Runge and possibly Del Grego records

[Paul Wade]

Any one know of how I can research? I have a Remington era PGCA lettered DHE I suspect was engraved by Runge. I doubt it was refurbished so Del Grego is not as important other than I know they did some work together. I have reached out to Remington but they have informed me that they don’t have Parker records.

Any points in a decent direction would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your help.

[Brian Dudley]

If it was factory built in the time that Runge was working there, then he would have possibly engraved it or parts of it.

If it was a custom engraved gun done after Remington stopped production, the. It would likely be signed by him.

At this point, getting any actual records to support what you are looking for it likely not possible.

[Alfred Houde]

Not sure what else can be found outside of the historical letter. I don't know the status of the Remington Museum. I do know that Remington did have some Parker records when they were in Ilion, but I don't know the situation or plans at their current location. They told me that they planned on reopening the museum at their new location, but that was some time ago.

You could post clear images of your DHE here, as there are some knowledgeable members who could ID Runge engraving, and possibly if it was restored by Delgrego at some point. The date of original manufacture could help as well.

[Brian Dudley]

The museum items are being sold off.
Any records that remington had, the PGCA has. And that is what the research letters come from.

[John Davis]

Runge/Del Grego upgrade

[Paul Wade]

Thank you all for your willingness to help. Here are detailed pictures

[Paul Wade]

Here is letter with personal info redacted.

[John Davis]

Any chance there’s an SG engraved on the stock oval or grip cap?

[Paul Wade]

Any chance there’s an SG engraved on the stock oval or grip cap?

There is not an oval and grip cap is a clean slate. Don’t know if replaced or polished off. Pic in case it is meaningful.

[John Davis]

Beautiful gun

[Brian Dudley]

It is an “upgrade” or custom gun for sure. It is not signed by Runge in his normal location. And it is a bit outside of his usual style.

I would think a gun like that to be signed. Look all over it carefully. Maybe even have it taken apart for inspection.

[Paul Wade]

Beautiful gun

Thank you. I am happy to have it.

[John Davis]

If I had that gun, I might take up Skeet. :rolleyes:

[Paul Wade]

I haven’t shot it yet. But looking forward to it. I just acquired it a month or two ago.
Thoughts on tubes. Was thinking 20Ga for pheasant shoots.

[edgarspencer]

Runge/Del Grego upgrade

John, was your gun commissioned by Shelly Gitman?

[Dean Romig]

Looks like a Pachmayer upgrade.





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[John Davis]

John, was your gun commissioned by Shelly Gitman?

Edgar, I believe it was but I don’t have absolute proof.

[Paul Wade]

It is an “upgrade” or custom gun for sure. It is not signed by Runge in his normal location. And it is a bit outside of his usual style.

I would think a gun like that to be signed. Look all over it carefully. Maybe even have it taken apart for inspection.

No signatures any where that I can see. Interestingly it has a peerless barrel (matching) and is a 1 1/2 frame. Were peerless found on anything other than Grade 8?

So 1937 gun definitely a DHE 1 1/2 frame that has been upgraded including a peerless vent ribbed barrel that the PGCA letter states is the type that was factory original along with a single trigger and bbl selector. Possible upgrade by Pachmayr. every serial I could see is matching (I didn’t remove buttstock all the way but took the screw and enough pins out to take the plate off and look. Pristine on insides that I could see and all and matching numbers that were visible.

Who would you recommend look at this that could possibly help me solve the riddle? Or is this a mystery my progeny will still be trying to solve?

This is my first Parker but have 3 Elsie’s, 2 from 1915 with the Curtis latch balance of my break actions (box and side) are German and Austrian.

[David Noble]

Mr. Wade, could you please post a picture of the rib markings, especially the PEERLESS Steel part?

[Paul Wade]

Mr. Wade, could you please post a picture of the rib markings, especially the PEERLESS Steel part?

Attached. Thank you.

I’ll get full bbl pics on here soon.

[Paul Wade]

Mr. Wade, could you please post a picture of the rib markings, especially the PEERLESS Steel part?

More bbl pics.

[Brian Dudley]

You know that it is a gun that started out as a vent rib DHE and was later on customized and restocked by someone. It is what it is.

Tearing the gun apart to search for signatures and marks would only satisfy your own curiosity as to who did the work. And it is up to you if you want to mess around with that.

[David C Porter]

I knew the Pachmayr engravers & stockmakers during the period that they were doing Parker upgrades. Thie engraving & stock work is not up to that level.

[Bill Murphy]

The "T" marking on the barrel flat would indicate that your barrels were originally Titanic Steel, not Peerless. The rib markings are very well done, but not original Parker Brothers. Shelly Gitman commissioned Robert Runge to upgrade Parkers to have one of each grade and each gauge. John Davis's SAA upgrade is probably not a Gitman gun. I say that because his SAA upgrade is known to be in a private collection, and is likely the only one of that grade and type commissioned by Gitman. That gun and John Davis's gun are identical in engraving patterns. I have never seen a Runge gun with gold line inlays like Paul Wade's gun. However, the spurious marking are very high quality. What a great gun.

[Paul Wade]

You know that it is a gun that started out as a vent rib DHE and was later on customized and restocked by someone. It is what it is.

Tearing the gun apart to search for signatures and marks would only satisfy your own curiosity as to who did the work. And it is up to you if you want to mess around with that.

I get that. Any idea why it would have peerless bbls though? They match the description in the PGCA letter. That's the oddity that has me very curious and yes it is my curiosity only that I am trying to satisfy. But is also an altruistic quest - honoring the gun itself (which I guess is selfishly driven???).

For me, part of the fun of collecting is learning the history of not only the manufacturer and models but the history of a particular gun. I realize that it may never be known and at the end of the day it doesn't matter as I love the gun.

History gets lost - so I am trying to plug any gaps for the next generations.

This Parker is a beautiful, unique and mysterious gun and that is why I acquired it - I am very pleased with it and even if it was a complete fake (which isn't) I would still love it. I do believe it deserves some effort in investigating it's history. I plan to pass this on to one of my sons so I am not interested in the value or its purity per se.

Realizing I may never know, I still want to give it a good try, the particulars of this gun that are mysterious to me are:
1 - When did the upgrade occur?
2 - Who commissioned it?
3 - Who was it commissioned for?
3 - Why didn't the engraver sign this incredibly intricate and beautiful upgrade? (Who did it? Who did they do for?) - I know there are 2 previous owners at least.
4 - Why does it have peerless bbls? That is not standard for a DHE. (It does appear the bbls have been reblued by someone who knew what they were doing as mid rib has been strategically drilled for expansion)
3- Why has receiver been restamped A1S and grade 8. Is that typically done on upgrades?.

So my theories are:
1 - It was an upgrade by a large shop commissioned for a particular individual - Pachmayr or similar (most likely)
2 - It was an upgrade Commissioned by an individual in an attempt to pass it off as a A1S to unknowledgeable purchaser. (not likely but not out of the realm of possibility)
3 - Wild a$$ theory is that it was factory produced by Parker before the transition, someone at Remington decided to upgrade it for a particular person and it was done in house. (not likely but plausible) Any thoughts on that?

I sincerely appreciate any education or information anyone has to share. This is my first Parker and am enjoying learning about them. Truly remarkable guns.

[Paul Wade]

The "T" marking on the barrel flat would indicate that your barrels were originally Titanic Steel, not Peerless. The rib markings are very well done, but not original Parker Brothers. Shelly Gitman commissioned Robert Runge to upgrade Parkers to have one of each grade and each gauge. John Davis's SAA upgrade is probably not a Gitman gun. I say that because his SAA upgrade is known to be in a private collection, and is likely the only one of that grade and type commissioned by Gitman. That gun and John Davis's gun are identical in engraving patterns. I have never seen a Runge gun with gold line inlays like Paul Wade's gun. However, the spurious marking are very high quality. What a great gun.

Thank you! That solves the Peerless question. VERY MUCH appreciated.

Making progress!!!

[Paul Wade]

John Davis's SAA upgrade is probably not a Gitman gun. I say that because his SAA upgrade is known to be in a private collection. I have never seen a Runge gun with gold line inlays like Paul Wade's gun. However, the spurious marking are very high quality. What a great gun.

I have tried to find out what "SAA" means but can't figure it out - just makes me think of Colts :) What does that mean?

To my wild a$$ theory who else engraved for Remington? Runge is apparently eliminated from possibilities.

[Bill Murphy]

The SAA is the Parker Brothers catalog designation for the AA grade single trap gun. S for single, AA for the grade. According to the records and my recollection, only one SAA grade was made by the Parker Brothers and Remington. John Davis owns quite a piece of Parker and Runge history. Runge may or may not have engraved the "one" original Parker SAA gun.

[John Davis]

Bill, I believe there were two known SAA’s made. Always a possibility of more. My “SAA” started life in 1919 as an SC. It was upgraded in 1964? by Runge as signed and dated.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar, I believe it was but I don’t have absolute proof.

Thanks, John. Here is a picture of the shield on my Runge upgraded CHE28. I bought this gun from Pugs, a few years ago, and they told me it was a 'Gitman' gun. I have seen this same motif on other guns, pictured here, but not enough of the shield was shown to see the letters, but I believe it is unique to guns Shelly Gitman had commissioned. My gun is signed by Runge, and it also has the DelGrego stamp on the barrel flats

[John Davis]

First picture is the grip cap of my Shelly Gitman original refurbished SA. The Second picture is the stock oval of my upgraded SAA. As you can see, the initials have been scrubbed from the SAA but the border engraving is similar to other Gitman guns. So, who knows? All I can definitely say is the upgraded SAA was engraved by Runge as it says "Runge Engrav Ilion NY 1963".

[Brian Dudley]

It is not at all uncommon to change the barrel steel markings when doing an upgrade or custom gun.

The upgrade of the gun has nothing to do with the factory. It was done after the fact.

[Bill Murphy]

It is really a Parker tragedy that John Davis's SAA has a destroyed initial plate on his SAA. However, the important thing is that it is a real Runge gun.




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[Rick Roemer]

Thanks, John. Here is a picture of the shield on my Runge upgraded CHE28. I bought this gun from Pugs, a few years ago, and they told me it was a 'Gitman' gun. I have seen this same motif on other guns, pictured here, but not enough of the shield was shown to see the letters, but I believe it is unique to guns Shelly Gitman had commissioned. My gun is signed by Runge, and it also has the DelGrego stamp on the barrel flats

Hi. Would you mind telling or showing what the DelGrego stamp looks like? Thank you

[John Davis]

It is really a Parker tragedy that John Davis's SAA has a destroyed initial plate on his SAA. However, the important thing is that it is a real Runge gun.

Bill, agreed. Except the most important thing is that she has carried me to the 27 yard line in handicap and since I began shooting singles with her in June of this year she's racked up five 100 straights.

[Brian Dudley]

Hi. Would you mind telling or showing what the DelGrego stamp looks like? Thank you


I have personally observed one or two delgrego restocked guns as being stamped “LDG” snd the year. I think it was in the guard inletting as I recall.

On all the others, the comb flute is the “signature”.

[Bill Murphy]

John, the most enjoyment I get from my Parkers is shooting them. Some day I will get on the trap range with my collection of singles. This may be the year.

[edgarspencer]

Hi. Would you mind telling or showing what the DelGrego stamp looks like? Thank you

LDG inside a circle

[Daryl Corona]

Did he mark all his guns this way?

[Dean Romig]

Did he mark all his guns this way?

Not always. Depends on when these guns were done or upgraded.





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[Bob Jurewicz]

Here is the signing by Runge on a 20 GA A1S upgrade.
It reads as best I can tell:
ENGRAVED REPRODUCTION R RUNGE ILION NY 72
Bob Jurewicz

[edgarspencer]

If I am remembering this correctly, a while back, a member was in contact with a Runge family member regarding having a look at his records. Did anyone get access to them?

Much like the random manner DelGrego marked some guns. and not others, with the stamp I previously posted, Runge signed his upgrade differently, from gun to gun. Some with a date (year) others without. I suppose, without the random nature these craftsmen executed their work, our curiosity wouldn't be peaked so often. Perhaps this randomness adds a facet to our quest for answers. In a perfect world, there would be a unique answer for every question, but life would become less interesting.

[Dean Romig]

People who visited the DelGregos were shown the Parker Brothers books they had in their possession if they asked to see them but I have never heard of anyone being granted permission to peruse the books for specific information.
However, I had never been there and don’t have first hand experience. Others have seen them and should respond with their experiences.





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[edgarspencer]

Since the topic of this thread refers to Runge, and Runge/DelGrego upgrades, The Parker records have little to do with the topic. My comment was in reference to an old thread about a RUNGE family member, in possession of her father's records.

[Dean Romig]

Sorry…





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[edgarspencer]

Sorry…:::bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

The Runge records, the Del Grego records, the Parker records, are three different things, completely unrelated.

[John Davis]

Edgar, I remember the thread and my vague recollection is nothing came of it.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar, I remember the thread and my vague recollection is nothing came of it.

Found it:
https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25988&highlight=Runge+daughter