Early 20th Century Powder Question?

[Mike Koneski]

Looking at deciphering some mid-1920s pattern data and the powder used is marked as DS. I can't find whether it means Dupont Smokeless or Dense Smokeless (which could be Ballistite or Infallible). Anyone have any data on those early smokeless powders and exactly what DS would be? It was used in the Parker factory for pattern tests.

[Jeff Kuss]

Mike,
Are you sure it isn't BS. Most of my hang tags are marked Bulk Smokeless.
Jeff

[Mike Koneski]

Jeff, it’s definitely DS. Even Chuck agrees. It’s not like one entry that could be read differently. There are many entries. One entry on the page did specify EC powder.

[Phillip Carr]

This may or may not be helpful, but AI states this.

In the early 20th century, the designation DS (also seen as D.S.) referred to DuPont Smokeless shotgun powder.
This propellant was part of the transition from black powder to modern smokeless powders. Key details regarding its history and use include:
Manufacturer: It was produced by the DuPont company in the United States.
Powder Type: It was a "bulk" smokeless powder, designed so that it could be measured by the same volume as the black powder it replaced.
Performance: DS powder was known for being a relatively "fast" burning propellant, making it suitable for standard shotgun loads and clay target shooting.
Market Context: During this era, shooters often chose between "bulk" powders (like DuPont Smokeless or Schultze) and "dense" powders (like Ballistite or Infallible), which required smaller, more precise charges.

[Mike Koneski]

That makes sense and the direction I was leaning. Thanks Phil.

[John Dallas]

I have an OLD DuPont powder can at my cabin. Will check out the nomenclature when I get back there in about2 weeks

[Mike Koneski]

I'm surprised Researcher hasn't added some input. :corn:

[Mike Koneski]

What I’ve found, which correlates to Phil’s post-


Parker Brothers used a variety of gunpowders for factory pattern testing, transitioning from black powder to early "bulk" smokeless powders around the turn of the 20th century. Key propellants identified in their testing and factory tags include DuPont Smokeless (often listed as DS or D.S.), "E.C.", and Schultze.

[Jeff Kuss]

I have hang tags with Bulk Smokeless, DuPont and Schutze Powders mentioned.

[Dave Noreen]

DS is the abbreviation for Dead Shot smokeless powder. From the 1910 Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalog and price list --

139484

A Dead Shot ad from The American Field, January 12, 1907 --

139485

[Dave Noreen]

Same abbreviation info in a Winchester catalog, D for Du Pont Smokeless, DS for Dead Shot --

139489

[Mike Koneski]

That just may be correct. However, we can’t be too sure regarding the factory records because there is no key to decipher some abbreviations. All we can do is interpret the various entries as best as we can. Dead Shot does fall within the year the gun was made and the patterns tested. I will have to peruse TPS this afternoon and see if there is any pattern test info within those hallowed pages.

[Dave Noreen]

Those abbreviations, D for DuPont and DS for Dead Shot seem to be an industry standard. I found the same in Peters and Western ammo catalogs as well as the Union Metallic Cartridge Co. and Winchester pages I had scanned into my computer.

[Mike Koneski]

Very good. Thank you Dave.

[Drew Hause]

It's not a surprise that most of the verbiage regarding burst barrels with Smokeless powder was related to confusion regarding grains & dram equivalents; esp. after the introduction of Dense Smokeless

July 1899 "Outdoor Life Ideal Shotgun Powder Table"

Black Powder (90 grains = 3 Dram)
“E.C.” No. 1 & “Schultze” - 41 grains
“E.C.” No. 2 - 35 grains
Velox - 105 1/2 grains
DuPont Bulk - 37 1/2 grains
Hazard Blue Ribbon Bulk - 37 1/2 grains
Gold Dust - 88 1/2 grains
Oriental - 37 grains
Troisdorf - 42 1/2 grains
King’s Semi-smokeless - 74 1/2 grains
King’s Smokeless - 54 grains


c. 1900 Powder Equivalents

...............................BULK............... ..................DENSE
.....….“E.C.” No.1....DuPont…..“Schultze”......Walsrode Green..Ballistite...Infallible
3 Dram....42............40................42........ ........30………..…...24...........22 grains
3 1/4.…...45.5..........43................45.......... ......32……..….…..26...........24 grains
3 1/2…....49.............46.5.............48.......... ......34………..…...28...........26 grains

The original “Schultze” & “E.C.” No. 1 Bulk Smokeless were 14 grains/dram
The original DuPont Bulk was 13 1/3 grains/dram
The original Laflin & Rand and Hazard “Blue Ribbon” Bulk were 12 1/3 grains/dram
Advertisements appeared in the later part of 1906 for “New DuPont Smokeless” which was also 12 1/3 grains/dram
“New Schultze”, New “E.C.(Improved) No. 2” Bulk Smokeless were 12 grains/dram.
“E.C. No. 3” was 11 grains/dram or 33 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.

Dense “Ballistite” and “Infallible” were later listed as equivalent at 8 grains/dram.

[Drew Hause]

American Powder Mills “Dead Shot” Bulk Smokeless was introduced in 1904, and “Dead Shot” ads first appeared in Sporting Life in 1906

Comparative Loads from the Lefever Arms Co. in The Outdoorsman's Handbook, 1920
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lr1DAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA138&lpg
Bulk DuPont, "Schultze", "E.C.", and Dead Shot are listed as equivalent so I assume that Dead Shot was another 42 grain = 3 Dram

[Mike Koneski]

I looked in TPS volume I, I found info on choke boring. The writers say that in the early days of Parker Bros in the black powder days, Parker Bros would hand load the test shells. Moving forward, when the various smokeless powders were introduced, Parker Bros would use factory shells as they were readily available. That said, it is a possibility that DS does indeed stand for Dead Shot. We can certainly say that “DS stands for Dead Shot, DuPont Smokeless or Dense Smokeless.” Too bad we can’t ask a factory employee.

[Drew Hause]

I believe Dave is quite correct regarding 'DS'
A good collection of hang tags have been shown here, and some indicate DuPont Bulk, some only 'Bulk', and on some the powder is not indicated

c. 1924

https://photos.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-V4w3kw8/0/KVrRZ3gb4VTpQtVr7cqbnxQcnNG6FbMTR3FWdxqgm/M/16ParkerHangTag-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-V4w3kw8/A)

c. 1928 with DuPont Oval

https://photos.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-9dgKRS6/0/KH2hM8MzL9GRH3mk5pV34hzKvWZZ77MTBPGTD7SpV/L/Parker%201928%20BH%20DuPont%20Oval-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-9dgKRS6/A)

BTW Dense Smokeless had significantly higher pressures than Bulk; period pressures to which 10% was added for modern transducer numbers
1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams BULK Smokeless was 6000 - 8000 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 8,500 - 10,000 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. BULK Smokeless was about 8500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 9500 - 10,500 psi.
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. BULK Smokeless was about 11,500 psi
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 12,500 psi

[Dave Noreen]

Just got my new laptop connected to my scanner, so I scanned the page with the powder abbreviations in the 1912 U.S. Cartridge Co. catalog --

139530

[Mike Koneski]

Dave, you need to put all your knowledge into book form! :cool:

[Ed Blake]

Are there any modern equivalents to Dense Smokeless?

[Mike Koneski]

From what I know, dense smokeless was made to be measured like black powder. That said, maybe a black powder substitute such as Pioneer powder? I wouldn’t bother with it.

I was thinking bulk smokeless, not dense smokeless. Drew is 100% correct. That would not end well.

[Drew Hause]

OH NO MIKE!!!!
Bulk Smokeless was measured by volume and early on the volume was the same a black powder. That changed with 33 grain = 3 Dram Eq. Bulk powders
Dense was ONLY to be measured by grains/weight.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-j4HB5KG/0/NJPxrFVC5kfdG8vFtZLfXtNTvNJWWFXR4TpG5Dwq6/XL/LAC%20recommended%20ammo%20c.%201914-XL.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-j4HB5KG/A)

A 3 Dr. Eq. (Dram Equivalent) load of “E.C.” No. 1 or “Schultze” was 42 grains by weight. 3 Dr. Eq. of Dense Smokeless Ballistite was 24 grains; Infallible 22 grains. The pressure of a 3 Dram (82 grains by volume) load of Black Powder with 1 1/8 oz. of shot at 1200 fps is about 5000 psi. The pressure of 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi; 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.

Substituting a Dense Smokeless powder for Black or Bulk Smokeless powder would double the charge. It has been estimated that 50 grains of Infallible or Unique could reach 30,000 psi.

[Drew Hause]

Ed: interestingly Laflin & Rand's Unique and Infallible were made from the same formula, the only difference being the granulation. Both were reformulated over the years.
Hercules promoted Red Dot as a replacement for Infallible, but continued to manufacture Infallible (later by Alliant).

Nobel's Ballistite for shotshells was discontinued (in the U.S.) in the late 1920s.

[Mike Koneski]

OH NO MIKE!!!!
Bulk Smokeless was measured by volume and early on the volume was the same a black powder. That changed with 33 grain = 3 Dram Eq. Bulk powders
Dense was ONLY to be measured by grains/weight.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-j4HB5KG/0/NJPxrFVC5kfdG8vFtZLfXtNTvNJWWFXR4TpG5Dwq6/XL/LAC%20recommended%20ammo%20c.%201914-XL.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-j4HB5KG/A)

A 3 Dr. Eq. (Dram Equivalent) load of “E.C.” No. 1 or “Schultze” was 42 grains by weight. 3 Dr. Eq. of Dense Smokeless Ballistite was 24 grains; Infallible 22 grains. The pressure of a 3 Dram (82 grains by volume) load of Black Powder with 1 1/8 oz. of shot at 1200 fps is about 5000 psi. The pressure of 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi; 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.

Substituting a Dense Smokeless powder for Black or Bulk Smokeless powder would double the charge. It has been estimated that 50 grains of Infallible or Unique could reach 30,000 psi.

I was thinking dense was bulk. My bad. I still wouldn’t bother with it.

[Mike Koneski]

Funny thing is I’m in the midst of reading Askins book on “Modern Shotguns and Loads” and he has chapters devoted to powders and loads and patterns and……

[Stan Hoover]

Funny thing is I’m in the midst of reading Askins book on “Modern Shotguns and Loads” and he has chapters devoted to powders and loads and patterns and……

If Charles mentions his 16 gauge Ithaca :whistle:

[John Dallas]

Here's the old powder. Sorry about the rotation
Tried to resize it, but...

[Mike Koneski]

Here ya go.

FFg black powder?

[Dave Noreen]

1Fg would be black powder.

Black powder is classified by granulation size, with 1F being the coarsest and 4F the finest, used for different firearms and applications.

Some DuPont Bulk items --

139752

139753

139754

[Mike Koneski]

A few more powders in the Parker records. They are Schultze and Hazard Blue Ribbon. All kinds of new info is turning up.

[Dave Noreen]

Capt. A.W. Money (Bluerock) and his family came to the U.S. and set up the American "E.C." and Schultze Gunpowder Company, Ltd. with works in Oakland, Bergen County, New Jersey, and offices at 318 Broadway in New York City.

Advertising for The American “E.C.” and Schultze Gunpowder Company, Ltd. was regularly found in The American Field through the February 13, 1904, issue. Beginning in the April 2, 1904, issue of The American Field, “New E.C.” and “Schultze” celebrated Bulk Powders were being advertised as products of Laflin & Rand Powder Co. Through the end of 1906 L & R advertised “New E.C. (Improved)” and “New Schultze” bulk powders in addition to their “Infallible Smokeless” dense powder. Beginning in mid-February 1907, “New E.C. (Improved)” and “New Schultze” bulk powders, and “Infallible Smokeless” dense powder were being advertised as products of E.I. du Pont de Nemours Powder Company, Wilmington, Del.

[Drew Hause]

In 1904 the great Fred Gilbert, on station 5, was shooting a Parker and DuPont Bulk

https://photos.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-HSnb9cV/0/LRr3tcTVf5vmnHcSCWP6sQNSkpJqmrVCmHbKZDmTW/L/S%26P%2028%201904LaflinRand2-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-HSnb9cV/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-gj6trBs/0/KpX3fW8cmw2WpK9kWNNTspxtg64zs9LgV5ZQQw9Px/L/S%26P%205%20Winchester%20Loads-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Shotshells-and-pressures/Shotshells/i-gj6trBs/A)