2-1/2" pitch?

[Jay Gardner]

A friend of mine has a neat old VHE. It's a #1 frame, 20 ga, straight grip with 32" barrels choked Full and Full. According to the letter the order specified to shoot 2-3/4" shells and 2-1/2" pitch. Anyone have an idea what "pitch" the order referrs to? Note the specs of the gun are/were LOP:14-1/2; DAC: 1-5/8; and, DAH 2-1/4".

Thanks, JDG

[Linn Matthews]

Pitch is commonly referred to as the angle of the buttstock when it is against your shoulder.
As I understand it -- if you ran a line along the barrel to the rear of the gun and, at the same time ran a line from the face of the buttstock up to the line from the barrel you would define the pitch. If the lines were perpendicular at the intersection, the pitch would be zero, if the lines were not perpendicular at the intersection the difference in the angle at intersection would be the pitch.
It is important because if angle is improper the muzzle of the gun can be pointed up or down while you are thinking how good the stock fits you.

[Dean Romig]

True - pitch is determined by the angle of the butt in relation to the angle of the top of the barrels but pitch is measured on the 90 degree. To determine pitch stand the gun on its butt flat on the floor and slide it toward the wall until the top of the breech is against the wall then measure the distance from the wall to the muzzles.

[Bill Murphy]

Dean's method (against the wall in inches) is the American method and the most convenient. The English method is to measure the angle in degrees, a totally inconvenient method devised to excuse the stockmaker from blame if things don't come out right. The wall method changes a bit as the barrel length changes, but it is still a more convenient method.

[Theodore LeDurt]

Do you measure to the barrels from the wall at the muzzle, or do you measure from the wall to the center of the muzzle?

[Dean Romig]

From the wall to the top surface of the top rib at the base of the front bead. That's the way I do it and that's about as accurate a measurement as you'll get.

[Bill Murphy]

The edge of the barrels at the muzzle.

[Dean Romig]

Either Bill's or my method will give you approximately the same reading unless the gun has a ventilated or elevated rib.

[Jay Gardner]

This is why I spend time reading threads on this forum. Thank you all. As a follow-up, what practical effect would this have on the point of impact and what type of shot would this benefit? Thanks in advance.

[John Dallas]

A pitch discussion will benefit the person who misses, and is looking for an excuse. Personally, I think the measurement is overrated, but I'm sure there will be others who will chime in and tell us it THE critical measurement.

[Dave Suponski]

This is a great discussion. But while we are kinda on the subject of stock dimensions and fit. I think the drop at heal is much less important than drop at comb. So let's have at this for a while. I seem to shoot guns with more drop at heal just fine as long as the drop at comb is around 1 1/2".

[Robert Rambler]

FWIW, And only because Larry shows a Parker! :rotf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLHTQtMQw84

http://www.stockfitting.com/excerpts.html

[Dean Romig]

This is why I spend time reading threads on this forum. Thank you all. As a follow-up, what practical effect would this have on the point of impact and what type of shot would this benefit? Thanks in advance.

The effect on point of impact is directly related to the angle of the butt against the shooter's shoulder. With a gun that has less pitch you will find that the toe of the butt meets resistance against the shoulder first causing the barrels to rotate upward while a gun with more pitch finds the heel of the butt meeting first resistance against the shoulder causing less upward rotation or none at all.

Larry has it right but only half right. His theory works only if all three guns have the same pitch.

[Jack Cronkhite]

A pitch discussion will benefit the person who misses, and is looking for an excuse. Personally, I think the measurement is overrated, but I'm sure there will be others who will chime in and tell us it THE critical measurement.

Let me chime in with some CRITICAL factors using the wall method. Ensure wall is PLUMB and exactly 90 degrees (square) with the floor. Don't assume that is the case, unless of course you built the wall. :) And don't forget to compensate for the thickness of a baseboard, if present.

I have shot a lot of birds over life with many different shotguns without knowing any of the measurements. Do I dare admit I also have never patterned one and I've used any available ammo. (not with the old sxs, I've learned that much here - thanks) I think it boils down to how you hold your tongue :rolleyes: But, I am now armed with another excuse when needed. :whistle:

Cheers,
Jack

[Daryl Corona]

I agree with Dave as I would rather have more drop at heel for shooting birds and clays and it really does'nt bother me as I can adapt. Dean was also right in that the main purpose of pitch is to keep the gun in the pocket of your shoulder and prevent the gun from flipping up upon firing. If the pitch was zero the toe of the stock would dig into your chest with each shot. For me the perfect stock has either no drop [a straight comb] or a monte carlo type with more drop at comb than heel. This tends to pull the stock away from your face upon firing and allows me to really stay with the gun. But that is what I like and if you ask 10 shooters you will probably get at least 9 different opinions.

[Ed Blake]

I was talking with a guy tonight who is restocking a GH for me and he recommends 3 degrees of negative pitch when using a pad. He says the negative pitch gets the shooter down on the stock better. I've never given pitch much thought, but I have a DHE on which the Silvers pad was ground down more at the toe and I do very well with it.

[Dave Suponski]

At least for me..A gun that does not have at least a few degrees of pitch is very uncomfortable to shoot. It's no fun using a gun that tries to dig itself into your shoulder with every shot..

[Jack Cronkhite]

Okay, so now I'm getting in to measuring the various parameters, just to be able to say I have done so. One day, I'll even pattern a few. Now a question on DAC DAH and measuring something like an 870 where the action is a bit higher than the barrel. Do I just use the back of the action or do I try to use a straight edge from the bead to the wherever it will rest on the action? Thanks,
Jack

[Larry Frey]

Jack,
The best thing about those plastic stocks is that you can easily adjust them with a propane torch and they very rarely ever crack.;)

To answer your question, if I were to measure dac or dah on a gun with the barrel below the receiver I would lay the gun on it's side and put two spacer blocks of known thickness on either end of the barrel. Then lay your straight edge along the blocks and take your measurements. Then simply subtract the thickness of the spacers and you have your actual measurements. Hope that makes some sense.

[Chris Travinski]

So the pitch has been my problem all along! I was beginning to think I was a bad shot, but after reading this it's definately the pitch, nothing to do with me, pitch.

Kidding aside, great info, usefull or not these things are good to know.
Chris.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Jack,
The best thing about those plastic stocks is that you can easily adjust them with a propane torch and they very rarely ever crack.;)

To answer your question, if I were to measure dac or dah on a gun with the barrel below the receiver I would lay the gun on it's side and put two spacer blocks of known thickness on either end of the barrel. Then lay your straight edge along the blocks and take your measurements. Then simply subtract the thickness of the spacers and you have your actual measurements. Hope that makes some sense.

Thanks Larry: Makes perfect sense, just fire up the torch :rolleyes:
Lest anyone believe that is my 870, I got lazy and grabbed a google image for illustrative purposes.

Now the opposite issue and then I am armed to tackle the job, if I can remember the combination for the safe. A high vent rib above the receiver. My first assumption is the extended top of the rib is the line from which to take the measurements.
Another google image, much prettier than the old family 870

[Jack Cronkhite]

So, in reading this thread and thinking of measuring my shotguns to see what the differences are that I manage to adapt myself to when shooting them, just thinking about doing it became a chore. So I asked google to help and look what showed up HERE (http://www.shotguncombogauge.com/combogauge.html)
Cheers,
Jack

[David Holes]

makes my old yardstick and ruler look state of art.

[charlie cleveland]

now i know why my old gun only has a partial burnt stock on it..ha good luck with the torch... charlie

[Francis Morin]

The door jamb 90% angle trick ONLY is valid if your framing square (invented by a Massachusetts blacksmith in 1824- from Framing-ham no doubt) tells use the door jamb is dead nutz plumb. I've done baggo volunteer carpentry work for H4H on renovation of older houses- wood moves with weather and over time, so if your framing square tells you the jamb and the floor or sill plate are at a true 90%, then you have an accurate way to aproximate the pitch- and the longer the barrels with the same stock, the lesser the pitch-

ie: My older 2E Smith- original 30" barrels will show DAC of 1& 5/8" and DAH of 2 & 1/4"- it was a live bird gun-still is today-, but owner sent it back to Fulton in 1927 and had a set of factory Nitro 32' BARRELS WITH FACTORY VENTILATED RIB fitted- 3" chambers, reinforcing yoke and Full & Fuller chokes- so, if I measure from the wall to the top of the ventilated rib, I get a slightly different reading a than if I measure to the top of the muzzle(s) a la Murphy's Law of Pitch measuring--

I am very accurate with my measurements and also construction nomenclature- ie" In the Stephen King- Peter Strauss novel "Black House" our "State of Mainer" author mis-used the stair layout terms- he got it bass-ackwards- treads are what you put your feet on to ascend or descend, the risers are the back than enclosed the stair carriage on finished work-and the nose is the rounded overhang of the tread as it is installed on the carriage-- but, other than that, it was still a good read, if you like WI bikers and craft beers--:bigbye::):bowdown::crying::eek::bigbye::cool::p

[Jack Cronkhite]

makes my old yardstick and ruler look state of art.

I still suffer "yardstickophobia", since school days. That makes me a bit younger than those who remember the "hickory stick".

Cheers,
Jack

[Francis Morin]

I still suffer "yardstickophobia", since school days. That makes me a bit younger than those who remember the "hickory stick".

Cheers,
Jack Them nasty Penguins loved to smash our knuckles with rulers- Nuns- probably grew up believing all boys were bad to the bone- which, in retrospect, might have been true--:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Marc Retallack]

Francis

A framing square will only indicate the portion of the jamb that it is in contact with is plumb IF the floor is truly level. You need an appropriately sized (6'6" being the standard) level to determine if a jamb is plumb. Even then, most jambs aren't perfectly true with regards to being a perfectly straight even surface.

Cheers
Marcus

[Jack Cronkhite]

So....... if all is level, plumb, square and the pitch is correctly measured, cast dac, dah, lop and even drop at cheek is the perfect fit for you and you still miss the bird, is it then the fault of the ammunition????? Is there ever a point where the fault actually lies with the shooter??? I need all the excuses out there.
Cheers,
Jack

[Francis Morin]

Francis

A framing square will only indicate the portion of the jamb that it is in contact with is plumb IF the floor is truly level. You need an appropriately sized (6'6" being the standard) level to determine if a jamb is plumb. Even then, most jambs aren't perfectly true with regards to being a perfectly straight even surface.

Cheers
Marcus--for truing up jambs- lotsa times the 'rough-in' and then the installation of the windows and doors (prior to the J channel and then siding crew arrive)- the jack and king studs can dry out and warp- that's why we have shims- and the old rules are right- ie: "A level never lies", and "Always use the longest level you can"-- work-- but I wanted to get the framing square and Framingham, Mass bit worked in--first think we do with the 'rookie cookies" on the H4H Vol crews- we check their tape rules, levels and squares against ours-- a framing square with a 1" wide 16" long tongue and a 2" wide 24" long blade is a true 90% at one point, you are correct about that--and common and king rafters run off the 12" mark, jack and hip rafters off the 17" mark- thanks to some Greek dude name o Pythagorean, so I hear--:bigbye::bigbye::bigbye::bigbye::bigbye:

[Francis Morin]

So....... if all is level, plumb, square and the pitch is correctly measured, cast dac, dah, lop and even drop at cheek is the perfect fit for you and you still miss the bird, is it then the fault of the ammunition????? Is there ever a point where the fault actually lies with the shooter??? I need all the excuses out there.
Cheers,
Jack-- a loose nut behind the buttstock-:rolleyes::rolleyes::bigbye: