A hunting hammergun?

[Lloyd McKissick]

For the past 2 or 3-years now I have gone on an expedition to understand how a hammergun might fit my ongoing needs as a bird hunter. When I started, the 1st thing I discovered was the depth and breadth of examples that have survived into this "modern" age. The 2nd thing I learned about the period of my interest (early 1870s thru the late 1890s) was this...things were better-made then.

to be continued...(Christmas preparations 1st today)

Allright, where were we, hunting hammerguns, right. I had some initial biases that I thought might be important, after using these guns with some frequency (for a few years now) a few thing have come into clarity for me. Fit is still very critical, as is weight and even chokes. Quality is also paramount! Lesser guns will work for time and then...problems inevitably arise. In American hammerguns, the Parkers are probably as good as it got (in guns with useable dimensions). Another thing that has become very clear to me is that good Damascus is pretty hard to beat, period. Any fears I might have had even a few years ago are now completely dispelled. I now only look for Damascus guns from that period as the later fluid steel guns simply weren't finished nearly as well. The wood and engraving are almost always inferior, and by a wide margin.

One initial bias was for back-action guns, & while that has become less of a bias, it still has its rewards. Backaction guns have narrower and more-rounded actions which make them slimmer and lighter while still being quite strong, in the English stock versions they seem to mount with surprising alacrity(!) for me. Another bias was to avoid underlever (Jones-type) guns as being too-slow. I now know better about them (although a side lever still looks very attractive to me). In short, I need a good fit, at a good weight (under 7-lbs if possible), for a gun with longer tubes (28-inch is the bare-minimum) and decent chokes (I've shot both no-chokes and full-chokes, perfection is somewhere in the middle of all that). I now clearly prefer non-rebounding locks (for their ease of cocking from half to full) and I actually like wedge forends now (for their simplicity and ease of use).

In my informal survey of the American guns, the Parkers seem to be at the top of the heap (I have enjoyed my fishtail 1-frame gun very much), but...the British guns seem to better fit my ongoing needs. I will likely send a few of my initial purchases down the road of commerce and start to look for appropriate replacements (very soon). Subgauge guns are not out of the question, but they are fairly rare (and accordingly expensive) when compared to the veritable sea of 12-bores floating around.

Ahh, I so love a good chase.

[Dean Romig]

Lloyd, I love to hunt with my Parker hammer guns, especially my 16’s and best of all for me are my Lifters.





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[Lloyd McKissick]

Well...Dean might have the penultimate option for an American hammer gun. What does your 16 weigh-in at good sir? And...how much drop?

[CraigThompson]

I had a pair of 16 gauge 30” top levers one was a Grade 0 on a 1 frame and the other was a Grade 2 on if memory serves an 0 frame . The 0 frame had more drop than I wanted but the other I shot well sad to say I never carried it hunting . Had four top lever 12’s a 28” a pair of 30” and a 32” I never got overly enthralled in them . Now I do have a 2 frame 0 grade two barrel 10 gauge 26” and 30” of which I used the 26” barrels on a quail deal one day shooting ounce handloads and I liked it . I’ve also used a 3 frame grade 2 top lever restock 10 gauge 32” on tower shoots several times and I like it quite a lot . I might add I e used a 7 frame 0 grade top lever 36” 8 gauge for maybe a two dozen shots at a couple tower shoots and it did nicely . Picture below was at the first peg I ever used the 8 gauge , that was the only peg I shot it that day I also had another gun so I put the 8 in someone’s car and continued on with a different gun .

[Dean Romig]

Well...Dean might have the penultimate option for an American hammer gun. What does your 16 weigh-in at good sir? And...how much drop?

Just about 7 lbs and 2 oz. but I don't remember the drop... about 3" I think.

I had a 16 ga Lifter in Grade 1 with Damascus barrels that I sold that was even lighter. The barrels had been cut back to 24" from their original 28"

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[Rich Anderson]

I have a grade 3 16 with 30 inch barrels that I have taken to Georgia quail hunting.
The English guns are just pure joy both in handling and shooting. I'm blessed with two 20's a Cogswell & Harrison Best Quality and a Boss. 12's are a Stephan Grant and a matched pair of Purdey's.
Be careful this is a steep and slippery slope.......and I love it:rotf:

[Lloyd McKissick]

I'm finding that all "fine gun" stuff is a slippery slope, but I'm so-far down that slope now it doesn't really matter.

[Dean Romig]

…just you wait. You ain’t seen nuttin yet. :whistle:





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[edgarspencer]

I had a 16 ga Lifter in Grade 1 with Damascus barrels that I sold that was even lighter. The barrels had been cut back to 24" from their original 28".

Unless it's a different 16ga lifter than the one I remember, it was a grade 0, and they were twist. The mind is a terrible thing to loose.

[Dean Romig]

I know you’re right Edgar… there have just been so many…:eek:





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[William Woods]

Every time I see Mr. Edgar respond to something that Mr. Dean posts, I know there is going to be a laugh, or at least a possum smile.

The wallet in my rear pocket prohibits my slide down that slippery slope of fine gun collecting. How I do enjoy hearing about those 16 GA guns though.

[edgarspencer]

William, stay tuned, for our summer roadshow schedule.

[Dean Romig]

William, stay tuned, for our summer roadshow schedule.

TBA :whistle:





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[Lloyd McKissick]

The ongoing balmy winter weather here in Colorado allowed for a very nice Polar Bear Shoot with the Rocky Mountain Vintagers last Saturday. As usual, many nice side by sides were on display and being used on the clay games we were playing, including two Parker hammerguns. Mine is a #1 frame fishtail gun and another Vintager brought a #2 frame lifter (his is actually a two barrel, two gauge composed set now, a very neat combination btw). Comparing the two guns was quite a revelation for me in that the #2 gun is noticeably more substantial than mine. That lifter mechanism never fails to impress but...#2 guns would clearly be too-heavy for my upland aspirations. For targets, absolutely, but not for all day carry in the grouse woods. A valuable lesson for me, I must say.

I saw another gun there that I initially mistook for a Parker, only to discover that it was an early Philadelphia Fox Sterlingworth "pin" gun (I had forgotten about those).

[Arthur Shaffer]

Lloyd

I know this is the Parker Board (and Section) but this seems to be a thread that is straddling the line with "Other Doubles". I think you have hit around the edges of an important point. From the period of hammer doubles in the US, the lightweight and/or small bore double is rare and relatively expensive as compared to larger heavier guns. They are wonderful when found but can be quite costly for experimentation. Conversely, English and Continental doubles are readily available, both as 6-1/2 # quick handling 12 gauges and 6# 16 gauge guns. I have a whole section of a gun room full of them. If someone came to me and asked "Where should I look for lightweight quick handling hammer upland guns" my advise would be a German, Italian or French from the 1910 to 1930's period. There a scores of guns from which to pick. The German guns are remarkably robust without excessive weight and the French guns can range from quirky to absolutely beautiful. Higher grade Belgian guns also qualify but only from the better makers. My pick would be a 16 ga at around 6 pounds even for an all around upland gun. Keep in mind that Germany for most of it's shooting history has had lifetime limits on the number of guns you may own. In that environment, the single most commonly encountered gun is a light 16. Sauer models are common in the market. I have stopped buying any (although will look at high grade models) but have purchased many for less than $1000. I purchased one very high grade Belgian model in new condition for this price which is the most impressive hammer gun I have ever handled.

English hammer guns tend to be earlier than this period and almost exclusively 12 ga.

If you want to experiment in the whole concept, this is the place to do it. After that, let your heart guide you into the more expensive market.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I should quickly point out that these comments are regarding hammer guns only. The US can provide as many nice small bore light upland guns as you would like to play with, just in hammerless guns.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Art, love hunting with hammer guns. When I do I'm typically by myself. And yes, I like my English guns the best, but also have 2 Parkers, a Belgian, and German hammer gun.
WW GREENER 12 ga sidelever
G. Forrester 20 ga, with 2 sets of barrels.
30 in barrels on both.

[Arthur Shaffer]

That's a beautiful sidelever Harold! I have a couple of light Parker hammers, but they are a couple I bought due to them being relatively hard to find types to fill slots and they are more display guns than solid users. One for instance is an O frame 16 gauge top lever transition model hammer gun. I bought it cheap, addressed some issues and have it as a representative example of the type. I don't consider it robust enough to hunt with but it serves it's place. I have quite a few lighter 12 and 10 hammer guns, but they are not my idea of upland guns in the desired sense. On the other hand, almost every hammerless I own is a classic upland gun, simply because those are the guns that I use and enjoy and they are relatively easy to find.

On the other end of the spectrum I own an English 8 bore hammer gun circa 1874-75 that is as light as a lot of the 12 bore Parker hammer guns I own. It is short barreled and has plenty of wall thickness but is just a very trim and light 8 gauge (how often do you get to use that term?

[Lloyd McKissick]

Art:

Thank you for being the voice of reason here.

It sounds like you've been walking on this particular path well before me. I've seen some decent Husqvarna hammerguns that would work (16s and very light) and I have seen other very light French game guns (Damon Petrik for one) that would be right in the ball park. The Europeans seem to have settled on the 16-gauge for many of the same reasons that I'm a fan and built their guns accordingly.

Unfortunately... my bias tends to lean me towards the American and then the English stuff and I'm on the trail of another Brit as I write this. Light British 12s fascinate me I fear.

Time will tell however.

Impressive hammers Mr. Pickens, and used on quail and ruffies no less! Very neat.

My version of the sidelever...

http://i.imgur.com/It8mxmxh.jpg (https://imgur.com/It8mxmx)

A converted-pinfire Lang.

[Bill Murphy]

Art, who is the maker of your light eight?