Parker vs L.C. Smith guns

[Steve McCarty]

I'm not a big time collector...not rich, but over the years I have purchased some nice old guns. I own two Parkers, a GH 12 and an SBT C grade. Nice guns. I also own an L.C. Smith (Elsie if you will) and I like it. Mine is a basic edition of the gun, an O grade Probably made around 1900. My GH was probably made at the same time. (I have not researched either gun.) The Elsie balances nicely, works fine, has nice damascus barrels, as does my GH. So tell me all of you gun gurus out there....which is better? BTW: I kind of like the feel and heft of the Elsie.

[Dylan Rhodes]

Which do you like? That one is better.

I guess the only thing worth mentioning to me is that the LC's have a bad rap about cracking behind the lock plates, and you can see this corroborated by browsing available guns on the common auction sites. Also, the action on those is much more complicated, and they made many more of them. The rest is opinion...but they seem to be heavier.

if your asking which one is higher "grade" of gun - the GH definitely. Its a few steps up the ladder for Parkers offering (Trojan, VH, PH, GH) where the 0 grade was rung one to LC.

[Timothy Cicora]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder .

With that said. Beauty ? My opinion . I would have to give the nod to the LC's . The side lock guns in my my opinion look classier . Box lock guns really have to Jazz it up to play catch up . There is a reason in my opinion why some manufactures add false side plates to box lock guns.

Better as in durability ? My opinion . I will have to say I will give that to Parker . As mentioned there is a lot going on with the side locks. Finicky . Pressure on the plates and screws. ect. Wood issues .

Better as in handling ? My opinion . That's up to you. I like all types of shotguns. I shoot all types / brands of shotguns so that's part of the fun for me. If I was super serious about shooting scores I would stick to one brand and gauge .

[Lloyd McKissick]

LC Smith is a case study in how things can devolve over time. I'll spare you the history lesson (although it is a very interesting story) but simply put, it all started in Syracuse, New York with a small maker who largely hand-made very effectively designed shotguns. They were initially funded (& named) by Lyman C. Smith, a larger-than-life industrialist (who went on to build his own skyscraper in Seattle). Another big New York industrialist family, the Hunter Brothers, bought the original company from Mr. Smith (Lyman's next big adventure was building typewriters, ever hear of Smith-Corona?) they then moved the entire gunmaking operation to Fulton, New York. In Fulton, the Hunters (essentially 5 brothers who got a job in a company bought by their father) set about to scale-up (modify) the original LC Smith shotgun design to better facilitate mass-production. It took them about 25-years but Hunter Arms finally "succeeded", eventually ramping-up production to churn out about a half a million guns. The earlier products (from Syracuse) were essentially works of art, with even the entry level guns (Quality 2) being very well finished, the last guns (in the 1940s) were cheapened to the point where they barely resembled the original design. Pre-1913, Smith guns were still well made (w/lots of hand-assembly & finishing), post 1913...well, it became something of a crapshoot after that. Higher-end guns could still be quite artfully executed, but the vast majority were bottom-end guns (i.e., the "Field Grades") and they got progressively less well-made over time. They switched from English walnut stocks to American walnut around then and the infamous stock cracking problems became more pronounced.

If yours is an "O" grade gun then it's pre-1913 and should be a fairly decent firearm. It's a sidelock while your Parkers are boxlock guns so... there are some differences in geometry. But the rest of it is mostly just advertising (Elsies are the crudest of the sidelock designs when compared to the British versions). I "rediscovered" Elsie a few years ago (my first double was an inherited Elsie Field Grade) and I've thoroughly enjoyed the education (& the history lesson).

http://i.imgur.com/UIWaZACh.png (https://imgur.com/UIWaZAC)

A 1940s gun as compared to an 1891 gun.

http://i.imgur.com/ApwQnqQh.jpg (https://imgur.com/ApwQnqQ)

A 1st year Fulton gun (1890), made from actions & wood supplied by the earlier Syracuse operation. Compare it to the 1940s gun above.

[John Davis]

“which is better?”

The Parker.

[Brian Dudley]

When it comes to Smiths, I am not really a fan.

[Dave Noreen]

All of the vintage North American doubles have their issues but while Alexander T. Brown's rotary bolt was a good idea, much of the rest of the hammerless L.C. Smith design was not. Read Dewey's assessment of them and you'd send them all down the river of commerce.

I own all the others, Parker, Fox (all three companies), Ithaca, Baker, Remington & Lefever and many of the more obscure makes Tobin, Baltimore Arms, the American Arms Co. Whitmore, Parry, etc., but no L.C. Smiths.

[Steve McCarty]

My Elsie is an "O" grade which means it came before the "00" grade and made sometime prior to or in 1913. My Elsie has very nice wood. Not a whit of engraving anywhere. Damascus barrels, but it is very difficult to see the twist pattern. My GH is about the same age and also has very nice wood except for the forearm which is in pretty lousy shape, checkering almost gone, so someone shot the dickens out of it. F & F. The damascus pattern is not too clear. Both guns are pretty heavy. They are really quite similar and indeed the Elsie is a side lock which I prefer to the box lock, but of course the engraving on the GH is rather nice, a bit understated. Elsie has zip engraving...too bad.

[Steve McCarty]

All of the vintage North American doubles have their issues but while Alexander T. Brown's rotary bolt was a good idea, much of the rest of the hammerless L.C. Smith design was not. Read Dewey's assessment of them and you'd send them all down the river of commerce.

I own all the others, Parker, Fox (all three companies), Ithaca, Baker, Remington & Lefever and many of the more obscure makes Tobin, Baltimore Arms, the American Arms Co. Whitmore, Parry, etc., but no L.C. Smiths.

I admire your shotgun collection, Researcher. I've got a Remington 1900, an American Arms Co (Knickerbocher) 20, Fox Sterly 12, Parker GH and SBT (C grade), Lefever I grade (Keith Kershur gun), Astra 12 nice engraving), W.C. Scott (It's in the mail), 2 Browning Auto fives (12 & 16), 2 Winchester Model 12s (12 &16) an SKB O/U 20, Miroku O/U 12, A Remy Model 31 TC...That's about it for shotguns. The prettiest one is the Auto five sixteen and the one I like to shoot the most is the Winy Model 12 16. It's a tight F choke. I also like to shoot the Remy 1900, it's light. My best gun is a mint artillery Lugar w holster. My great uncle got it off of a German officer in WWI. I asked him for details of how he got it. His reply, "He didn't need it anymore".

[Lloyd McKissick]

Elsies are big heavy American guns and they certainly have their detractors but...I have an nostalgic attachment to them still.

http://i.imgur.com/bP3snMnh.jpg (https://imgur.com/bP3snMn)

I even like their hammer guns (although I mostly use them all for targets).

[Timothy Cicora]

I do like the Single sighting plane feature on some of the Smiths.

[Steve McCarty]

Nice Elcies! Your gun on the left looks a lot like my "0" grade. Same kind of mottled finish on the side locks. Wood on my gun looks about the same and yes, my gun is kind of heavy. I wonder if most of the weight is in the barrels. Very neat hammer gun. Nice picture.

[Lloyd McKissick]

Thankyou Mr. McCarty.

The hammerless version is a very early Quality 1 gun (the precursor to the Quality O) with Laminated Steel barrels.

The hammer is an "F" grade Damascus gun (the 30-inch 2-Bar tubeset with the forend weighs 4-lbs) from 1901...

http://i.imgur.com/lnlmd0xh.jpg (https://imgur.com/lnlmd0x)

It actually fits me better than my new "O" grade Parker hammer (longer LOP and w/less drop) but the Parker is lighter by almost 1/2 of a pound. With a cinch-on pad and a little practice I'll be ready for the Fall.

[Dave Noreen]

an American Arms Co (Knickerbocher) 20,

Your Knickerbocker is by American Gun Co., N.Y. a "trade name" used on guns manufactured by New York City's H & D Folsom Arms Co.'s Crescent Fire Arms Co. factory in Norwich, Conn. and marketed by H & D Folsom. Why they used the American Gun Co. name up through WW-I and reverted to using the Crescent Fire Arms Co. name after the war is lost to time.

134810

The A.E. Whitmore designed hammerless shotgun I was referring to was made by American Arms Co. of Boston, Mass., George H. Fox's company. No relation to Ansley.

134808

134809

[Steve McCarty]

Thanks, Researcher for the info on my dad's "Knickerbocker" 20. His father (My paternal grandfather) bought the gun for my dad when he was 10. He bought it from the person who was a championship trap shooter in Kansas. My dad shot that gun for his entire life and I never once saw him miss a single shot. He had it refreshed in the fifties sometime. It is a little care worn today. It is kind of stiff when I cock it. Bores are perfect and it is an old school 20 gauge shotgun, which is neat. My dad was a champion debater in college. He became an Army pilot in the War and flew in Pan American until he retired. He knew a million limericks. He ended up being a captain on the Seven fourty seven. He sang barbarshop. In short, he was a star, and so was my mother. She said that she never tried out for a part in a play when she didn't get the lead. They have been gone for a long time, but their memory survives.

[Garry L Gordon]

Thanks, Researcher for the info on my dad's "Knickerbocker" 20. His father (My paternal grandfather) bought the gun for my dad when he was 10. He bought it from the person who was a championship trap shooter in Kansas. My dad shot that gun for his entire life and I never once saw him miss a single shot. He had it refreshed in the fifties sometime. It is a little care worn today. It is kind of stiff when I cock it. Bores are perfect and it is an old school 20 gauge shotgun, which is neat. My dad was a champion debater in college. He became an Army pilot in the War and flew in Pan American until he retired. He knew a million limericks. He ended up being a captain on the Seven fourty seven. He sang barbarshop. In short, he was a star, and so was my mother. She said that she never tried out for a part in a play when she didn't get the lead. They have been gone for a long time, but their memory survives.


Love thy father and thy mother. :clap:

[Craig Larter]

L.C. Smith made some lovely guns. Fulton is 30 miles from my duck club and being a life long western NY resident, I have a special interest in then. Every week in the summer, I drive through Fulton to my dog trainer's grounds and pass by the site of the old long gone factory. I also pass through Phoenix NY birthplace of Burt Becker.

[Bill Murphy]

Not an ugly gun, Craig.

[Garry L Gordon]

The early Smiths are beautifully made guns and generally without the stock issues caused by shoving too much into the later made guns.

Smiths and Parkers have a tendency to be heavy. I don't think there's a clear winner on this aspect. If you want lighter American doubles, try the Fox and Ithaca (especially the Flues model).

These guns are well made American classics. Worthy of our admiration...and continued use.

[Dave Noreen]

L.C. Smith had access to some great engravers, members of the Glahn family, Spangler and Hunter Arms in-house man Albert Kraus. Nice engraving on, as Dewey called it a " Rube-Goldbergian design."

[Lloyd McKissick]

Researcher, that "Rube-Goldbergian" design has lasted for a long time now (from 1886 to the present day) and it has killed a veritable mountain of game over those intervening years. Like it or don't like it, that's fine (& I know Dewey is sick of working on the many later versions). Crapping on it here is not making you any points.

[Lloyd McKissick]

http://i.imgur.com/maqV6Qdh.jpg (https://imgur.com/maqV6Qd)

http://i.imgur.com/s2mqwiZh.jpg (https://imgur.com/s2mqwiZ)

http://i.imgur.com/QiQPPS5h.jpg (https://imgur.com/QiQPPS5)

A comparison between Smith and Parker hammers. The 1901 Smith is in better shape here (cleaner, w/more recent work having been done on it) but the 1887 Parker #1 frame gun is about a half-pound lighter (which makes a surprising difference) and the straight grip makes it feel like it's quicker to mount.

Is there a better way to get this nasty "brown mung" off of this old Parker?

[Daryl Corona]

With all due respect Mr. Mckissick, the OP asked for opinions on which gun was better. That's what he got from Mr. Noreen, who has forgotten more about guns than every member on this board ever knew. As does Dewey. I challenge anyone to find a more qualified gunsmith. It's the ole Ford vs. Chevy thing so let's keep it civil here.

[Mike Koneski]

I had a few Smiths over the years. Operative word is HAD. I have plenty of Parker and Lefever guns. Even a few Ithaca and Crescent to boot. My two cents, I'd take any Parker over a Smith any day.

[Lloyd McKissick]

Double Lab: Mr. Noreen is a spectacular resource, no doubt, but it was unnecessary for him to berate the maker any further and I calls 'em as I sees 'em. In my world that is not being uncivil.

Mr. Mountain: like Mr. Noreen, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are clearly ignorant of the better, earlier Smiths.

[Chuck Bishop]

Dumb topic. Calls for opinions. There are no answers to the question.

[Daryl Corona]

Dumb topic. Calls for opinions. There are no answers to the question.

My point exactly. Thank you your eminence. (As Toolman would say):bowdown::)

[Mike Koneski]

Double Lab: Mr. Noreen is a spectacular resource, no doubt, but it was unnecessary for him to berate the maker any further and I calls 'em as I sees 'em. In my world that is not being uncivil.

Mr. Mountain: like Mr. Noreen, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are clearly ignorant of the better, earlier Smiths.

I’m very well aware of the earlier Smiths. It’s a personal choice and everyone has choices, and opinions. I personally do not like shooting LCS guns. I don’t like cats either. Just sayin’.

[allen newell]

Cats purr too much

[Timothy Cicora]

Wow . I was one of the first responders to Stepmac.

I'm mainly a shooter and like all types of shotguns. I'm pretty new to this forum and don't post much. I am not new to firearms. I don't have a collection to try and legitimize or have anybody I need to back up on the forum . I respect people who have great knowledge but I never seen a need to kiss anyone's ring. I don't do guns as a business.

It was nice to see there is a segment on this forum that enjoys other types of shotguns as I do. It's a Parker forum so I was expecting it to lean heavy toward Parkers . From what I seen it wasn't a land slide. I think it would probably be the same on the LC site.

I was hoping to see some more people say why they think Parkers / LC's are better ?

Examples :

I have shot the best scores with a Parker . So, I have to say Parker. They fit me best.

I have a safe full of different shotguns but I always seem to pull out the LC's . So its LC's for me .

I'm in the business of buying and selling shotguns. Parkers seem to be the best for me because for me they hold value.

I had them both. For me I was always working on my LC's so I switched to Parkers. Been going good for me for years . So Parkers for me .

Have them both . My Parker let me down on some hunts but my LC never did . So for me it has to be an LC.

Nothing crazy . Just gun people sharing their experiences.


How about those examples . ?

[Mike Koneski]

OK. I had three Smith guns. Two I didn’t shoot very well no matter what I did. The third was a two barrel set Specialty grade 12g. I did OK with it but it had the Hunter One trigger. I figured I’d move that gun before it had trigger issues as repairing a Hunter One takes a Swiss watchmaker.

I didn’t like the “feel” of the Smiths either. Parkers and Lefevers both fit me well and have that feel that put me on birds and turn targets into diesel smoke.

Another plus for Parker and Lefevers is most double-gunsmiths will work on them. Certain repairs I can do too. I know gunsmiths that will not touch an LCS gun for love or money.

I have good friends that shoot Smiths as well as other American made doubles. Their choice. As long as they’re shooting is what matters.

[Timothy Cicora]

Mike - Similar issue with a LC specialty grade double I had . I was in love with it because I shot it well and I liked all the features it had. I was warned by just about everyone about how finnicky those single trigger Smiths could be.

The trigger went sideways at our state shoot and thank the Lord I had finished shooting trap doubles and wobble trap. It started to only fire the left barrel !

I didn't want to listen to everyone telling me to convert it to double triggers . After someone explained and showed my how it worked , its not too terribly complicated.

You still have to have the parts and resources to fix it. I sent it out to Jerry Andrews and he sorted it out. He said he didn't know how it even worked for as long as it did. It's been wonderful ever since.

I still love the gun .... For now . You never know what may come your way. That's the fun of it for me.

[Craig Larter]

I enjoy collecting and shooting both, but I own 14 Parkers and two Smith's. I guess you would call me a confirmed Parker guy. Why, because I prefer the looks of a Parker and they were made in wider variety of gauges, barrel lengths and action types.
I have also made room in my gun collection for a bunch of Foxes and two Lefevers. From my experience Parkers and Foxes are the most robust, Smiths and Lefevers are not as robust.

[Bill Murphy]

Craig, I have a similar array of the American "big four". My question is why a Lefever or a double trigger Smith is not robust. I will admit that a single trigger Smith is a bit of a challenge.

[Steve McCarty]

Craig, I have a similar array of the American "big four". My question is why a Lefever or a double trigger Smith is not robust. I will admit that a single trigger Smith is a bit of a challenge.

My Lefever is a plain jane I grade, but she is a real beauty. She is also light and quick. A really fine little shotgun, two trigger, damascus, all original. The safety is stiff. I've been to several gunsmiths with it and none of them will touch it. Liability they say.

[Lloyd McKissick]

Liability??? What a bunch of pansy bedwetters...

You need a real gunsmith, not some Gen Z weenie.

[todd allen]

I have never missed a target over double triggers, but I did miss a target with a single trigger when I slipped my finger behind the single trigger and tried to pull the back of the trigger guard

[Steve McCarty]

Liability??? What a bunch of pansy bedwetters...

You need a real gunsmith, not some Gen Z weenie.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. I've been futzing with the little Lefever today and I can get along with the stiff safety okay. It is a beautiful but plain shotgun. 12. Keith Kerschur did some work on it. I like G grade Lefevers, but do not own one.

[Lloyd McKissick]

My very first Damascus gun was a G-grade Lefever ( back in the early 90s) and the nicest American double I've ever handled was a C-grade Lefever in 16 with B-grade engraving.

They can be exceptionally nice guns.

[Steve McCarty]

I agree that my GH Parker is a better gun than my O grade L.C. Smith. And thank you for all of the imput I had from my post asking that question.

I bought my GH Parker from the Nosler gun store in Bend Oregon in 2011. At the time I was led to believe that the gun was a garden variety Parker. Now, and after a decade of reading about it I have deduced that it is a much better than that. My question is, is my GH a midgrade Parker?

[John Davis]

Your GH is the highest of the low grade Parkers. A DH is the lowest of the high grade Parkers.

[Dean Romig]

Researcher, that "Rube-Goldbergian" design has lasted for a long time now (from 1886 to the present day) and it has killed a veritable mountain of game over those intervening years. Like it or don't like it, that's fine (& I know Dewey is sick of working on the many later versions). Crapping on it here is not making you any points.


Researcher doesn’t need to make any points here, he arrived fully armed with points.




.

[Dean Romig]

I have never missed a target over double triggers, but I did miss a target with a single trigger when I slipped my finger behind the single trigger and tried to pull the back of the trigger guard


Operator error…




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