are asking more for their 12s is because they paid the premium back when they commanded higher prices. Buy retail, sell wholesale is hard to swallow for some.

Ask me how I know. :rotf:

But…trends are trends, and they will change…if you live long enough.

[Chris Robenalt]

Thats true enough, Garry!
I'd think people would want to shoot 12s with the prices of today's small gauge ammo.

[Craig Larter]

I am a big fan of 12ga #2 frame Parkers. As others have said, the market is the market like it or not. In original condition guns, grade for grade in similar condition, 20ga Parkers are selling for 3.5 to 4X over a 12ga. If your in the 12ga camp times are good. In the 20ga Parker offering the best value, in a graded example, are the GH's in my opinion.

[David Livesay]

I think one of the reasons is that a lot of us are older and don’t like the recoil as much as we used to.

[Dean Romig]

My impression is that the prices for 12 gauge sxs guns have fallen so drastically is that the market is FLOODED with them.





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[Jay Oliver]

I love a 30"-32" #2 frame 12. In most cases(regardless of barrel type) you can shoot most target loads without worry. They swing well and hold their own on a sporting clays course.

I did just get a #1 frame 12 and have been shooting these 7/8oz loads from Fiocchi: https://www.fiocchiusa.com/shotshell/shooting-dynamics/shooting-dynamics-low-recoil/33-1278OZ75.html

They are wonderful and I have been able to hit some far targets with those shells. Easy on the gun and shooter. They're wonderful in a #1 frame and maybe be even better in a #2 frame!

[Bill Murphy]

12 gauge Parkers with condition are still selling just fine. It's hard to compare a brown VH with lots of blue loss and a recoil pad with a pristine VH with some color and a dogs head butt. Give me the item numbers of the Guyette guns that sold for nothing and I'll tell you why they sold for nothing.

[Andrew Sacco]

All things are temporary in my eye. The trend is lighter faster longer and while that appeals, it also reminds me of a friend who says a "Corvette is the best car around for the HP per dollar spent so I don't see the point in spending more." Fine, but if you want to eat at a Chinese buffet for $9 fine, you're not getting good Sushi and you're not getting a Porsche or Audi. I've driven all of them the experience is different and whether the cost of admission is worth it is up to you. I made the mistake of shooting a wonderful 12g game gun that still haunts me but no way $45,000 is in my pocket but I can dream. Likewise you're not getting a 28g VH for $3,000 anymore. This is the playground you CHOSE to play in. If you want a $1,000 12g go get a Mossberg. Although times have changed I can't believe they won't swing back, it's whether or not you can wait that long for the swing to occur. Like I stated in a previous post I'm waiting to sell some 12's but then I have some time on my side and am blessed to be able to afford to hold on to them. I genuinely do feel bad for folks who invested at the peak and may need to sell now. I always seem to do that with stocks not with guns, and therefore I think investing in firearms is always wise : ) At least I tell my wife that.

[David Livesay]

12 gauge Parkers with condition are still selling just fine. It's hard to compare a brown VH with lots of blue loss and a recoil pad with a pristine VH with some color and a dogs head butt. Give me the item numbers of the Guyette guns that sold for nothing and I'll tell you why they sold for nothing.

Okay Bill, please tell me why lot #38,39 and 63 sold so cheap! Please look at #62 as well.

[edgarspencer]

Pick any page in the serialization book, and scroll down the gauge column. The answer is pretty obvious; There are more 12 gauge guns than all the rest combined.

[Craig Larter]

What will kill the market for all Parkers is a lead shot ban. Just look at what's happening in the UK with their lead shot ban and the collapse of the vintage SxS market. It has already underway in our country.
The other issue currently is the shortage and cost of non-tox ammo for waterfowl. Have you tried to buy bismuth lately??

[Mike Koneski]

As shooters and hunters we must fight any lead shot and bullet ban. The non-tox for waterfowl was a lie they forced on waterfowl hunters. Make noise, resist, tell them it’s not going to happen. Don’t be the sheep, be the guard dog.

[Paul Ehlers]

Edgar hit one of the nails on the head about 12ga Parkers.

Other factors come into play as well. Such as this isn't new to the SxS market in any way. In the thirty years or so of chasing my SxS passions 12's other than high condition, higher grade collector quality guns have always been the red-headed stepchild in comparison to the small bores. Small bores sell--12ga's sit on the table.

Then we have the boomer factor! The boomers have been the driving factor for trends in collecting & buying from Beenie babies, to Harley's, hot rod's/muscle cars to Parkers. Let's face it, the sand in running out of our hour glasses and there's a bunch of guns coming to market because of it.

Then we have the contradictions of seeing lower grade type guns selling for what looks like cheap prices, but if you look online on the selling sites like guns international & see the asking prices "Especially by the larger dealers" you would never think that the prices are soft for 12ga Parkers or Model-21's for that matter. This could be a factor for why when you do see a 12ga offered way lower than the rest you can get the idea that it's a bargain, when in fact it's probably the one that realistically priced for the current market.

Then we have the Covid hangover effect where things went pretty nuts for a couple of years with people buying & flipping everything in sight from guns to houses. This created a bubble market of overpaying for an item and then having the air let out of the bubble and a whole bunch of folks being upside down on a bunch of the items they bought and are just now starting to take their loses on the shotgun they bought and didn't need in the first place.

The most glaring contradiction is in the clay's shooting sports. This is where the 12ga is still the king. I wish I could see some stat's on this, but I suspect that we would see there is more 12ga ammo sold in this country by far, over all the other gauges, only it isn't being shot out of SxS's in a game where O/U's & jamamatics rule the day.

Just some other factors to consider.

[Mike Koneski]

I agree with Paul especially on the clays shooting. 12g is still the king. I'd say at our range it would be easily 75%+ of the shooting is done with a 12g. 20g is a steady contributor with some guys devoted to mainly shooting that cartridge followed by 28 then .410 and 16 bringing up the rear. The 16 I attribute to whether the shooters reload or not. That gun gets hunted a lot but unless the guys find reasonably priced 16g ammo or they reload they will only break it out occasionally for clays. We have quite a few guys who regularly shoot 28 & .410.

As for the previous thread regarding lead shot ban in England, remember, they view firearm ownership as a privilege, not a right. You need to ask permission from big bro to own a firearm and to buy ammo and components. The only thing the UK and Europe got right was suppressors. You pretty much are required to use a suppressor most places when shooting rifles. My only beef with that is it's not a choice, it's a mandate. I prefer to use suppressors, I despise when big bro mandates my decisions.

[Ian Civco]

I created a thread tears ago about a 12 gauge being little more than a boat anchor. It’s only gotten worse since then.

[Chris Travinski]

I remember 10 years ago scouring the internet sites every day and not seeing anything of interest for months on end. There are so many great guns available at reasonable prices right now. It's a great time to shop for a high grade 12 gauge. I do feel the real high-end high-grade guns are still bringing a premium.

[Mike Franzen]

Remember, anything a 20 gauge ca do, a 12 gauge can do better.

[John Davis]

The 12 gauge accounts for 99.99% of trap shooters. .01% shoot a Parker.

[Frank Srebro]

Remember, anything a 20 gauge can do, a 12 gauge can do better.

Well said Mike. I shoot sporting quite often with 20 and 28g guns and in the hands of a good shot either will do very well against a 12g. I see that every week with my shooting gang; my friend Lou in particular almost always fields a 28g/32" Browning 725 and he places well against 12g competition guns.

But on an even keel, that's why one well respected club gives 5 and 10 bird (respective) handicaps to 20 and 28g guns at its mixed gauge sporting clays tournaments.

[David Livesay]

50 years ago, as a youngster I traded a 28 ga. for a 16 ga. This was because I couldn't knock the squirrels out of the tallest hickory trees. Luckily both guns were only single shot Stevens. If being used for actual hunting, I believe the 12 ga. is king. Do any duck or goose hunters use small bore guns?

[Daryl Corona]

The 12 may be king but it is boring. 75% of my sporting clay/5 stand shooting is done with either a 20 or 28. The small frames feels lively in my hands and are just fun to shoot. And that's why I shoot. For fun. Even when I do shoot a 12 at targets they are loaded with 3/4oz loads. Kinda puts some fun back into the 12.

[Andrew Sacco]

If you look at long term registered sporting clays or skeet shooters I believe over time the 12g always seems to come out on top- by a small percentage (except for .410) and you can take that with a grain of salt if you're a dude or dudette who just plain likes to shoot for fun or hunt. I have personal opinions of registered sporting clays shooters which will remain personal : )

I have one rule: shoot what you like to shoot and screw everyone else.

[Timothy Cicora]

IMHO. The driving factor is usually a spike in need. Again IMHO the 12ga guns were usually considered entry level guns in the sport.( we are not talking about specials or scarce models ) When SXS shooting became popular sellers capitalized . Every sport has a peak and I think the peak is over.

I'm not seeing the newer shooters going to older guns because they don't want the hassle of finding someone to fix it and they don't work on guns. They just want to shoot. They don't share the cool factor I have for shooting a vintage gun.

I've seen it happen with Cowboy action shooting craze, Chopper craze, Hot rod craze, Vintage sniper match craze. I'm sure you get the point.

[Phil Yearout]

I shoot 12's at trap because most all the trap guns are 12's, plus the ammo is easy to find and relatively cheap (note I said relatively!). I don't shoot sporting. If I'm going afield it's a 16, or on rare occasions a 20. I've never owned a 28 and have never had the hankering for one. I have two sxs 12's mostly just because but they rarely get out. I have a .410 sxs too; same deal.

[Ed Blake]

There’s always a market for nice/high grade guns, but if you want to see where the market is check the auction results. Inventory at the big dealers is to a large degree, consignment items. I laugh at the prices on some of that stuff. No one wants to take a discount and lose money; however, based on the time value of money if you don’t sell for substantially more than you paid, you’ve lost money. People selling small bore Parkers now are realizing nice gains, as evidenced by the realized price for that G-grade 28 G&D recently sold. Guns can be great investments, in hindsight, so just buy what you like and shoot it. If steel shot becomes a thing it’s because conservative voters did not get out and vote.

[John Allen]

When I first started out in the gun business many years ago, people were buying double guns to actually hunt with and most went for 12s. Now most buyers are not serious hunters or shooters but think of themselves as "collectors". I realize that all of the members of PGCA are shooters and hunters. But most of the gun buyers I see at shows are at best occasional shooters. They are after the scarcer small bore guns. It gets down to economics 101. The high supply of 12 gauges means a lower price.

[Craig Larter]

One thing I find interesting is people/families rarely throw away an old gun. Other old sporting equipment gets tossed after a new and improved hits the market, but not guns. So the supply decreases very slow and the supply of new keeps growing. The other factor is availability. Before the internet your market for guns was your local gun shop or local gun show. Today, you can see most of the Parkers for sale in the country by checking a few gun and auction sites. The supply of 12ga guns has overwhelmed demand.
So in today's market a 12ga BHE sells for the same price as a GHE 20ga. Send your 12ga BHE's my way please!!

[Daryl Corona]

One thing I find interesting is people/families rarely throw away an old gun. Other old sporting equipment gets tossed after a new and improved hits the market, but not guns. So the supply decreases very slow and the supply of new keeps growing. The other factor is availability. Before the internet your market for guns was your local gun shop or local gun show. Today, you can see most of the Parkers for sale in the country by checking a few gun and auction sites. The supply of 12ga guns has overwhelmed demand.
So in today's market a 12ga BHE sells for the same price as a GHE 20ga. Send your 12ga BHE's my way please!!

I've got the GHE 20 and it's a damascus. Never had a BHE within striking distance but if I did it would be yours.:)

[Craig Larter]

Daryl the 20ga and 28ga seem more like a ladies gun to me. Give me a #2 frame 12, #3 frame 10ga, or a #6 frame 8ga, men's department guns, LOL!

[Daryl Corona]

You and the boys can keep all the men's dept guns especially the 6 frame 8's. I'll shoot with the ladies anytime. The 20's and 28's are like money in the bank.:):bigbye:

[David Safris]

still pretty impressive that a gun that cost less than $50 100 years ago is relevant and usable and as a bonus - beat inflation in value for 100 years. discussing the average condition 12 gauge costing say - $1500 - $2000 ..has to also include the amazing variety of new guns in that price range. you want a beat up 12 gauge Parker - or a super black eagle, browning citori field, browning A5 , etc. and lightly used you could get a lot more great guns in that price range that were 5-10 years old - beretta SP - nice CG etc . Having broken the stock on a $1500 parker while hunting - and getting price estimate for a new stock that was 2-3X the value of the gun - and over a year wait - etc - takes some of the joy out of it. a lot of the guns that didnt go for big #'s at that auction also said 'restored' even more taking the fun out of preserving an old gun if the future value isnt there. lots of factors. but for me - the great new gun options weigh most heavily when considering a hunting gun. high end collecting guns. totally different topic

[CraigThompson]

You and the boys can keep all the men's dept guns especially the 6 frame 8's. I'll shoot with the ladies anytime. The 20's and 28's are like money in the bank.:):bigbye:

As long as you’re still shooting buddy it works for me !

[allen newell]

That's certainly true at my club here in Plymouth Mass