Why the high price on .410 and 28 gauge Parker shotguns?

[Ian Civco]

Well, obviously, it’s supply and demand. But why such strong demand? At least now?

If they were in such high demand when most were manufactured around the time Remington came into the picture, more would have been manufactured then and more available now.

But now, they are in high demand? Why is that so? Many who fire a .410 side by side claim they hit much less effectively than with larger gauges. Plus, a 12 or a 16 gauge is going to have more shot, a wider pattern.

I want one rather badly (untouched, all original) just to have a light shotgun, it’s the rarity and being unusual that appeals to me. But, so far, even though bidding competitively on some in the past, others have wanted them more.

Why the strong appeal for the 28 gauge and .410? And will this persevere?

[Andrew Sacco]

I'll be the first to chime in. And I'll get flamed. Some of it is a fad. Some of it is the pure joy of carrying a lighter gun that handles like a magic wand. A .410 is a fun gun but they surely don't pattern well and I think if you want a sound Parker in that gauge you might need an oxygen tank when seeing prices, at least I do. 28's are just plain desirable as hell. I love them, but costs are still going to be crazy. I think even if Parker made 40,000 more 28's than they did, the prices would still be strong. There are more people who want them than good existing examples. I'm a 16 lover but the lines between a 12, 16 and 20 are close and for me the 16 is just a nice middle ground at reasonable prices. Look across all the vintage guns and small bores just command more money. I might be called a heretic but this is the time be buying 12g great example Parkers. I hope you find what you're looking for, the hunt is half of it.

[CraigThompson]

Never had a Parker 410 had a Parker 0 frame 28 26” and thought I was going to get a VHE 28 30” about 4 or 5 years ago for 16k but the deal never finalized . I suppose it boils down to what an individual holds in high regard and what they’re willing to pay .

[Daryl Corona]

I absolutely love the 28. I've never felt handicapped using it. They are certainly not for everyone but I'ver never had one person who shot one of my 28's not come back with a big grin on their face and want to buy it from me.

[David Livesay]

When I was just getting into small game hunting back in the mid 70's, I traded my 28ga. for a 16ga. because I couldn't hit as many squirrels that were in the tops of some of the 90+ foot tall hickory trees. I'm glad both guns were just single shot Stevens instead of Parkers. I would love to own a small ga. Parker, but doubt that I will ever spend the kind of $$'s needed to get one. I do own a couple of .410's and a 28 ga.but none are Parkers.

[Chuck Bishop]

Shoot a 28ga. and you'll find out the attraction. They are killing machines.

[William Machauer]

The guys in my club were always giving me the business because I killed twice the birds they did, shooting either my Red Label 28 or my Rizzini 28. So I bought a CZ 410 and still killed more birds. Maybe the tens of thousands of clay birds that I've shot over the years helped? I've shot the Red Label on the bunker and have broken mid teens with it. The 410 I think I broke an 8- not bad for IC/Mod chokes.
I have shot heads off pheasants with my Parker 20ga, quite a few mostly headless pheasant with the 410 but only one with my 28s.
The small boxes are by far my favorites and they do require more time behind the gun to get really proficient.
Don't be scared of the small gauges, embrace them!
Now if I could afford to buy a Parker in 410 & 28 I'd be a really happy camper!

[Bill Murphy]

My first Parker was a 28 gauge. I still own it, have for 66 years now. I have also owned a couple of .410s. They are the cutest little things. My .410 skeet will probably be the last Parker I will ever sell. Ron Kirby called me one night to tell me that a person who lived near my office had a Parker that he needed information on. Ron gave me his phone number and the Parker turned out to be an original finish .410 skeet. I gave the person an honest appraisal, several pages of them. He had gotten appraisals from Abercrombie and Fitch and several other honest dealers. I was close and also honest, so we reached an agreement. I could have walked from my office to this gentleman's home in 45 minutes. It helps to have religion. My first 28 gauge was purchased from a person who lived even closer.

[Mills Morrison]

Supply and demand is the simple answer. I don’t own a Parker 410 but Parker 28s are my favorite Parker configuration next to 0 frame 16s. Fortunately there is more supply of 0 frame 16s

[CraigThompson]

While not a Parker but the first 100 straight I ever shot in NSSA registered skeet was with a 28 gauge . And FWIW my highest average by gauge was always the 28 gauge just a skoosh above my year end 12 and 20 gauge averages .

[edgarspencer]

Everything goes in cycles. 40 years ago it was short barrels, today long barrels are in greater demand than almost any 26" gun. 40 years ago, very few people were actively shooting the 16. Today, they are as hot as they have ever been.
What goes around, comes around again. If you live long enough, you will see small bores demand slip some, then come back. 40 years ago, I inherited two Parker .410s. I don't regret selling them, and my dad rarely shot them. Demand for short barreled 12ga guns may not come round in my remaining years, but they will come back.
Virtually every collectable has a cyclical popularity.

[Dave Noreen]

When the last "Boomer" interested in these things is gone maybe the price will come down for anyone left who happens to still be interested.

[Andrew Sacco]

I guess that's what I mean by "fad." Everything is cyclical. Raise young women who wear bell bottoms and weird crap you haven't seen in years and they say, "Dad, it's boujee..." and you have no flipping idea what boujee means.... What goes around comes around. Don't chase the stock market or barrel length or gauge unless you really need it and can spare the cash then that's awesome for you. If you don't know what boujee means google it like I had to.

[Ian Civco]

Good. I sure can’t wait until the fad ends!

There were no bids on this one this morning, I was going to place a lower bid on it, which couldn’t have been less than $17,500 as that was the opening bid. Maybe $20,000…

Sometimes objects do sell at the opening bid or one or two bids after that.

The bidding war already started.

https://bid.guyetteanddeeter.com/lots/view/5-28P603/extremely-rare-and-all-original-parker-vhe-410-bore-skeet-shotgun

I am a professional with an advanced degree and a good job…but this is still a stretch for me.��

[ED J, MORGAN]

We are getting older, lighter guns are easier to carry, and small gages are the lightest,

[Victor Wasylyna]

Why the high price on .410 and 28 gauge Parker shotguns?

Because they’re worth it.

-Victor

[Stan Hillis]

A .410 is a fun gun but they surely don't pattern well

As someone who has used .410 S X S guns hunting since 1959 I will disagree with the above statement. The .410 patterns just as "well" as any other gauge/bore shotgun. What they do not have, regarding patterns, is as high a pattern density.

I have successfully hunted with .410s for most of my life, but in my later years truly came to understand that they can be made to be highly effective at game bird hunting by the use of heavier payloads and tighter chokes. Pattern density is what kills birds with a .410. Tighter choke is what delivers density.

Sure, the smaller the pattern the better wing shot one has to be to put that pattern on target. But, that has nothing to do with "not patterning well", and everything to do with shooting ability.

Range must be limited with a .410 as well to be successful. Again, that has nothing to do with "not patterning well" , but everything to do with pattern density. When you are dealing with 3/4 oz. or less payloads you just cannot maintain sufficient pattern density at longer ranges.

Armchair experts will be quick to point out that long-for-bore payloads won't pattern well, and that short-for-bore payloads will pattern better. That is a belief that I have totally shot down, to pardon the pun, by developing a .410, 3/4 oz. load of nickel plated 8s that pattern beautifully. The only way you would know it wasn't a bigger bore pattern is by counting the total number of pellet strikes. The evenness of the distribution is fully equal to any 12 bore pattern I've ever seen. And, it kills way better than any other .410 load I have ever used.

Before I developed that handload I used WW 3/4 oz. factory loads very successfully. But, I'm just a tinkerer who's always trying to think of a way to improve something.

[Bill Murphy]

I have had excellent results on clay targets and birds with the .410. Now that I have started to load 3" .410s, I expect to have even more fun, especially on difficult 5 stand and sporting targets. Thanks to Stan for providing me with 3" hulls for me to load.

[Alfred Houde]

The 28 gauge is an absolute joy to shoot and hunt with. I'm happy with my Grulla 216 and Browning Citori. While it would be wonderful to own a Parker Gun in 28 gauge, I cannot justify the cost for one. Just me.

I have owned a few .410 shotguns over the years. I like them, but they are not for me as a bird gun. I know folks use them for grouse and such, but my personal experience was too many wounded birds rather than clean kills. I use them for introducing pups to shotgun fire after a few blank rounds.

[Reggie Bishop]

Good. I sure can’t wait until the fad ends!

There were no bids on this one this morning, I was going to place a lower bid on it, which couldn’t have been less than $17,500 as that was the opening bid. Maybe $20,000…

Sometimes objects do sell at the opening bid or one or two bids after that.

The bidding war already started.

https://bid.guyetteanddeeter.com/lots/view/5-28P603/extremely-rare-and-all-original-parker-vhe-410-bore-skeet-shotgun

I am a professional with an advanced degree and a good job…but this is still a stretch for me.��


You are safe to throw a few bids in the ring. The current bid isn't anywhere near what that gun will sell for.

[Daryl Corona]

While not a Parker but the first 100 straight I ever shot in NSSA registered skeet was with a 28 gauge . And FWIW my highest average by gauge was always the 28 gauge just a skoosh above my year end 12 and 20 gauge averages .

If I'm not mistaken the 28 gauge in NSSA competition consistently showed a higher average compared with the 12,20 or .410.

[Dean Romig]

A 28 gauge Parker DHE was WHF’s favorite Skeet gun… and his favorite grouse gun as well.





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[CraigThompson]

If I'm not mistaken the 28 gauge in NSSA competition consistently showed a higher average compared with the 12,20 or .410.

Bear in mind it was thirty or more years ago but my 410 average was right at 97 but the other three stayed a bit above 98 . By no means all that great but I was happy with . And of the three over 98% the 28 was usually .1-.2% above the 12 and 20 . I think when it was all said and done I had as many if not more hundred straights with the 28 than I did the 20 . As to the 12 gauge most of the 100’s I scored in that gauge were shot with a 20 only 12 100 straights I shot with a 12 were done with an 1100 or 11/87 .

[Andrew Sacco]

If you look at NSSA averages for a AAA shooter the 12-20-28 are all .25% apart, the .410 is 2% lower (this is for classification not the scores). I take that to mean that over a long time with shooters of similar ability the .410 is 2% less effective but still shooting 96.5%. For the average bird hunter/recreational shooter I'm not sure that translates at all.

[Mike Koneski]

I'd love to have a VH Parker in both .410 and 28. BUT, no way I'm dumping that kind of scratch into a shotgun. If I have that kind of disposable cash it'll buy something that with one pull of the trigger can do a mag dump. To each his own.

[Dave Noreen]

One of the reasons for slow sales of the .410-bore Parker during the early years was the available ammunition. From the introduction of the .410-bore shell in North America circa 1914 it was offered in two loadings, 3/10-ounce in a 2-inch shell and 3/8-ounce in a 2 1/2-inch shell. Things picked up for the .410-bore in 1933, at the depth of The Great Depression, with the introduction of the 3-inch shell doubling the max load to 3/4-ounce, along with the Winchester Model 42. A few years later the 2 1/2-inch shell got upped to the 1/2-ounce load we all know.

Similarly, the 28-guage loads were 5/8-ounce for many years. Finally, in 1931 the ammo companies got around to introducing a progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity load to the 28-gauge with 3/4-ounce of shot. Chas. Askins mentions in his 1910 book of loading 2 1/8 drams of bulk smokeless and 3/4-ounce of shot in the 2 7/8-inch 28-gauge shell for his heavy 30-inch barrel Parker Bros. but the ammo companies didn't offer anything heavier than 2 drams pushing 5/8-ounce.

[Daryl Corona]

Turns out what goes around comes around. The old 5/8oz load is a dandy if you handload.

[Victor Wasylyna]

After today's G&D auction, I think it is safe to say that prices for Parker 28s and 410s are still strong. The 410s blew past high estimates.

-Victor

[Bob Jurewicz]

Here is a reasonable one we all could have bought.
Bob Jurewicz
https://bid.guyetteanddeeter.com/lots/view/5-28P603/extremely-rare-and-all-original-parker-vhe-410-bore-skeet-shotgun

[John Davis]

Bear in mind it was thirty or more years ago but my 410 average was right at 97 but the other three stayed a bit above 98 . By no means all that great but I was happy with . And of the three over 98% the 28 was usually .1-.2% above the 12 and 20 . I think when it was all said and done I had as many if not more hundred straights with the 28 than I did the 20 . As to the 12 gauge most of the 100’s I scored in that gauge were shot with a 20 only 12 100 straights I shot with a 12 were done with an 1100 or 11/87 .

Well, there’s your problem. You weren’t shooting a 12 gauge Parker. :)

[John Allen]

To answer the original question of why small bore guns were not as popular in the old days, any gauge under 16 was considered suitable only for ladies or kids. Serious hunters and shooters used 12s and 16s. I have owned a few small gauge guns that according to family history were bought as first guns for children. That was just the mind set at the time. That is why Parker,LC Smith,and Ithaca made so few small gauge guns. Remember that AH Fox did not make anything smaller than 20 gauge.

[Stan Hillis]

Maybe that's still the case, John, that .410s are for kids. That makes me a 74 year old kid. I'm okay with that thought.

[Ian Civco]

Here is a reasonable one we all could have bought.
Bob Jurewicz
https://bid.guyetteanddeeter.com/lots/view/5-28P603/extremely-rare-and-all-original-parker-vhe-410-bore-skeet-shotgun

This shotgun was my inspiration for this thread. I wanted to bid on this one but got blown out of the water. It’s safe to say that the winning bid of $110,000 which, when you add in buyers premium, was about 6 figures higher than I could afford. I would have bid $25k, maybe a little more to outbid someone on it.

I don’t see how this is a $132,000 shotgun?

[Andrew Sacco]

To someone it was worth that. To me no way. To each their own. I think at that price it’s whether you’re a shooter or collector. That’s how I boil it down some people pee that kind of money away. I don’t judge or begrudge in the end it’s good for the brand. My guns see rain snow branches and mud so I can’t justify it but I’m happy the buyer got what they wanted!

[Reggie Bishop]

It's all about condition and rarity. Not many .410s were produced, very very few .410s in the skeet configuration. And then to find one in this condition. All these add to investor quality Parker. An individual investing in that niche with the net worth to fund the investments can pay the price. It's the same with those that collect muscle cars, art, decoys, or any other collecting circle. I applaud those who can and do invest in whatever commodity that they choose. The very same risks are involved say investing in the stock market.

[CraigThompson]

Well, there’s your problem. You weren’t shooting a 12 gauge Parker. :)

John you can bet if I’d have owned the J Cliff Green two gun four barrel set then I’d have shot it , but I seriously doubt I’d have done as well as I did with the Kolar tubed K-32 . It’s worth noting that K-32 had a K-80 Monte Carlo stock and I shot it with two other barrels at trap as well . It’s as close as I’ve ever come to the one gun concept . 28” skeet barrels with Kolar insert tubes , 32” barrels for trap doubles and a 34” unsingle barrel for 16 yards and handicap .

[Bill Murphy]

When I bought my .410 skeet, the owner told me that the gun had never seen a skeet field or a clay target, but it had killed a bucket load of quail. It was owned by Warren Woolf of Atoka, Virginia. It is pictured on the cover of the August 2004 Skeet Shooting Review. Yes, I do post pictures. My 20 skeet was owned by Virginia skeet shooter Bob Hess, the fellow who outed the famous 24 gauge Parker. My 12 and 28 skeets also came out of Virginia. I don't know how Craig Thompson let them slip by. Craig has probably shot on the same skeet fields as Bob Hess.

[allen newell]

I grew up shooting my grandfather's/dad's 16 ga vh but have owned and shot all the parker gages. I like the 16 ga the most. It's a historical new england favorite on grouse and woodcock.

[Stephen Hodges]

This shotgun was my inspiration for this thread. I wanted to bid on this one but got blown out of the water. It’s safe to say that the winning bid of $110,000 which, when you add in buyers premium, was about 6 figures higher than I could afford. I would have bid $25k, maybe a little more to outbid someone on it.

I don’t see how this is a $132,000 shotgun?

The sold for price does reflect the Buyers Premium.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, the $132,000 figure includes the buyer's premium. The bid was $110,000.

[Ian Civco]

The sold for price does reflect the Buyers Premium.

Yes, I’m well aware that the $132,000 is $110,000 plus buyer’s premium of 20%, making it $132,000. I just don’t see how this shotgun is actually worth $132,000. It seems like a lot for very little.

Two folks willing to pay $100k for it, and one willing to go to $110k. Seems like a battle of egos.

[John Davis]

The gun is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

[Alfred Houde]

I would say that is true about any firearm.

One of the larger shops here in Virginia had a very nice Grade 1 Browning B-S/S in 12 gauge on their Gun Broker feed. No box, just clean with what looked like little use. It was the standard pistol grip with 26" barrels.

I watched it out of curiosity, and it sold for 3K.

Somebody wanted it, for sure.